REGARDING JOHN 5:28-29
1) Regarding John 5:28
Regarding the Early Judeo-Christian concept of souls in a sheol/hades/hell/spirit world. Prestor John and FaithofChristian are describing two separate Christian interpretations. While Prestor John is describing the early Christian interpretation and worldview, FaithofChristian is describing a more modern Christian interpretation. This is not to say the early Christian interpretation is more or less correct than the modern one, merely that they are different. I do not see any advantage in the adoption of the more modern interpretations.
2) Regarding the early Judeo-Christian concept of a cognisant world of spirits :
I agree with Prestor John, and with Hockeycowboy, and with Smogie that the memorial tombs that Jesus describes in Koine are NOT referring to unbelieving, living individuals (i.e. the "spiritually dead"). Rather, the "memorial tombs" in this specific verse are referring to actual memorial tombs that encase dead physical bodies of individuals who lived previously, but are now dead.
I do not see the advantage of adopting FaithofChristian's interpretation on this point but instead, believe the ancient Christian interpretations are more clear, less "convoluted" and correspond much more coherently and rationally to the early Judeo-Christian literature than FaithofChristian's suggested interpretation.
Clear
φιφιτω
Seeing you have no concept of who the Spiritual dead are.
The Spiritual dead are, people who disbelieve in God and Christ Jesus.
Like the Atheist or anyone, who do not believe in God or Christ Jesus, Therefore they are Spiritual dead to God and Christ Jesus.
Who can call them the Unbelievers or the Spiritual dead. either way, they do not believe in God or Christ Jesus.
So they are Spiritual dead.unbelievers of God and Christ Jesus.
FaithofChristian, To respond that I have no concept of "who the spiritual dead are" is illogical since I offered the same definition as you ("unbelieving individuals..."). Moreover, this irrational response does nothing to support your theory.
Please be at peace on this issue. I am not saying that your creation of modern personal interpretation is a bad thing, but I am saying that the ancient Christian interpretations and worldviews seem, to me, to be more logical and more rational and more coherent than your interpretation.
Prestor John,
Hockeycowboy, and
Smogie have all made valid and correct points regarding your personal theory and interpretation of John 5:28-29 and why it is incoherent historically.
For example,
Hockeycowboy corrrectly pointed out that when Christ says "
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the [memorial] tombs will hear his voice and come forth..." he is speaking of the actual memorial tombs, not of a "spiritually dead" person. The greek here is ""..
.οτι ερχεται ωρα εν η παντεσ εν τοισ μνημειοισ ακουσουσιν τησ φωνησ αυτου...".
A ”
μνημα” IS a “tomb” or a “monument” and it is not the individual. For example, BGU IV. 1024.iv.23 of 4-5 a.d. speaks of those “
coming to [the] tomb/monument of their loved one” (εφθασεν εις το μνημα τ[ης φι]λης αυτου”). It is a memorial tomb being described. Moltons example from Kaibel S2.1 of 4 b.c. demonstrates the same exact usage.
No other metaphorical use in the early literature supports your unusual and bizarre meaning.
For example, in P. Flor I. 9.10 of 225 a.d., the plural form μνημειον also refers to multiple memorial tombs of a village. The Phrase «
φθασαντος μου προς τοις μναιμιοις της αυτης κωμης is describing a person who comes to (visits) the
memorial tombs in their own village. This term is not used in the early literature for the “spiritually dead person” but instead, refers to a “memorial tomb” as
hockeycowboy pointed out. In fact even the base word
μνημη refers to a
memory. For example, one may use
μνημην ποιεισθαι in the sense of making mention of something (and thus bring it to current memory). P Ryl II.233.12 of 2 a.d. speak of “
having fresh in his mind (memory) the prices of the fittings which he buys…” εχων θπογυως εν μνημηι τας τιμας ων αγοραζει εχαρτισμων.
P. Oxy II 237.vi.30 of 186 a.d. uses the term referring to a lord who exercises “
their divine memory and unerring judgment” in considering a letter written to them. This IS the meaning of the term inside early Christian worldviews.
For example, the same base word is used in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, “
remembering before our God and Father…” (grk = μνημονευοντες υμων....) .
In 1 Thessalonians 2:9 the word is used to say
“For you remember our labor…” (grk = Μνημονευετε γαρ, αδελφοι, τον κοπον ημων...)
In Hebrews 13:7 it used the same way : “
Remember our leaders…” (grk = Μνημονευετε των εγουμενων υμων...)
Even when it is used in the form of
Μνημονειον in P. Oxy X 1282.22 of a.d. 83, it refers to a “
record-office” where “memories of transactions” are stored in written form.
The point in offering multiple examples simply shows that the word as used in John 5:28-29 refers to “memorial tombs” (as
hockeycowboy pointed out to you). For early Judeo-Christians, it never had the modern meaning you are attempting to give it. As I said, I am merely pointing out that the early Christian interpretations are, in my mind, better and more rational and more accurate than these modern interpretations and theories such as you are attempting to create and support. I think theorizing and creating models is good, but this specific point will not work inside historical Christian Usage.
In any case
FaithofChristian, I hope your spiritual journey is good
Clear
φυφιτωω
