Predestinated ?

Faithofchristian said:

But when did Predestination take place ?
Note that God chosen us before the foundation of the world.
This means, that before the foundation of this world ever came into being, God chosen us. That means we were with God before the foundation of this world ever came into being.

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Clearly, it was before the foundation of the world that God predetermined that those who placed their faith in Christ He would conform to the image of Christ.

"Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans:8:29-30 , the other chapter is Ephesians:1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus"

"D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the 'whosoever wills' the non-elect 'whosoever wont's'. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect".

"Whosoever means, whosoever." Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect."

--H.A. Ironside
Ironside on Calvinism

Carlita said:

He predestined christians. Everyone else he did not.

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Oh, we have different Gods. Our God keep things fluid. You get according to your deeds, Karma - and an unending cycle of lives, unless one chooses to opt out and merge with the God, Brahman.

Etritonakin said:

Isaiah 46:
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

What will become of all is known beforehand.
Our choice is involved, but God is able to bring us to the correct choice.
God has decided what will be, and will cause it to happen.

Even those who have their "part in the lake of fire" will be "saved, yet so as by fire."

A quick skim of scripture might make it seem that some were made to be saved and some to be doomed, but that it not what it actually says.

Only the firstfruits are called during this time -and will be raised to the first resurrection. Those raised to the judgment after the thousand years are not without hope.
They will be judged according to their works -not specific beliefs -and the works of some have been good. Those whose works have not been good will be saved "yet so as by fire".

It is possible that both body and spirit may be destroyed in the lake of fire -God is able -but that is not to say that is what will happen.

The word of God was written "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" -as the "mystery of God" -not to be completely understood until the days of "the voice of the seventh angel" of Revelation.

It is not impossible that all which has gone wrong (God gave the creation over to futility in hope) can be made right.
God is as a refiner's fire -and his mercy never fails. Choice is involved, but God's choice supersedes all others.
He brought us into this, and he is responsible for seeing us through it.

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Look take what you given in the book of Isaiah 46:10--"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I do all my pleasure"

Notice God said ( Declaring the end from the beginning) Then God said from ancient times)
So the question is, when was the beginning that God Declared it.
Notice God already establish that it was Declared from ancient times.

So when was the beginning ?
you will say, the beginning was with Adam and Eve, But God already establish that, by saying (and from ancient times.

Notice the word ( and ) this separating the two from each other, ( beginning) ( and)
From ancient times.

Declaring the end from the beginning,
( and) from ancient times
So you have the word ( and ) showing a separation between the two.

So when was the beginning ?

InChrist said:

Clearly, it was before the foundation of the world that God predetermined that those who placed their faith in Christ He would conform to the image of Christ.

"Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans:8:29-30 , the other chapter is Ephesians:1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus"

"D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the 'whosoever wills' the non-elect 'whosoever wont's'. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect".

"Whosoever means, whosoever." Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect."

--H.A. Ironside
Ironside on Calvinism

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So God predestinated us before the foundation of this world ever came into existence. So that means, we were with God before the foundation of this world ever came into existence.

When you go to Ephesians 1 Notice Verse 4 which is the important Verse, Which said----According as he ( God) has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world)

So God has chosen us in him
Notice the word ( before ) the foundation of the world.
So God chosen us in him, before the foundation of the world,ever came into existence.
That means, That we were with God before the foundation of this world ever came into existence.

Then in Verse 5--"Having predestinated us,

Therefore God Predestinated us before the foundation of this world ever came into existence. Unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.

Therefore we were with God, before the foundation of this world ever came into existence.
Then when God made the foundation of this world, Then God predestinated us to come into this world. To be his adopted children thru Jesus Christ.

InChrist said:

Clearly, it was before the foundation of the world that God predetermined that those who placed their faith in Christ He would conform to the image of Christ.

"Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans:8:29-30 , the other chapter is Ephesians:1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus"

"D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the 'whosoever wills' the non-elect 'whosoever wont's'. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect".

"Whosoever means, whosoever." Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect."

--H.A. Ironside
Ironside on Calvinism

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Let's see, if I'm getting this right, your saying that God's elect are those who accept it
Accept what ?
What are they to accept exactly ?

Have you any idea who God's elect are ?
Let's take the rapture, can you explain exactly how God's elect are to be Raptured out and be delivered up before the antichrist all at the same time during the tribulation
How exactly does this work ?

Whosever means -- Anyone and Everyone.

Faithofchristian said:

Look take what you given in the book of Isaiah 46:10--"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I do all my pleasure"

Notice God said ( Declaring the end from the beginning) Then God said from ancient times)
So the question is, when was the beginning that God Declared it.
Notice God already establish that it was Declared from ancient times.

So when was the beginning ?
you will say, the beginning was with Adam and Eve, But God already establish that, by saying (and from ancient times.

Notice the word ( and ) this separating the two from each other, ( beginning) ( and)
From ancient times.

Declaring the end from the beginning,
( and) from ancient times
So you have the word ( and ) showing a separation between the two.

So when was the beginning ?

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As something cannot come from absolute nothing, then something "always" existed.
Therefore, "the" beginning refers to the initiation of whatever is being referenced.
The "very" beginning would, I suppose, refer to a time before what was created was even a consideration.

In a sense we are predestined in another sense we are not. We have free will and can choose our own future. On the other hand God knows what we will choose, because He is outside of time, and sees the past and the future as the same.

There are those who are chosen, but this is not because we were predestined to be chosen. God chooses us because God sees our actions and attitude and decides to choose us.

JoshuaTree said:

Will there be free will in heaven or will we all be predestined to do God's will?

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Actually, the meek shall inherit the Earth -not heaven.
Afterward, the entire creation (universe) -which was "formed" "to be inhabited" -will be "liberated from the bondage to decay" by the children of God -whose "vile" bodies will be changed to be like the "glorious body" which allowed the Word to create all things in the first place, and "subdue all things into himself".

In other words, we will be given power over cosmic forces -and will create throughout the universe.

Free will is basically creativity. Disobedience is creativity which is contrary to the necessary government which allows for creativity without conflict.

The government of God -and obedience to it -will allow for MORE freedom of expression and free up time otherwise spent in conflict.
Personal responsibility and will to obey that government will remove the need for excessive micromanagement.

What exactly is the will of God?

Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

18“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;..................

Ever wonder what you might do for eternity?
Just look up on a clear night!

Faithofchristian said:

God having Predestinated us.
Before the foundation of this world ever came to be.
What does "Predestination" mean to you ?

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Those “predestined” would be two halves of a whole. You have the “elect” written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), who would not worship the “beast”, and you have the other half, “those who dwell on the earth”, who will be “deceived” (Revelation 13:14). The “deceived” would be the “many” of Matthew 7:13, who take the “broad” ”way” to “destruction”. Those would be those like Adam, who thought if they disobeyed God’s Commandments, that they “surely shall not die”, but shall be turned in a “twinkle of an eye” from perishable to imperishable.

Etritonakin said:

The government of God -and obedience to it -will allow for MORE freedom of expression and free up time otherwise spent in conflict.
Personal responsibility and will to obey that government will remove the need for excessive micromanagement.

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I think the stabilizing factor will be that the “Word of God” will rule the nations with a “rod of iron” after smiting those nations. (Revelation 19:15) I think your are confusing the nations with the chosen people of God, who will live in the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37:15-28).


New American Standard Bible (Revelation 19:15)
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Faithofchristian said:

Let's see, if I'm getting this right, your saying that God's elect are those who accept it
Accept what ?
What are they to accept exactly ?

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Jesus Christ as Savior

Faithofchristian said:

Have you any idea who God's elect are ?
Let's take the rapture, can you explain exactly how God's elect are to be Raptured out and be delivered up before the antichrist all at the same time during the tribulation
How exactly does this work ?

Whosever means -- Anyone and Everyone.

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When Christ calls believers they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and meet Him in the clouds.

Narrated Abdallah Bin Amro : Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) said: God has written the fates of all creatures before He created the earths and heavens by 50 000 years, His throne was on water. Book of Muslim

Elnuman Bin Basheer said in his disease of which he died said: the Prophet says (the first thing God created was the pen and said to it: write down" It wrote everything to happen to the Last

2ndpillar said:

I think the stabilizing factor will be that the “Word of God” will rule the nations with a “rod of iron” after smiting those nations. (Revelation 19:15) I think your are confusing the nations with the chosen people of God, who will live in the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37:15-28).


New American Standard Bible (Revelation 19:15)
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

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No -I was speaking of those who are made immortal -not those who live on as humans to repopulate the earth after the great tribulation spoken of by Christ (essentially WWIII) and the day of the Lord.

Those made immortal will "inherit the Earth" by reigning with Christ on Earth as kings and priests for the thousand years which follow his return.
Those humans of all nations who live on into the thousand years will all go up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles each year -or they will receive no rain.
Christ will indeed rule with a rod of iron, but will essentially be enforcing peace as the law goes forth from Jerusalem and the nature of life on Eaeth is changed.
All of the tribes of Israel who live on as humans will be reunited (Israel had split into the two houses of Judah and Israel) and dwell in the holy land.
There will be only one more attempt at war after the thousand years -which will be put down.

As of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end, humans will continue to reproduce on Earth -eventually being made immortal -and the "children of God" will inherit the entire creation -including the heavens which were "formed to be inhabited" -and will not remain only on Earth.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Zech 14:16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, thatwhoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Phil 3:21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Romans 8:18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

InChrist said:

Jesus Christ as Savior


When Christ calls believers they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye and meet Him in the clouds.

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Can you explain exactly what those clouds are.
you do know those are not clouds that you see above the earth.
Maybe you should read the book of Revelation and see what those clouds are exactly.

And you haven't explain how God's elect can be raptured out and be delivered up before the antichrist during the tribulation.
All at the same time.so how does this work?

Etritonakin said:

As of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end, humans will continue to reproduce on Earth -eventually being made immortal -and the "children of God" will inherit the entire creation -including the heavens which were "formed to be inhabited" -and will not remain only on Earth.

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Except for those saints risen from the dead, the rest of mankind will die in their time. If they are not thought of as accursed, they will live to at least 100 years of age. (Isaiah 65:20) Those who die will all be raised from the dead and be judged (Revelation 20:13).

New American Standard Bible Isaiah 65:20
"No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

2ndpillar said:

Except for those saints risen from the dead, the rest of mankind will die in their time. If they are not thought of as accursed, they will live to at least 100 years of age. (Isaiah 65:20) Those who die will all be raised from the dead and be judged (Revelation 20:13).

New American Standard Bible Isaiah 65:20
"No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

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So who is the dead in Revelation 20:13

Faithofchristian said:

So who is the dead in Revelation 20:13

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All those in the grave, who have been there since they died. That would include all those with the "mark the beast" (Revelation 20:4) who have been in the grave for a long time.

2ndpillar said:

All those in the grave, who have been there since they died. That would include all those with the "mark the beast" (Revelation 20:4) who have been in the grave for a long time.

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Are you absolutely sure about that.

Faithofchristian said:

Are you absolutely sure about that.

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It seems quite straight forward.

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.…

2ndpillar said:

It seems quite straight forward.

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.…

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So who do you suppose the dead are?

In Revelation 13:4 the sea gave up the dead.
What does the sea represents in the book of Revelation and what people represents the dead ?