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What is a soul, for those who believe in its existence?

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I don't have a soul because there is fundamentally no division between myself and anything else. To quote the Kuan Yin mantra: with Buddha I have origin and affinity.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
According to what? Not the Bible, it uses "soul" in reference to animals and people.

Hebrew Concordance: ne·p̄eš -- 115 Occurrences

If Bible believers say otherwise, they've been misinformed.
I believe in the Bible, but I also believe that it has been expounded upon, and that the meanings of some words have been clarified.

Question.—What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul?
Answer.—It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences.

The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved—that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.

This explanation, though short, is complete; therefore, reflect upon it, and if God wills, you may become acquainted with the details.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I see it as an unified energy substance, that animates the brain. Something kind of like chi. The energy is undetectable but a very real substance.

I am surprised that you dont believe in spirit. So what resurrects and goes to heaven, the atomic structure?

You know, it amazes me that Jews and Christians were sucked into the whole immortal soul thing. It is not taught in scripture at all. It was adopted from Platonic Greek influence, not from the Bible. It is believed by almost every religious system....except that it is not found in the Hebrew scriptures. The first Christians did not believe in an afterlife either.

When Adam sinned his penalty was not heaven or hell......it was life or death. Obey and live....disobey and die. Death for him didn't mean going to a place of punishment, it meant going back to the dust, where he came from. (Genesis 3:19)

Jews were taught that God resurrects the dead. They literally expected to be called back to life from a restful sleep in their graves. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10)

Remember Lazarus? Where was he before Jesus called him out of his tomb? Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) If he had gone to a better place, then why would Jesus bring him back, only to die again later?

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:39-45....
"Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


Here Paul spoke of a resurrection to heaven where God would provide a spirit body for those who were chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. Those who go to heaven will be 'kings and priests' and they will be resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6) Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their duties. Those who go to heaven put away the sins of the flesh and inherit immortality. Kings do not rule one another and there are no sinners in heaven.

Paul indicated that even the apostles would sleep in death until Christ returned to take them "home".

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17...."For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

The majority of humankind, will live on earth, most of them brought back to life on a cleansed earth to enjoy a new life with their families again. (Revelation 21:2-4)There will be nothing to cause pain or suffering and "death will be no more". Imagine!

Jesus promised...."Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

Both the "righteous and the unrighteous" are called from the same place....their graves.
Every resurrection performed by Jesus and his apostles was back to this life...returned to their loved ones.

Think for a moment what would be the case if everyone went to heaven.....imagine if they could see what is happening down here to their loved ones? How could they ever be happy watching us trash the planet or succumbing to horrible diseases or being the victim of crime or a terrible accident? It makes no sense to me. But if my lost family members are just sleeping, unaware of anything that is going on, then to me that is preferable to the alternative. If they sleep, then all is well for them.

If God can create Adam from the dust, he can also re-create people and give them back their memories and reunite them with their families. He wants to do this because he never meant for us to be separated by death.

It was this fact that actually drew me to JW's. When I lost my Dad many years ago, I was so stressed to think that he was missing us as much as we were missing him. He was only 52 when he died suddenly of a heart attack. Our family was devastated.....but when I learned about the resurrection in the Bible, it gave me great comfort to know that my Dad was just 'sleeping' and that Jesus would resurrect him just like he did Lazarus.

I don't think the whole immortal soul thing holds water personally. To me it is just not loving.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I believe in the Bible, but I also believe that it has been expounded upon, and that the meanings of some words have been clarified.

Question.—What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul?
Answer.—It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences.

The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved—that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.

This explanation, though short, is complete; therefore, reflect upon it, and if God wills, you may become acquainted with the details.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209
I'm glad that you have faith in the Bible, and understanding it is a worthy endeavor. That means understand what is written, not change the words of it. (It would be better to use Scriptures to support your view of the Scriptures, not what someone says..... your quote had no Scriptures.)

That being said, in the link were posted 115 passages, beginning with Genesis 1:20. Genesis 1:24, Genesis 1:30, etc. In these verses, the Bible uses the Hebrew "nephesh", meaning "soul", for the animal creation God had made.

In Greek, it's "psyche". Same meaning: a living breathing creature, nothing more.

http://www.2001translation.com/NOTES.htm#_229
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
This article is about addiction and how to deal with it, but it spends considerable effort at discussing how arbitrary the perception of a "real me" is.

People are dying because we misunderstand how those with addiction think

I think it connects quite nicely into the arbitrary nature of soul-beliefs.

Generally, I want to know how believers in the existence of a soul reconcile that belief with the neurological realities of people.

For instance, it is well known that a starving person becomes very irritable and loses self-control, usually losing those traits a short while after being fed. Does that mean that one's soul does not determine the behavior of hungry people? How does one decide what is caused by metaphysical factors and what is caused by environmental, biological and neurological factors?

Hi Luis.

I think it has got to do with our vision of life. If life is just to eat, sleep and work and party, then after a while it becomes insufficient for our inner self which requires meaning and purpose.

I believe we were born to serve others and be selfless and when we go against our own nature we become spiritually ill.

Self mastery is self forgetfulness’. - Abdul- Baha

Purity from the stains of desire means detachment from all things that occasion loss and abate human nobility, which in turn comes about when one favors his own words and deeds, notwithstanding their merit. Serenity is attained when one becomes the well-wisher of all who are on earth. Baha’u’llah

It all comes down to whether our focus is on the self or away from it towards others and the betterment of humanity.


Anything such that gets us away from the insistent self will help us overcome addiction.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
We have no answers because the soul is a mystery of God... We will know more after we die though. :D

Ah, the great answer to everything that has no answer...."its a mystery". :rolleyes:

After the body dies, the soul floats off to the spiritual realm, often referred to as heaven, where it takes on another form that best suits its celestial habitation. The spiritual realm is not visible to us until we get there because it cannot be seen with physical eyes.

Who said the soul floats off anywhere? The soul dies. Your prophet is wrong.

"Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4 The Complete Jewish Bible) There is no immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@LuisDantas I understand the soul to be identified with conscious awareness, in terms of the experience of being aware and qualia.

The book of Wisdom 8:19-20, in the Catholic Old Testament, states: “As a child I was by nature well endowed, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body.” Here the soul is explicitly identified with the I of awareness, conscious experience and first person perspective. Likewise, Wisdom 9:15 establishes that the soul and mind are the exact same entity: "for a perishable body weighs down the soul, and this earthly tent burdens the thoughtful mind.”

In his second letter to the Corinthians, St. Paul uses the nearly identical image of an earthly body weighing down a soul identified with the “we/I” inhabiting the body:


For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden . . . .” (2 Corinthians 5:1, 4.)

Paul identifies the “we” that inhabits the body with the “inner person” or separable soul; Wisdom likewise differentiates between the “I”, identified with the soul, and the body, which the “I/soul” enters and inhabits like a perishable “tent”. This is contrasted with "mortalism” which is emphatically rejected and decried out-of-hand in chapter 2 as symptomatic of the reasoning of the “ungodly”, and described as amounting to the following belief:


For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves,
“Short and sorrowful is our life,
and there is no remedy when a life comes to its end,
and no one has been known to return from Hades.
2 For we were born by mere chance,
and
hereafter we shall be as though we had never been,
for the breath in our nostrils is smoke,
and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts;

3 when it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes,
and the spirit will dissolve like empty air

21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray (Wisdom 2:1-3; 21)​


Simply put, the need to satisfy hunger itself is a physiological response arising from biological mechanisms but the actual experience of feeling hungry - with all the subjective yearning, longing and perhaps even fantasizing about tucking into a burger - is a state of mind, of conscious experience and thus of the soul.

A hypothetical zombie without a mind would go through all the physiological motions of hunger in the body, such as the release of hormones, without feeling hungry. How can you quantify the feeling, the experience, of being hungry? You can point to a part of the brain connected with hunger pangs that lights up on an MRI scan when the patient is famished but the actual experience is entirely subjective and we only know what its like by asking other conscious beings, or feeling it ourselves.

We currently have no scientifically viable models which fully explain how a lump of grey matter can produce a subjective, first person interior perspective, so I'm not sure that neurobiology as it stands mitigates against the idea of an incorporeal element to people. (As yet, we still haven't even identified the neural correlates of consciousness.)

It certainly doesn't or at least need not suggest it, but there's nothing as yet to definitively rule the possibility out either, even if one is strongly convinced that physicalism will eventually lend itself to a comprehensive explanation
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey Deeje & Vouthon,
Very sound reasoning here, quite interesting !
I see a lot Spirit in your writing, but give the Spirit a little more credit.
Soul ? It dances on pinpoints with the invisible angels to the blare of the trumpets from a mysterious place in the sky, it must be the meds !
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
In my Hindu school we differentiate between 'soul body' and 'soul'. When we're talking about the etheric body of light seen by mystics throughout the ages, and what transmigrates from lifetime to lifetime, we say soul body. When we speak of 'soul', we mean the essence of the soul body, that which is identical in essence to Shiva, paratman.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
This article is about addiction and how to deal with it, but it spends considerable effort at discussing how arbitrary the perception of a "real me" is.

People are dying because we misunderstand how those with addiction think

I think it connects quite nicely into the arbitrary nature of soul-beliefs.

Generally, I want to know how believers in the existence of a soul reconcile that belief with the neurological realities of people.

For instance, it is well known that a starving person becomes very irritable and loses self-control, usually losing those traits a short while after being fed. Does that mean that one's soul does not determine the behavior of hungry people? How does one decide what is caused by metaphysical factors and what is caused by environmental, biological and neurological factors?

For one thing, Christians understand the soul has a propensity to sin. Addiction can be forgiven, but rarely tolerated. A lot of addiction is put aside by putting sin aside, by turning one's soul to Christ for help.

Proof of the soul/the soul triumphant is found right where you are looking, where starving, desperate people rise above their circumstance and become heroes and soul winners. Christians, for example, took the anonymous numbers of Jews in the Nazi death camps and died on their behalf as Christ died for theirs, and exhibited extraordinary courage and self-sacrifice where others were stealing one another's bread or turning their fellow inmates in for "crimes" to get ahead.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
This article is about addiction and how to deal with it, but it spends considerable effort at discussing how arbitrary the perception of a "real me" is.

People are dying because we misunderstand how those with addiction think

I think it connects quite nicely into the arbitrary nature of soul-beliefs.

Generally, I want to know how believers in the existence of a soul reconcile that belief with the neurological realities of people.

For instance, it is well known that a starving person becomes very irritable and loses self-control, usually losing those traits a short while after being fed. Does that mean that one's soul does not determine the behavior of hungry people? How does one decide what is caused by metaphysical factors and what is caused by environmental, biological and neurological factors?

The soul is the essence of who you are.

A person came to a friend of mine and said, "I cannot control myself, whenever I am in the presence of this particular person, I am compelled to do whatever I am told to do. Please help me. I need you to do get rid of this person for me."

My friend replied, "What?!? Look man, I can't tell you what you should do anymore than someone else and I'm not going to go beat someone up because you want me to. You have to figure that out. If I were you, I'd go to the creek out back and balance on a slippery stone in the middle of it until I found myself."

The person did so and eventually came back and thanked my friend, telling him that he no longer had the problem.

The soul is like this: you either know thyself or you don't. Either you are confused by the maya of creation or not.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
This article is about addiction and how to deal with it, but it spends considerable effort at discussing how arbitrary the perception of a "real me" is.

People are dying because we misunderstand how those with addiction think

I think it connects quite nicely into the arbitrary nature of soul-beliefs.

Generally, I want to know how believers in the existence of a soul reconcile that belief with the neurological realities of people.

For instance, it is well known that a starving person becomes very irritable and loses self-control, usually losing those traits a short while after being fed. Does that mean that one's soul does not determine the behavior of hungry people? How does one decide what is caused by metaphysical factors and what is caused by environmental, biological and neurological factors?

The mind is what the brain does and the soul is a self-perception of the mind. An addicted brain will absolutely place restraints on the mind's activity and the soul, helpless against the addiction, follows suit.

But, part of the nature of self-knowledge is to recognize, understand and negotiate the needs of the body and of one's psyche. Even if one cannot stop one's self from fulfilling the requirements of an addiction driven behavior NOW in the moment, one can manipulate one's environment in a way that will promote better freedom of choice in the future.

This involves, but is not limited to, the following:

  • Changing who you spend time with
  • Learning what triggers your need to use
  • Creating resources (people, activities) that can help you get recentered
My piano teacher once taught me that if I am playing a passage and I find that I repeatedly hit the wrong note I will have to play it ten times correctly before I break my bad habit. For the addict this is true in a more complex way. It requires trying to isolate and identify critical self-thinking habits and learned attitudes and change them. Nothing short of a spiritual transcendence of the wisdom and "reality" of one's old way of thinking is required.

The soul is the center of narrative gravity of the mind (to borrow from Daniel Dennett). It is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves that was, at first, told to us before we even knew how to speak. To unearth our primal and private myth requires great patience and much support and wisdom. The soul that finds its way out of hell and into the light is a soul not easy to extinguish. For those of us who have struggled less deeply and keenly, our souls are still our personal narratives. We exist among a sea of the stories of others and of groups of others. We are a drop in a river moving all together more or less in coordination. Metaphor best captures the essence of our souls. Like poetry our souls are deep, vast, unseen, fragile.
 

Chris Lovel

searcher
OK, here's an hypothesis that may be new to some of you. In 1985 I had a Near Death Experience, it frightened the life out of me. However, as with most experiencers it changed my life and my world view. I decided to undertake a quest to discover just exactly what happened to me and how. I did succeed, at least to my own satisfaction. During my research I came to an interesting conclusion. All living things are surrounded by an energy field , this is not unknown. I have a system that reveals this field in fine detail and discovered it contains some amazing data. One important piece is that this field can exist in cohesive form free of and independent of the body. If this field contains our consciousness it would account for not only the NDE but OOBE, ghosts etc. Conclusion, the soul is conscious energy and being energy cannot be destroyed which is why it is eternal.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hello and welcome to RF.

OK, here's an hypothesis that may be new to some of you. In 1985 I had a Near Death Experience, it frightened the life out of me. However, as with most experiencers it changed my life and my world view. I decided to undertake a quest to discover just exactly what happened to me and how. I did succeed, at least to my own satisfaction. During my research I came to an interesting conclusion. All living things are surrounded by an energy field , this is not unknown. I have a system that reveals this field in fine detail and discovered it contains some amazing data. One important piece is that this field can exist in cohesive form free of and independent of the body. If this field contains our consciousness it would account for not only the NDE but OOBE, ghosts etc. Conclusion, the soul is conscious energy and being energy cannot be destroyed which is why it is eternal.

What if NDE's are simply delusions created by an oxygen deprived brain? Would the ones experiencing them really know? Delusions are "reality" to those experiencing them. And remember, that "near" death experiences are not "after" death experiences. Brain death has not occurred.
I am not sure of your belief system, but there is a difference between "soul" and "spirit" in the scriptures...for most people, they have come to mean the same thing. They are not.

In the Bible, the "soul" is the complete living organism (either animal or human)....it has breath in its lungs and blood in its veins. The difference between soul and spirit is the same difference as that between an appliance and the electricity that powers it.

The "spirit" in the original languages of the Bible, literally means "breath". Adam was formed from the elements of the earth, but he did not "become" a "soul" until God started him breathing. Without the spirit to activate all the cells in the body, (especially the brain,) consciousness cannot exist. If a person is in a coma e.g. where does consciousness go? People have lost years of their conscious life because of brain impairment, so consciousness is inextricably tied to the brain. If consciousness is separate from the brain, then it should then have a life of its own when a brain is damaged. That is clearly not the case.

The idea that humans don't really die is as old as the story of Adam and Eve. It was the devil who told the woman "you surely will not die" if she ate the fruit.....it was God who said they would....so who do we trust to tell the truth?

"Jesus said to them.......You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44)

So why do so many believe him?

It has a lot to do with our 'programming'. Unlike animals, we are not designed to die.....we have an innate desire to keep living, because death was never supposed to happen. Those of us along in years (who still have all our marbles) will know that we don't age in our mind, but only in our body. Old age is an affront.....a terrible tragedy that everything in us fights to come to terms with. We look in the mirror and the young person we are inside, struggles to identify the person in the mirror. Older folk will understand exactly what I mean. :(

When humans died, it was a foreign feeling and not accommodated in the human psyche at all. The only way to process the idea was to imagine some conscious part of ourselves living apart from the body.....somewhere.....handing ourselves over to the devils lie.

Most Bible believers have lost the idea of the resurrection by exchanging it for something that makes death more acceptable.....we don't really die, but go on living. The good ones go to heaven but the bad guys go to a place of eternal torment.

When you accept the idea of an immortal soul, you then have to invent places for these souls to go. Some belief systems have gone overboard in this concept. Everything from heavenly bliss to reincarnation, to roasting in a fire forever. Appeasing the dead is an important part of many cultures.

If what the Bible teaches is true, then all who have died are just sleeping peacefully in their graves. Both the "righteous and the unrighteousness" will be called from their graves to resume life with all their family members. Jesus promised to do that, as easily as he "woke" Lazarus from his "sleep" (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14)

That being the case, how do we explain the fact that the "dead" can apparently contact the living through mediums and other means? Who or what are being contacted? Or OOBE's? The Bible answers that too.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
This article is about addiction and how to deal with it, but it spends considerable effort at discussing how arbitrary the perception of a "real me" is.

People are dying because we misunderstand how those with addiction think

I think it connects quite nicely into the arbitrary nature of soul-beliefs.

Generally, I want to know how believers in the existence of a soul reconcile that belief with the neurological realities of people.

For instance, it is well known that a starving person becomes very irritable and loses self-control, usually losing those traits a short while after being fed. Does that mean that one's soul does not determine the behavior of hungry people? How does one decide what is caused by metaphysical factors and what is caused by environmental, biological and neurological factors?

What do you think a soul is? Do you not think it exists?

Addiction is self-defeating. It's not like people seek addiction or think they will be the ones to become addicted. It's difficult for me today to rationalize how those with addiction think before they are addicted. When I was younger, I would be more open and not "know" the dangers of addiction. That isn't to say I wasn't aware of the negative things that could happen. Thus, it was avoid those drugs that physically addict you with horrible withdrawal symptoms. Back in the day, the government and those in authority would try to scare us from drugs. That didn't work for me as it made me more open to trying it for myself. However, I did heed their warnings as these substances could have negative consequences such as addiction, hallucinations and withdrawal. With opioids, I understand that it's not even a high or pleasure that one derives from it. It's just something to calm those cells that cry out for more of the drug. I don't think it induces a modicum of pain or pleasure, but it is something that became a need. Maybe it's taken to alleviate pain, but I'm not sure if it's a placebo or it really does work to some degree. Thus, I don't think one uses opioids to experience something new or different. I suppose this is what you mean by neurological realities.

So what does a soul have to do with dealing with these neurological realities? You mention hungry people and hungry people will riot and commit violence if their needs are not met. From what I have been told, the opioid addicts have a need just like these hungry people have a need for food. Thus, you are right in that they are more prone to violence.

A soul is one's personality and that which distinguishes one person from another. This also encompasses their thoughts and spirit, too, but each is different. The mind contains these thoughts that are generated as well as those that come into it and are developed. The physical brain offers the storage and pathways, but is not the source of these thoughts. The thoughts can come from within as well as without. The spirit is the energy and inner force that drives the soul. It is what causes the soul to move and put things into action.

As for treatment, it would be easy enough to put the addict on a treatment program, but one would have to show results of putting them on other drugs. They would have to meet target dates and make progress in order to continue. Other ways would be to treat their inner selves such as the soul, spirit and mind. These could be better customized to fit their personalities or souls. Like treating addicts with substitute drugs, one would have to show progress with psychological treatment or even a combination of treatment.

I'm not sure how one actually changes the addicts thought processes though. There lies the rub. The addict would have to do it for themselves, so that they start thinking about drug avoidance and avoiding those situations that could cause their relapse. This is the type of behavior that one wants their souls to experience and their spirit and mind to drive this behavior.

From my experience, once these addicts are in the street, then it's about them confronting the police or religious social workers. I don't think their regular social workers are out at night.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/01/25/murder-opioid-epidemic-violence-st-louis/1065533001/
 

Chris Lovel

searcher
Hello and welcome to RF.



What if NDE's are simply delusions created by an oxygen deprived brain? Would the ones experiencing them really know? Delusions are "reality" to those experiencing them. And remember, that "near" death experiences are not "after" death experiences. Brain death has not occurred.
I am not sure of your belief system, but there is a difference between "soul" and "spirit" in the scriptures...for most people, they have come to mean the same thing. They are not.

In the Bible, the "soul" is the complete living organism (either animal or human)....it has breath in its lungs and blood in its veins. The difference between soul and spirit is the same difference as that between an appliance and the electricity that powers it.

The "spirit" in the original languages of the Bible, literally means "breath". Adam was formed from the elements of the earth, but he did not "become" a "soul" until God started him breathing. Without the spirit to activate all the cells in the body, (especially the brain,) consciousness cannot exist. If a person is in a coma e.g. where does consciousness go? People have lost years of their conscious life because of brain impairment, so consciousness is inextricably tied to the brain. If consciousness is separate from the brain, then it should then have a life of its own when a brain is damaged. That is clearly not the case.

The idea that humans don't really die is as old as the story of Adam and Eve. It was the devil who told the woman "you surely will not die" if she ate the fruit.....it was God who said they would....so who do we trust to tell the truth?

"Jesus said to them.......You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44)

So why do so many believe him?
What do you think a soul is? Do you not think it exists?

Addiction is self-defeating. It's not like people seek addiction or think they will be the ones to become addicted. It's difficult for me today to rationalize how those with addiction think before they are addicted. When I was younger, I would be more open and not "know" the dangers of addiction. That isn't to say I wasn't aware of the negative things that could happen. Thus, it was avoid those drugs that physically addict you with horrible withdrawal symptoms. Back in the day, the government and those in authority would try to scare us from drugs. That didn't work for me as it made me more open to trying it for myself. However, I did heed their warnings as these substances could have negative consequences such as addiction, hallucinations and withdrawal. With opioids, I understand that it's not even a high or pleasure that one derives from it. It's just something to calm those cells that cry out for more of the drug. I don't think it induces a modicum of pain or pleasure, but it is something that became a need. Maybe it's taken to alleviate pain, but I'm not sure if it's a placebo or it really does work to some degree. Thus, I don't think one uses opioids to experience something new or different. I suppose this is what you mean by neurological realities.

So what does a soul have to do with dealing with these neurological realities? You mention hungry people and hungry people will riot and commit violence if their needs are not met. From what I have been told, the opioid addicts have a need just like these hungry people have a need for food. Thus, you are right in that they are more prone to violence.

A soul is one's personality and that which distinguishes one person from another. This also encompasses their thoughts and spirit, too, but each is different. The mind contains these thoughts that are generated as well as those that come into it and are developed. The physical brain offers the storage and pathways, but is not the source of these thoughts. The thoughts can come from within as well as without. The spirit is the energy and inner force that drives the soul. It is what causes the soul to move and put things into action.

As for treatment, it would be easy enough to put the addict on a treatment program, but one would have to show results of putting them on other drugs. They would have to meet target dates and make progress in order to continue. Other ways would be to treat their inner selves such as the soul, spirit and mind. These could be better customized to fit their personalities or souls. Like treating addicts with substitute drugs, one would have to show progress with psychological treatment or even a combination of treatment.

I'm not sure how one actually changes the addicts thought processes though. There lies the rub. The addict would have to do it for themselves, so that they start thinking about drug avoidance and avoiding those situations that could cause their relapse. This is the type of behavior that one wants their souls to experience and their spirit and mind to drive this behavior.

From my experience, once these addicts are in the street, then it's about them confronting the police or religious social workers. I don't think their regular social workers are out at night.

Opioids are adding a dangerous wrinkle to violent cities


It has a lot to do with our 'programming'. Unlike animals, we are not designed to die.....we have an innate desire to keep living, because death was never supposed to happen. Those of us along in years (who still have all our marbles) will know that we don't age in our mind, but only in our body. Old age is an affront.....a terrible tragedy that everything in us fights to come to terms with. We look in the mirror and the young person we are inside, struggles to identify the person in the mirror. Older folk will understand exactly what I mean. :(

When humans died, it was a foreign feeling and not accommodated in the human psyche at all. The only way to process the idea was to imagine some conscious part of ourselves living apart from the body.....somewhere.....handing ourselves over to the devils lie.

Most Bible believers have lost the idea of the resurrection by exchanging it for something that makes death more acceptable.....we don't really die, but go on living. The good ones go to heaven but the bad guys go to a place of eternal torment.

When you accept the idea of an immortal soul, you then have to invent places for these souls to go. Some belief systems have gone overboard in this concept. Everything from heavenly bliss to reincarnation, to roasting in a fire forever. Appeasing the dead is an important part of many cultures.

If what the Bible teaches is true, then all who have died are just sleeping peacefully in their graves. Both the "righteous and the unrighteousness" will be called from their graves to resume life with all their family members. Jesus promised to do that, as easily as he "woke" Lazarus from his "sleep" (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14)

That being the case, how do we explain the fact that the "dead" can apparently contact the living through mediums and other means? Who or what are being contacted? Or OOBE's? The Bible answers that too.
I refuse to discuss the subject of the NDE with anyone who clearly know nothing about them. this is not surprising as you are a Christian and it does not fit your limited world view so you ignore all the new scientific evidence. If you do not look you most assuredly will not find. Your inaccurate explanation that the NDE is the illusions of an oxygen starved brain has been used by Christians for year and was disproved at least 30 years ago. May I suggest you open your mind and go to either www.IANDS.org or NDERF.org preferable both, learn about it then we can discuss it sensibly. As for your Bible quotes you have contacted the wrong person. The Bible is not a reliable source of information, there are over 400 conflicting passages in it, how do you know which one is true, if any. Here's another problem, Of the many occurances and speeches reported in the Bible there was nobody present at the time to record or report them. That means they are all here-say, not admitted in evidence and not a reliable form of communication. So you do not know what was said or what happened at the time. So why do you believe all these myths? Is it because you have been told to as a result of conditioning or because you surrounds yourself with those who also believe thereby perpetuating the myths. A Priest once said, "give me a child before the age of 5 and I will give you a Catholic for life. That was an admission of brain washing. Most religions do the same. They do not allow for alternative beliefs so you can never expand your horizons, very sad...
 

Scott C.

Just one guy
How does one decide what is caused by metaphysical factors and what is caused by environmental, biological and neurological factors?

It's hard to tell. I understand that head trauma can cause personality change. If the personality resides in the "spirit" of the person, why does head trauma change the personality? There's a link between the body and spirit which I don't think we have any way to understand. When we die, I believe the spirit leaves the body and carries on as very much the same individual. The spirit can live without a physical body, but the body dies when the spirit departs or the spirit departs when the body dies. I also believe that all living creatures have a spirit which gives them life.

As one who believes this way, I find your question fascinating and I think about it from time to time. But, I don't see it as a "gotcha" question that puts my belief in doubt.

I would say that because of biological and neorological factors, it's more difficult for some people than others to behave in certain ways. This makes it impossible for humans to accurately pass judgment. For example, anger and losing one's temper is not a virtue. But it may very well be more difficult for some people to remain calm, due to biological factors which are not part of the free will side of the soul. But I believe that God knows exactly what's going on with every neuron and cell in the body, he knows how they interact with the soul, and he knows how this impacts one's agency to choose. I believe his judgment is informed by a seemingly infinite number of biological and environmental factors and since he is all knowing, he always gets it right.

Definition: Physical body + spirit = soul.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I refuse to discuss the subject of the NDE with anyone who clearly know nothing about them. this is not surprising as you are a Christian and it does not fit your limited world view so you ignore all the new scientific evidence.

Now that is a strange statement considering that people of all faiths seem to have had "NDE's" that accord with their own belief systems. Some unbelievers even became believers after an NDE....so I am rather confused by your response.
How does it conflict with a Christian worldview exactly?

If you do not look you most assuredly will not find. Your inaccurate explanation that the NDE is the illusions of an oxygen starved brain has been used by Christians for year and was disproved at least 30 years ago. May I suggest you open your mind and go to either www.IANDS.org or NDERF.org preferable both, learn about it then we can discuss it sensibly.

Is there a way to discuss NDE's with people who are firmly convinced of the meaning of their experience?
I find a lot of people treat them as if they were a virtual child that they had given birth to. They are extremely protective and defensive of the whole thing, as you seem to be.
Ask anyone who has had delusions if they thought that what they were experiencing wasn't real? It is not trying to insult a person but to try and acquaint them with reality. The dying brain is flooded with chemicals when it is oxygen deprived. Is that not based on science?

These NDE's seem to have profound effects that can change a person's whole life and attitude. But you might be surprised to discover that people can have an equally life altering experience just by having a mental encounter with God. Having one's mind opened to God's truth is also life altering.

As for your Bible quotes you have contacted the wrong person. The Bible is not a reliable source of information, there are over 400 conflicting passages in it, how do you know which one is true, if any.

I have heard all the stuff about conflicting Bible passages...its all rubbish. Have you gone through them one by one with any person who has a fair knowledge of the scriptures at all? It's just nit picking in an attempt to discredit the Bible. Easy for those who don't know what it teaches. What earth shattering conflicts can you pick out? Or did someone else do that for you?
Sometimes its a matter of "who" we believe rather than "what".

Here's another problem, Of the many occurances and speeches reported in the Bible there was nobody present at the time to record or report them. That means they are all here-say, not admitted in evidence and not a reliable form of communication. So you do not know what was said or what happened at the time. So why do you believe all these myths? Is it because you have been told to as a result of conditioning or because you surrounds yourself with those who also believe thereby perpetuating the myths.

Who said they are myths and hear-say? How we know that the scriptures are not the product of the writers themselves is their internal harmony. What other book in history has survived so many attempts to destroy it? How many other books can take 1500 years to write, with many different penmen from all walks of life, and still only tell one story?

If you had any knowledge of the Bible you would understand that it claims to be the "word of God", not dictated to men, but they wrote under his inspiration in their own words. They candidly wrote about their own failings too, which a work of fiction would hardly do.

Why are there 4 gospel accounts, which all include or exclude things that the others leave out? As one story told by 4 different men, it is remarkable in its detail.

In writing Genesis, how did Moses know that the earth was originally "formless and waste"? How did he know that life began in the oceans and that man was created last?
How did Job know that the earth "hangs on nothing" in space or how the cycle of precipitation works?
How did Isaiah know that the earth was a sphere? These are all in the scriptures written by men who knew little of science.

The creative days could not have been mere 24 hour periods and the earth itself could be very ancient....but Genesis allows for all that. YEC's are a menace because they cannot correlate their beliefs with what science knows. It is possible to believe both without throwing out one myth and replacing it with another. You just have to know where the line is, and understand that humans are uniquely spiritual and always have been, even if they went off the rails a bit. It is only relatively recently that humans have considered themselves too intelligent to believe in God.

A Priest once said, "give me a child before the age of 5 and I will give you a Catholic for life. That was an admission of brain washing. Most religions do the same. They do not allow for alternative beliefs so you can never expand your horizons, very sad...

Yes, fear has been used by the church throughout history, but that is not what Jesus taught. Teaching children doesn't mean brainwashing them. Almost all parents are guilty of indoctrinating their own beliefs into their children...some by word of mouth and others by example.

It is my personal view that no one has anything to fear from the truth. God doesn't use scare tactics...and we shouldn't either. He appeals to hearts with love and gives us hope of something better to come. He even gives us reasons for why life is so hard for many of us.

What hope do you have that is better than what God offers? Do you even know what God offers? :shrug:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm glad that you have faith in the Bible, and understanding it is a worthy endeavor. That means understand what is written, not change the words of it. (It would be better to use Scriptures to support your view of the Scriptures, not what someone says..... your quote had no Scriptures.)
I do not see where I changed any words in the Bible. I simply have a different understanding of what those words mean; or should I say an additional understanding, as the word soul can have more than one meaning, and it will mean different things in different contexts.
That being said, in the link were posted 115 passages, beginning with Genesis 1:20. Genesis 1:24, Genesis 1:30, etc. In these verses, the Bible uses the Hebrew "nephesh", meaning "soul", for the animal creation God had made.

In Greek, it's "psyche". Same meaning: a living breathing creature, nothing more.

http://www.2001translation.com/NOTES.htm#_229
I can agree that the soul can be equated with the animal creation, since humans are part of that creation. However, when I use the word soul, I am referring to the rational soul, which is the soul that only humans have. Other animals have a spirit but they do not have a rational soul. Just because that is not in the Bible does not mean it is not true. I believe that the Bible has been expounded upon since it was written.

If the soul is the psyche it is not only the body, since the psyche can be more than just a physical body.

To say that the soul is the breath of life, as Christians believe, is actually correct, because it is the soul that animates the physical body and gives it life. There is no reason to believe that the soul cannot exist without the body though. Just because we cannot SEE it with our physical eyes does not mean it does not exist. In this mortal life while we have a body, the soul is associated with the body, and then after the physical body dies the soul continues on to a spiritual world and takes on a spiritual form made up of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual world. We cannot possibly understand what that will be like since all we can see in this realm is the physical, since all we have are physical eyes…

However, as I recall, Jesus referred to spiritual eyes and ears, so if we have those we can see and hear more than just the physical, so we can realize that there is a heaven that is beyond our present understanding and sight. :D
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ah, the great answer to everything that has no answer...."its a mystery".
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There is nothing wrong with that. God is also a mystery, but God still exists. So it is the same with the soul and the spiritual world.

I would rather accept the mystery of not knowing than believe in something that is more familiar yet not true. :D
Who said the soul floats off anywhere? The soul dies. Your prophet is wrong.
Do you think you know more than a Manifestation of God who received a direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit?

You will find out that I am not wrong. I can assure you of that. ;)
"Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4The Complete Jewish Bible) There is no immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures.
The Bible does not lie but it requires accurate interpretation to be fully understood. The Bible was never fully understood, which is why Daniel 12:4 says “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Many shall run to and fro because they do not understand what the Bible really means; then knowledge will be increased at the time of the end.

That is why Daniel 12:9 says “And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” Then Daniel 12:12 says “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

The "Book" was intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means that it can be fully understood. By reading the Baha’i scriptures that talk a lot about the soul and its eternal destination, we can understand what the Bible means.For example, “the soul that sins, it shall die” means that the soul that sins will not gain eternal life because sin debars us from God. What is eternal life? That was explained by Abdu’l-Baha, an appointed interpreter of the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the Centre of His covenant:

67: ETERNAL LIFE AND ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD

You question about eternal life and the entrance into the Kingdom. The outer expression used for the Kingdom is heaven; but this is a comparison and similitude, not a reality or fact, for the Kingdom is not a material place; it is sanctified from time and place. It is a spiritual world, a divine world, and the center of the Sovereignty of God; it is freed from body and that which is corporeal, and it is purified and sanctified from the imaginations of the human world. To be limited to place is a property of bodies and not of spirits. Place and time surround the body, not the mind and spirit. Observe that the body of man is confined to a small place; it covers only two spans of earth. But the spirit and mind of man travel to all countries and regions—even through the limitless space of the heavens—surround all that exists, and make discoveries in the exalted spheres and infinite distances. This is because the spirit has no place; it is placeless; and for the spirit the earth and the heaven are as one since it makes discoveries in both. But the body is limited to a place and does not know that which is beyond it.

For life is of two kinds: that of the body and that of the spirit. The life of the body is material life, but the life of the spirit expresses the existence of the Kingdom, which consists in receiving the Spirit of God and becoming vivified by the breath of the Holy Spirit. Although the material life has existence, it is pure nonexistence and absolute death for the holy saints. So man exists, and this stone also exists, but what a difference between the existence of man and that of the stone! Though the stone exists, in relation to the existence of man it is nonexistent.

The meaning of eternal life is the gift of the Holy Spirit, as the flower receives the gift of the season, the air, and the breezes of spring. Consider: this flower had life in the beginning like the life of the mineral; but by the coming of the season of spring, of the bounty of the clouds of the springtime, and of the heat of the glowing sun, it attained to another life of the utmost freshness, delicacy and fragrance. The first life of the flower, in comparison to the second life, is death.

The meaning is that the life of the Kingdom is the life of the spirit, the eternal life, and that it is purified from place, like the spirit of man which has no place. For if you examine the human body, you will not find a special spot or locality for the spirit, for it has never had a place; it is immaterial. It has a connection with the body like that of the sun with this mirror. The sun is not within the mirror, but it has a connection with the mirror.

In the same way the world of the Kingdom is sanctified from everything that can be perceived by the eye or by the other senses—hearing, smell, taste or touch. The mind which is in man, the existence of which is recognized—where is it in him? If you examine the body with the eye, the ear or the other senses, you will not find it; nevertheless, it exists. Therefore, the mind has no place, but it is connected with the brain. The Kingdom is also like this. In the same way love has no place, but it is connected with the heart; so the Kingdom has no place, but is connected with man.

Entrance into the Kingdom is through the love of God, through detachment, through holiness and chastity, through truthfulness, purity, steadfastness, faithfulness and the sacrifice of life.

These explanations show that man is immortal and lives eternally. For those who believe in God, who have love of God, and faith, life is excellent—that is, it is eternal; but to those souls who are veiled from God, although they have life, it is dark, and in comparison with the life of believers it is nonexistence.

For example, the eye and the nail are living; but the life of the nail in relation to the life of the eye is nonexistent. This stone and this man both exist; but the stone in relation to the existence of man is nonexistent; it has no being; for when man dies, and his body is destroyed and annihilated, it becomes like stone and earth. Therefore, it is clear that although the mineral exists, in relation to man it is nonexistent.

In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 241-243

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Eternal life is abundant life. It begins in this mortal existence and it continues throughout all eternity, in the spiritual world, or heaven. It is interesting that this Christian website I found that talks about abundant life correlates with the chapter in Some Answered Questions above:

Question: "What did Jesus mean when He promised an abundant life?"

Answer:
In John 10:10, Jesus said, “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” Unlike a thief, the Lord Jesus does not come for selfish reasons. He comes to give, not to get. He comes that people may have life in Him that is meaningful, purposeful, joyful, and eternal. We receive this abundant life the moment we accept Him as our Savior.

This word “abundant” in the Greek is perisson, meaning “exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, a quantity so abundant as to be considerably more than what one would expect or anticipate.” In short, Jesus promises us a life far better than we could ever imagine, a concept reminiscent of 1 Corinthians 2:9: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.” The apostle Paul tells us that God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, and He does it by His power, a power that is at work within us if we belong to Him (Ephesians 3:20)......

Abundant life is eternal life, a life that begins the moment we come to Christ and receive Him as Savior, and goes on throughout all eternity. The biblical definition of life — specifically eternal life — is provided by Jesus Himself: “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3). This definition makes no mention of length of days, health, prosperity, family, or occupation. As a matter of fact, the only thing it does mention is knowledge of God, which is the key to a truly abundant life.

What is the abundant life? First, abundance is spiritual abundance, not material. In fact, God is not overly concerned with the physical circumstances of our lives. He assures us that we need not worry about what we will eat or wear (Matthew 6:25-32; Philippians 4:19). Physical blessings may or may not be part of a God-centered life; neither our wealth nor our poverty is a sure indication of our standing with God. Solomon had all the material blessings available to a man yet found it all to be meaningless (Ecclesiastes 5:10-15). Paul, on the other hand, was content in whatever physical circumstances he found himself (Philippians 4:11-12).

Second, eternal life, the life a Christian is truly concerned with, is not determined by duration but by a relationship with God. This is why, once we are converted and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, we are said to have eternal life already (1 John 5:11-13), though not, of course, in its fullness. Length of life on earth is not synonymous with abundant life.

To continue: What did Jesus mean when He promised an abundant life?
 
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