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Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Audie said:
Some of us here feel that the evident fixation on "rape"
has something a bit off about it, and find it distasteful-among other things-for anyone to continue this line of discussion. Plz dont encourage it.
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Alright. I will try to get him to concentrate on his errors without bringing up rape. I can understand how it can be a sensitive issue to some posters. And it is a particularly bad one since the Bible is not consistent on the matter.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Phantasman said:
"Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.- Secret James

Obviously, the catholic priests didn't believe this. I do. It's not in the Bible, yet the Spirit reveals whether it's knowledge or not. It does not challenge Paul's 1 Corinthians 13 use of the words in order, but Paul places emphasis on the importance of where faith leads.


"Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment."- Gospel of Philip

The orthodox priests do not want man to follow the Spirit. They want to interpret the Spirit for man. They fall short when one see's them for what they are.

God gave NO man the right to say what is truth and what isn't. Spiritual gnosis from the Spirit reveals Christ in a way the OT ignorance doesn't.

"But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. Truth is one single thing; it is many things and for our sakes to teach about this one thing in love through many things. The rulers (archons) wanted to deceive man, since they saw that he had a kinship with those that are truly good. They took the name of those that are good and gave it to those that are not good, so that through the names they might deceive him and bind them to those that are not good. And afterward, what a favor they do for them! They make them be removed from those that are not good and place them among those that are good. These things they knew, for they wanted to take the free man and make him a slave to them forever."- Gospel of Philip

All the verses about edify the Gospels and Paul, while closing the door on those who never knew the Father. They line up with Christs teachings perfectly (where the OT does not). It solves the mystery spoken by Christ and Paul.
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Are you actually talking to me? I'm not a Catholic nor am I Eastern Orthodox. I love the scriptures, and much of the NT was written to refute and discount the gnosticism you advocate.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It Aint Necessarily So said:
There is no such thing as an objective moral value. If there were, you could show it rather than just talk about it.

This was already explained to you, and you declined to comment, much less offer a rebuttal. Presumably, if you could have explained why the argument was incorrect, you would have. Merely offering the opposite conclusion without an explanation for why you disagree with the specifics of the argument gets you nowhere.

The argument still stands.



Some have even here on RF. But that is irrelevant. One can only speak of one's own moral values.

What I and many others say is that there is no objective morality. Moral values are not objects or attached to objects. They are subjective beliefs. They do not exist out in space independent from moral agents. They don't reveal themselves to the eye, or in a telescope or microscope like other objectively real things do.



You can only say that rape is wrong to you. Others may agree - perhaps universally - but that still doesn't make any moral precept objectively real or even true.

A collection of subjective beliefs, even if all identical, remains a collection of subjective beliefs. It does not become objective just by being commonplace or universal.
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Respectfully, rape is always wrong among humans, and not just to me.

Unfortunately, skeptics will not open the door to moral absolutes, with their implication for a god.
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
What is a supposed "objective truth" in the Bible? How do you know it is an "objective truth"? You are conflating your inability to understand morals with immorality in others.




Once again you contradict yourself. Zeke screwed up big time. SkepticThinker already spilled the beans with a twofer.
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Now, if someone could just clue me in on how the heck to pronounce "Tyre", I'll be all set! :p
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
SkepticThinker said:
I don't generalize like you do, I guess.

There are plenty of places in the world where people have no access to proper educational facilities and resources and will therefore never even get a chance to share their ideas with the world. So I don't think you can just claim one group of people is smarter than another based on Nobel Prize winners. You're free to believe whatever you want, of course.


Apparently, whether or not you believe anybody's prophecies have come true depend on your agenda and/or your subjective viewpoint then. That's not hard to do when they're as vague as they are.

Muslims will say their prophecies have come true, you say they haven't.
You say Christian prophecies have all come true, other say they haven't.
People say Nostradamus' propechies have mostly come true, you say they haven't.

How can we figure this out then?


So you are confirming your confirmation bias. Thank you for being so honest!


Sure it is.

But even if both of your claims are true, so what?

It indicates to me that the Bible can be twisted to say what the reader wants it to say, based on each individual's personal interpretation of its parts.

Atheists don't look to ancient holy books and religious dogma to form their morality, so it says nothing about them.

Tyre was supposed to be destroyed and the land would never be built upon again. Tyre still exists.
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I'm not generalizing, I'm saying Jews kick Gentile butt on an intellectual plane, and the Nobel prize is one of countless examples. You're generalizing when you wish away a 48:1 performance ratio.

Nostradamus was vague, saying things like "the King of the North will cross the Danube," and this being taken for Hitler, who was neither a King nor personally crossed the Danube--Hitler's armies crossed it. Because you are biased, you may have trouble seeing how "Betrayed by a close friend with a kiss on the cheek for 30 pieces of silver" and so on is "vague".

Tyre prophecy rebuttals addressed thoroughly: Ezekiel 26:1-14: A Proof Text For Inerrancy or Fallibility of The Old Testament?
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
BilliardsBall said:
Respectfully, rape is always wrong among humans, and not just to me.

Unfortunately, skeptics will not open the door to moral absolutes, with their implication for a god.
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First demonstrate that your God exists, and then we can go from there in determining whether or not "his" values are objective in nature. Otherwise, I'm sorry, but I'm not taking orders from ancient holy books.

And once again, following dictates from above doesn't really constitute a system of morality. If your Objective Dictator of Morality decides that rape is right or good, you would then have to believe that rape is good or right.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
If your beliefs are subjective then how is rape objectively wrong? It looks like you just contradicted yourself. And please note, just because I know that rape is objectively wrong does not mean that I think that it is always wrong. Your problem is that you do not know how to analyze your feelings logically.
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I'll help you:

I bring a subjective bias to my knowledge of math, including those math precepts I've forgotten, dislike or are yet to learn, but 2+3 is always 5.

I bring a subjective bias to my movie watching, but Star Wars is one of the most popular movies ever, objectively speaking.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
What is a supposed "objective truth" in the Bible? How do you know it is an "objective truth"? You are conflating your inability to understand morals with immorality in others.




Once again you contradict yourself. Zeke screwed up big time. SkepticThinker already spilled the beans with a twofer.
Click to expand...

I've posted rebuttals re: Ezekiel elsewhere today.

An example of an objective truth in the Bible: It is always wrong to disobey God. This is not sometimes wrong or wrong if you feel it's so, it's always so.
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
BilliardsBall said:
I'm not generalizing, I'm saying Jews kick Gentile butt on an intellectual plane, and the Nobel prize is one of countless examples. You're generalizing when you wish away a 48:1 performance ratio.
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Sure you are. And you ignored my response and just repeated the same thing over again.

BilliardsBall said:
Nostradamus was vague, saying things like "the King of the North will cross the Danube," and this being taken for Hitler, who was neither a King nor personally crossed the Danube--Hitler's armies crossed it. Because you are biased, you may have trouble seeing how "Betrayed by a close friend with a kiss on the cheek for 30 pieces of silver" and so on is "vague".
Click to expand...

You told me that the Bible states the exact date that Israel became a nation. That turned out to be inaccurate as we saw when you had to jump through hoops to make it all work out to fit the date that Israel actually became a nation. In actuality, the Bible verses are far more convoluted than you are claiming they are, and just vague enough so that you could fit almost any date you want into it. Perhaps you are having trouble seeing this because you need these prophecies to have been fulfilled in order for your beliefs about the Bible to hold up.

BilliardsBall said:
Tyre prophecy rebuttals addressed thoroughly: Ezekiel 26:1-14: A Proof Text For Inerrancy or Fallibility of The Old Testament?
Click to expand...
I can pull up Tyre on a Google Earth. What more do I need to know about this failed prophecy?
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Audie said:
The British, or those from anywhere in the Empire know how t o pronounce it.
Click to expand...


Really? I thought that they were the confused ones. Tell me how do you spell and pronounce the word for those rubber thingies on your car?

How do you pronounce Tyre the city?

Of course one could say it is like saying read or read.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
BilliardsBall said:
I've posted rebuttals re: Ezekiel elsewhere today.

An example of an objective truth in the Bible: It is always wrong to disobey God. This is not sometimes wrong or wrong if you feel it's so, it's always so.
Click to expand...

Really? Where? Oh don't bother, I will find your errors and correct them for you.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
BilliardsBall said:
I'll help you:

I bring a subjective bias to my knowledge of math, including those math precepts I've forgotten, dislike or are yet to learn, but 2+3 is always 5.

I bring a subjective bias to my movie watching, but Star Wars is one of the most popular movies ever, objectively speaking.
Click to expand...


Math is objective. Taste in movies is not. You still do not know why morals are always objective, including the morals of the Bible.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone said:
Really? I thought that they were the confused ones. Tell me how do you spell and pronounce the word for those rubber thingies on your car?

How do you pronounce Tyre the city?

Of course one could say it is like saying read or read.
Click to expand...

Like tire the american car part
 
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