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"Not to share one’s wealth with the poor is to steal from them"?

Scott C.

Just one guy
Not to share one’s wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. (Malachi 3:8-10)

God uses the term "rob" to refer to the witholding of tithes and offerings to him, which offerings are used at least in part, to provide "meat" for the needy.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Note how Pope Paul refers to the "servitude of the oppressed" poor under such an economic system, which I believe is essentially what you were saying with regards to the slavery analogy.

Yeah, that's essentially what I was thinking about. There are a few other dimensions that were coming to mind, too.

Another result of industrialization and the spread of capitalism was the dismantling subsistence living and replacing it with total dependence on being employed. To be fair, this shift was in process before either of these movements, but it really took off when they hit. Industrialization saw increased urbanization and dwindling land ownership. Fewer and fewer could say that most of their vital needs were met by the land they owned and farmed. Instead, most became dependent on employment. In a fashion, we created another sort of slavery - if you don't have a job, you die. A person's worth and value became distilled down to a dollar sign and employment. Gone are the days where you could have a small family farm and be relatively independent and self-sufficient (aka, the economy could crash and you wouldn't care). It's ironic, given how much my country enshrines independence and autonomy. I'm not sure we realized we were selling ourselves out as we were making some of these big social changes. :sweat:

All that said, dependence is not in of itself a bad thing. If we aren't dependent on an economic system for our survival, we're dependent on something else. I suppose I just prefer the "good old days" when our dependence was more directly tied to the land without these intermediary human constructs. It's a Pagan thing. :D
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, that's essentially what I was thinking about. There are a few other dimensions that were coming to mind, too.

Another result of industrialization and the spread of capitalism was the dismantling subsistence living and replacing it with total dependence on being employed. To be fair, this shift was in process before either of these movements, but it really took off when they hit. Industrialization saw increased urbanization and dwindling land ownership. Fewer and fewer could say that most of their vital needs were met by the land they owned and farmed. Instead, most became dependent on employment. In a fashion, we created another sort of slavery - if you don't have a job, you die. A person's worth and value became distilled down to a dollar sign and employment. Gone are the days where you could have a small family farm and be relatively independent and self-sufficient (aka, the economy could crash and you wouldn't care). It's ironic, given how much my country enshrines independence and autonomy. I'm not sure we realized we were selling ourselves out as we were making some of these big social changes. :sweat:

All that said, dependence is not in of itself a bad thing. If we aren't dependent on an economic system for our survival, we're dependent on something else. I suppose I just prefer the "good old days" when our dependence was more directly tied to the land without these intermediary human constructs. It's a Pagan thing. :D
Those were not really good old days... riddled with famine and severe malnutrition. One can't have the agricultural output needed to feed us well in such a individual subsistence agriculture. As paleo-archeology shows... agriculture had an extremely adverse effect on the health and life of farming civilizations that has only been reversed from 20th century onwards. And we need high output less resource intensive farming for the future to avoid further deforestation of the world.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member

Sure, but not the weird directions you're going with it. I thought it was pretty clear from that admittedly brief post that it's not some sort of 1-to-1 correspondence. The appropriate response would have been to ask "in what ways do you see capitalistic economic systems as analogous to slavery?" and perhaps also "in what ways do you see them as different?" (because there's that too).

In what ways is it analogous? The end-goal of capitalism is all about profit. If something isn't profitable, you don't do it. Without regulation - either by law or by social norms - all sorts of ethnically questionable behaviors are justified in the name of profit. Sometimes, the results of that look analogous to slavery. As an example, in the past there were basically no worker protections for folks: no limits to working hours, no overtime pay, dangerous working conditions, child labor, no minimum wages, no benefits, etc. In many respects, it was human slavery in all but name. It was certainly abusive, at any rate. No surprise, folks rebelled, formed things like labor unions, and laws were passed to curb the worst impacts of unregulated capitalism. Things like minimum wage laws, the 40 hour work week, and so on. Unfortunately, this made operating costs more expensive and some companies reacted by moving operations overseas. Why deal with expensive regulations and labor laws domestically when you can outsource to places that still allow exploitation and pittance wages?

The struggles of industrialization and capitalism are really important lessons from history to remember. Many of the protections that were fought for are taken for granted now; we forget that lassies faire capitalism was downright awful for abusing humans as resources. There are other important lessons from history about the importance of regulating capitalism, but I think that human labor laws are most relevant to the OP's topic. When I read the OP, @Vouthon, minimum wage laws came to mind. The profit-driven fixation of capitalism is bad enough, but it's worse when those profits are not shared equitably. Profits get funneled up to the management, not given to the poor (aka, the workers who do most of the actual work). The inequality here is the worst it's been in decades in my country, and it makes these words from the Bible very timely.

Thank you for being more elaborate. I can see some analogy to slavery but as with comparisons between any arbitrary subjects, we easily draw similar traits yet that still doesn't make a direct comparison.

What I see is an indirect comparison between, specifically yesterday's Capitalism and Slavery. Even then, today's Capitalism has grown ethically and morally to provide better working conditions so many of your points I feel have been addressed already.

Still I do not see a direct comparison between the core components of Capitalism and Slavery.

I think the two main components of slavery is freedom or specifically lack of freedom and the property ownership of human beings. These are the mandate of a slave system. Without those components, a country or system cannot implement pure slavery. The system has to be able to systematically remove freedom from specific people and enable property ownership of people to others.

As you say, a simple definition of Capitalism is profit driven. Capitalism does not force people to become property. People enter contracts that forces them to do things, but it was their volition to enter that contract in the first place. People just have to be smart enough to understand the value of the contracts.

I respectfully fail to see any direct comparison between the two. I could make similar indirect comparisons with slavery and communism by simply focusing on similar traits.

No doubt, there's still inequality in Capitalism. There's still much more room for improvement. As you compared yesterday's Capitalism to today's Capitalism, I think you've shown that Capitalism doesn't have some innate ceiling to prevent further improvements. It allows other sociology to exist in parallel like welfare. Again, by and far, Capitalism offers the best life factors for its citizens across the board. It's not perfect, but its still better. I've taken notice of many of the Scandinavian states and other welfare states like Canada. One can't deny their success. Pure Capitalism doesn't seem to be the solution but without it, states just will not be successful enough to support other ideals. I actually do support a Utopian ideal, but the state still has to be able to produce enough in order to support its people. Someday, I probably will change my ideologies when I feel technology has caught up enough to actually make it tangible.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
St. John Chrysostom (Hom. in Lazaro 2,5, cited in CCC 2446)

Not to share one’s wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs

St. Ambose (De Nabuthe, c.12, n.53, cited in Populorum Progressio of Paul VI):

You are not making a gift of your possessions to poor persons. You are handing over to them what is theirs. For what has been given in common for the use of all, you have arrogated to yourself. The world is given to all, and not only to the rich.

Agree or disagree (with these early church fathers of the fourth century AD)?


Early Christians looking to cement a new Christian ethic and society and fight against all the poverty and injustice in the world's empires. In a healthy, free market and democratic/socialistic economy with a strong work force...this is less true....

However, the sins of materialism are rampant and such rhetoric is still a useful wake-up call. I don't agree with these statements literally as I believe they are too much into the communism spectrum. But we all share the limited resources of one planet and we must, to some extent, expect to be socialists in this regard.

Still we want individuals to have the freedom to pursue, through material wealth, what they need to pursue to fulfill their individual spiritual truths.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Who says it's "stealing"? In a democracy, the majority rules as long as it is declared as being constitutional.

If majority says, it is ok to steal, it is still stealing.

Secondly, do you believe in what Jesus taught, such as in the Sermon On the Mount or the Parable of the Sheep & Goats? He's not just talking about charity there as he well knew that Jewish Law mandated governmental laws to help the poor, and he never taught otherwise. On top of that, he praised the widow who gave from her needs, thus going beyond the requirements of the Law

Yes, it is good if people freely help others. But people should not be forced to give their things to others, that is stealing and wrong.

The early church highly condemned the "It's my precious money!" approach (greed), which is one of the reasons it spread so rapidly with their willingness to sacrifice. In Acts, it says that the apostles shared their possessions together for the common good.

And it was voluntary.

Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.
2 Cor. 9:7

It is good, if people voluntary help others. But it is not good, if people are forced to give. And generally, when governments ask, it is not for poor, but for luxurious life of the leaders that doesn’t really care at all about poor. Poor are for them only nice excuse to get the money from other people so that they can hypocritically pretend good person. And actually, most of the time the politics seems to have goal to make as many poor as they can so that their kind could have more voters with their empty promises that show no real love.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
@Revoltingest, I would love to see the theft mentioned in the OP addressed, rather than my statements and the Libertarian interpretation of them. It is theft when the high class robs everyone else of the quality of life arguably required by human dignity. Of course, I don't imagine many Libertarians accept human dignity as an argument, given many of them are nihilists.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
@Revoltingest, I would love to see the theft mentioned in the OP addressed, rather than my statements and the Libertarian interpretation of them. It is theft when the high class robs everyone else of the quality of life arguably required by human dignity. Of course, I don't imagine many Libertarians accept human dignity as an argument, given many of them are nihilists.
Human dignity is more important to libertarians than others.
(How's that for poking the hornet's nest?)
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I'm extremely skeptical since the only people I ever see Libertarians actually defend are the oppressors. That includes on every issue across the board. People have the right to persecute and hate whoever they want apparently- but victims don't have the right to a benevolent government that cares they're persecuted. The government will defend your oppressor, seems to be the Libertarian approach.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm extremely skeptical since the only people I ever see Libertarians actually defend are the oppressors. That includes on every issue across the board. People have the right to persecute and hate whoever they want apparently- but victims don't have the right to a benevolent government that cares they're persecuted. The government will defend your oppressor, seems to be the Libertarian approach.
Responding without alerting me, eh?

I think we have fundamentally different ideas about dignity.
For me, it comes from the individual, & is enhanced by voluntary relationships.
It's not something granted by government, or based upon forced taking from others.
We have a slogan.....
"We're pro everything"
We were pro drug, abortion & gay marriage while
Dems & Pubs were still climbing down from the trees.
And we've even something more in common with the
Dali Lama than thou (regarding armed self defense).
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Responding without alerting me, eh?

Sorry. You're right that I should have done that. No disrespect meant.

I think we have fundamentally different ideas about dignity.

Let's proceed to your next statements and see.

For me, it comes from the individual

I don't think anyone denies we have to treat it as individual at least for purposes of utility. That's another matter than individualism being true or not. However, even if I grant that it unquestionably has to do with individualism- that still doesn't get past my objection that Libertarians don't act in a manner consistent with what they espouse.

Saying everyone has dignity while enabling a corporate class to make an indentured class is saying one thing, but doing another.

"We're pro everything"

Yes, and I'm not sure how that argues for the merits of the Libertarian position.

We were pro drug, abortion & gay marriage while
Dems & Pubs were still climbing down from the trees.

That may be, but you have no historical presence in American political discourse, as Libertarian boasting often tries to paint. Historically speaking, being accurate: Libertarians are trying to rewrite our historical legal approach from the ground up.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't think anyone denies we have to treat it as individual at least for purposes of utility. That's another matter than individualism being true or not. However, even if I grant that it unquestionably has to do with individualism- that still doesn't get past my objection that Libertarians don't act in a manner consistent with what they espouse.

Saying everyone has dignity while enabling a corporate class to make an indentured class is saying one thing, but doing another.
Dang, those are some Marxist colored glasses you see the world thru.
So you blame us for the evils you see in the world, eh.
Well, I've a bone to pick with the world your type (more numerous than mine) has delivered.
Yes, and I'm not sure how that argues for the merits of the Libertarian position.
I'm just relating it.
Not arguing for it.
That may be, but you have no historical presence in American political discourse, as Libertarian boasting often tries to paint. Historically speaking, being accurate: Libertarians are trying to rewrite our historical legal approach from the ground up.
We're trying to re-write something?
That's news to me.

People always be telling me what we believe & what we're up to.
I barely recognize it.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Dang, those are some Marxist colored glasses you see the world thru.

I suppose if I said Socialist, you'd say same difference?

So you blame us for the evils you see in the world, eh.

Not at all. I merely acknowledge what Libertarianism in application would mean. They believe in a government that doesn't protect the weak. There's nothing benevolent about such a government. Believing they'd act benevolently is a mighty leap of faith.

Well, I've a bone to pick with the world your type (more numerous than mine) has delivered.

My type huh?

I'm just relating it.
Not arguing for it.

Very well then. Acknowledged sir.

We're trying to re-write something?

At very least, Libertarians often talk as though they represent a historical position in the application of American law, when they are a fairly recent movement. That's my chief point with that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I suppose if I said Socialist, you'd say same difference?
How dare you accuse me of saying anything as utterly meaningless as "same difference"!
What you meant was "no difference".
But you guessing poorly tonite.
Not at all. I merely acknowledge what Libertarianism in application would mean. They believe in a government that doesn't protect the weak. There's nothing benevolent about such a government. Believing they'd act benevolently is a mighty leap of faith.
We also believe in a government which doesn't attack the weak, as yours does.
My type huh?
You're all about the status quo...politicians who pursue the same old same old.
(Poking the hornet's nest again....soliciting your differentiating yourself.)
At very least, Libertarians often talk as though they represent a historical position in the application of American law, when they are a fairly recent movement. That's my chief point with that.
We have some historical roots, ie, classical liberalism.
We were around before the modern liberal.
But this is merely history...not a claim of cromulence, authority or popularity.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
But you guessing poorly tonite.

I suppose one is likely to guess rather poorly

We also believe in a government which doesn't attack the weak, as yours does.

My government is not your government? As in: the government Libertarians are seeking to reform?

You're all about the status quo...politicians who pursue the same old same old.

Thinking the status quo expedient to maintain for now and being about it are two different things my friend.

We have some historical roots, ie, classical liberalism

I always find this claim a rather interesting one too, because it's like the debate of Catholicism versus Protestantism. Modern liberals as you call us have continuity with the classical liberal movement, and represent the ways the liberal position has evolved and grown through time. Libertarians, if I grant they represent classical liberalism- are trying to return to a 17th century position for the sake of it.

Why do Libertarians prefer to call themselves conservative then? Even if this isn't you: I think it's because liberal is such a dirty word these days. People are almost afraid to call themselves by it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I suppose one is likely to guess rather poorly



My government is not your government? As in: the government Libertarians are seeking to reform?



Thinking the status quo expedient to maintain for now and being about it are two different things my friend.



I always find this claim a rather interesting one too, because it's like the debate of Catholicism versus Protestantism. Modern liberals as you call us have continuity with the classical liberal movement, and represent the ways the liberal position has evolved and grown through time. Libertarians, if I grant they represent classical liberalism- are trying to return to a 17th century position for the sake of it.

Why do Libertarians prefer to call themselves conservative then? Even if this isn't you: I think it's because liberal is such a dirty word these days. People are almost afraid to call themselves by it.
It seems you've bought into the RF scripture which equates classical liberalism with conservatism.
You really don't know the difference between conservatives & libertarians?
Oh, dear.
I'm not trying to convince you to become one of us, or that we're better.
But you ought to understand what it is that you so strongly oppose.
It's just my personal preference....one adjusted for political pragmatism.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm not one to tell groups they are wrong about their own definitions. Especially when they can't seem to agree on which definition they actually fit.
Some differences.....
Libertarians have no religious tradition.
We don't like coercion, eg, the draft.
I've blathered on & on before about how I apply it to various public policy issues.
 
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RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
In a world where serfdom, slavery and forced labor by landowners no longer exist, this argument no longer holds much force.
Slavery Footprint

I'm gonna take this. Heard about it a while back, this should be interesting.
I have 27 slaves. :pensive: :flushed: And I only say this because we act like its outlawed everywhere but when you look hard enough it's still around. We are the serfs.
 
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