That darned trinity.

Trailblazer said:

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

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I can also say the following:

Jesus referred to Himself a a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as a Manifestation.

I can then quote the same verses you did, which shows, once again, why "proof texting" is insufficient to establish a viable, cohesive or defensible Christology:

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Trailblazer said:

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

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Okay...just to continue my assertion on "proof texting":

Jesus IS NOT a Manifestation Bible Quotes....Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

(Continued on next post)

Trailblazer said:

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

That does not mean Jesus was God.

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It certainly did to the Jews, and that was his audience.

Trailblazer said:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

That means that the Word, God, was manifested in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. It means that when God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That does not mean that God became flesh, but rather that the Attributes of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed God to humanity.

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John 1:14 reads as follows:


As you can see there is no mention of a “Manifestation” (Εικόνα) whatsoever. That is a word foreign to the verse. The word became flesh, not “manifested” flesh.

Look, if I started reading through the 10 Commandments:


And every time I rattled off a commandment, the church would shout "On Sundays!", would you believe them?

Likewise do not believe "Manifestation". It's not there.

Trailblazer said:

Your analogy does not work because Koreans and Korean-Americans are like entities, because they are both humans. God and humans are not like entities and God cannot become a human.

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That's okay. Let's find an analogy that works for you then.


Do you see the problem?

Trailblazer said:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It means that when God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

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It does not say Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and the Word became flesh… It says the word became flesh. There is no “manifestation”.

Trailblazer said:

That does not mean that God became flesh, but rather that the Attributes of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed God to humanity.

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“The Word became flesh” means the Word became flesh, and the “Word became flesh” means God became flesh because “…the Word was God”. There is no mention…nada, zero…of “attributes” in John 1:1 or John 1:14.

Trailblazer said:

What are they mediating from and to? A mediator mediates between two entities. He cannot BE the same as the entity that He mediated from.

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So one man cannot mediate anything between two other men? Should it be a women who mediates then?

Trailblazer said:

There has to be something in between that is mediated.

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It is the dispute that is between them. Otherwise there's nothing for anyone, or any entity, to mediate.

This seems all rather straightforward and I'm not understanding how you came to believe or be convinced otherwise. You really need to go into more detail regarding the necessity of an "unlike entity".

Trailblazer said:

Korean man mediates between America and Korea.
There are three entities here: (1) Korean man, (2) America, and (3) Korea.

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There are 3 men (or women if you prefer) mediating. Neither has to be “unlike” the other entity.

Trailblazer said:

Jesus mediates between God and man.
There are three entities here: (1) Jesus, (2) God, and (3) man.

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Jesus mediates precisely because he is fully God and man.

Trailblazer said:

All I can say is that this verse speaks for itself.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

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Finally something we can agree on! [/QUOTE]

Oeste said:

The Baha'i Christology is confusing.

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It can be indeed. That is because Baha'u'llah has taken this knowledge to a higher level to which we still struggle to understand.

What we do know is that even the Manifestations themselves do not Know God in Essence, thay are One and All the Attributes.

This passage will give you the idea if what we now must consider;

“I testify before God,” proclaims Bahá’u’lláh, “to the greatness, the inconceivable greatness of this Revelation. Again and again have We in most of Our Tablets borne witness to this truth, that mankind may be roused from its heedlessness.” “In this most mighty Revelation,” He unequivocally announces, “all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation.” “That which hath been made manifest in this préeminent, this most exalted Revelation, stands unparalleled in the annals of the past, nor will future ages witness its like.” “He it is,” referring to Himself He further proclaims, “Who in the Old Testament hath been named Jehovah, Who in the Gospel hath been designated as the Spirit of Truth, and in the Qur’án acclaimed as the Great Announcement.” “But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the robe of prophethood, nor would any of the sacred scriptures have been revealed. To this bear witness all created things.” “The word which the one true God uttereth in this day, though that word be the most familiar and commonplace of terms, is invested with supreme, with unique distinction.”

Regards Tony

Trailblazer said:

Since God cannot communicate directly to man (no tie of direct intercourse) that is why we need a mediator.

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Where do you get the idea that God cannot communicate with His creation?

God has placed limits on us but you place limits on God by saying He can't communicate, and the only God I know that has limits placed upon Him by man are the pagan gods. Since we're limited, the pagan gods are limited also, but not the Christian God of scripture.

This is wholly unscriptural. We need a mediator because we have fallen into sin, not because God is unable to communicate.

Trailblazer said:

There is also no physical matter as we know it in the spiritual world so there are no geographical places. That means there can be no such places as heaven or hell, and those are states of the soul, distance and nearness to God, respectively.

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You have common ground with the atheists then. They don't believe there is a heaven or hell either, but for different reasons.

Trailblazer said:

Jesus was a mysterious and ethereal being who was mediator... So Jesus was not FULLY God and FULLY man; Jesus was partly God and partly man. ½ God + ½ man = 1 Manifestation of God (Jesus).

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So if I have a ½ man I have a half manifestation? And how do you get a half God when God is One and not 1 ½? The math just doesn’t add up.

There are no half, third or quarter “parts” to God. There is one God and only one God. There are no other Gods, including half-Gods, beside Him. If you take “half” of God and stick it in Jesus, then both are now “half Gods”. That would be scripturally illogical, but at least it would be mathematically consistent.

Oeste said:

No Other Gospel

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

10Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. (Galatians 1)

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Trailblazer said:

The Baha’i Faith is not “another Gospel.” Only Jesus has a Gospel.

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So Paul was incorrect when he stated there were others?

Trailblazer said:

The Baha’i Faith is a further Revelation from God, separate from the Bible, albeit connected, since there is only one religion of God.

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If it is separate from the Bible than it is a different gospel.

Also, if there is only one religion of God, which religion is it?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Jesus is a flesh body and did not Jesus say 'the Flesh amounts to nothing'. Did not Jesus say 'why call me good there is none good but God'. Did not Jesus say 'not my will but Thy Will be done'.

Christ in the Station of the Son is what is One with God, Muhammad made this clear in the mid 600's with this passage;

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.

— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

Islamic view of the Trinity - Wikipedia

Jesus was a Messenger from God. Christ in the Station of the Son was the Holy Spirit within Jesus.

It is that same Spirit that is in all of Gods Messengers/Prophets/Apostles.

Regards Tony

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I believe so but your statements are pointless.

I believe that is not in the text and was inserted by people who like to antagonize Christians instead of believing in God.

I believe this statement is meaningless but perhaps you can clarify what you mean.

This is not a very clear passage which explains why Muslims get so muddled up with it.

I believe that is patently false, else the ones beside Jesus would have been sinless and they were not.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It can be indeed. That is because Baha'u'llah has taken this knowledge to a higher level to which we still struggle to understand.

What we do know is that even the Manifestations themselves do not Know God in Essence, thay are One and All the Attributes.

This passage will give you the idea if what we now must consider;

“I testify before God,” proclaims Bahá’u’lláh, “to the greatness, the inconceivable greatness of this Revelation. Again and again have We in most of Our Tablets borne witness to this truth, that mankind may be roused from its heedlessness.” “In this most mighty Revelation,” He unequivocally announces, “all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation.” “That which hath been made manifest in this préeminent, this most exalted Revelation, stands unparalleled in the annals of the past, nor will future ages witness its like.” “He it is,” referring to Himself He further proclaims, “Who in the Old Testament hath been named Jehovah, Who in the Gospel hath been designated as the Spirit of Truth, and in the Qur’án acclaimed as the Great Announcement.” “But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the robe of prophethood, nor would any of the sacred scriptures have been revealed. To this bear witness all created things.” “The word which the one true God uttereth in this day, though that word be the most familiar and commonplace of terms, is invested with supreme, with unique distinction.”

Regards Tony

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I believe God is not the author of confusion but we know who is. I believe confusion is not a higher level of understanding.

It is not the church that just tried to override Colossians 2:9. You need to be able to reconcile “all the fullness of Deity” with your assertion. “All” to me does not mean 33, 50, or 300 percent.

You should not deify Paul. Paul has his opinion and it is not necessarily infallible. Christ did not set up Paul or anybody to be the infallible interpreter. Besides this you are taking what he said too literally. Christ reflected all of the attributes of God perfectly so He had all of the fullness of Diety in a sense.

I believe this because of Baha'u'llah. I investigated Baha'u'llah, saw that all of His fruits were good so He was a Prophet of God. Your opinion is nothing compared to Baha'u'llah.

Where do you get the idea that God cannot communicate with His creation?

God has placed limits on us but you place limits on God by saying He can't communicate, and the only God I know that has limits placed upon Him by man are the pagan gods. Since we're limited, the pagan gods are limited also, but not the Christian God of scripture.

This is wholly unscriptural. We need a mediator because we have fallen into sin, not because God is unable to communicate.

In a sense God does communictate with us through the Holy Spirit. But to experience the Holy Spirit we must be pure, we do not all communicate with the Holy Spirit. In fact it is relatively rare. The Holy Spirit is not a voice, it is Spirit. If you hear a voice it is your own imagination. I know this because I have experienced the Holy Spirit at times. If you experience the Holy Spirit, you should be in ecstasy, otherwise you are not communicating with the Holy Spirit.

Christ is our connection with God through the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that cannot forgive us without the crucifixion of Christ. He did die for us, but that is not the reason. I believe this because I believe in Baha'u'llah. All of Baha'u'llah's fruits are good so He is a true Prophet.

Oeste said:

It is not the church that just tried to override Colossians 2:9. You need to be able to reconcile “all the fullness of Deity” with your assertion. “All” to me does not mean 33, 50, or 300 percent.

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Truthseeker9 said:

You should not deify Paul.

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Christians believe Paul’s words are true. That does not mean we “deify” Paul.

Earlier today some friends told me something I also believe true. Have I deified them?

Truthseeker9 said:

Paul has his opinion and it is not necessarily infallible. Christ did not set up Paul or anybody to be the infallible interpreter. Besides this you are taking what he said too literally. Christ reflected all of the attributes of God perfectly so He had all of the fullness of Diety in a sense.

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“Deity in a sense” is not how Paul put it. It is how you put it. If Paul had been inspired to say “Deity in a sense” he would have said it and you would not have to add it.

Truthseeker9 said:

Your opinion is nothing compared to Baha'u'llah.

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That is your opinion.

Truthseeker9 said:

In a sense God does communictate with us through the Holy Spirit. But to experience the Holy Spirit we must be pure, we do not all communicate with the Holy Spirit. In fact it is relatively rare. The Holy Spirit is not a voice, it is Spirit. If you hear a voice it is your own imagination. I know this because I have experienced the Holy Spirit at times. If you experience the Holy Spirit, you should be in ecstasy, otherwise you are not communicating with the Holy Spirit.

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That is alien to scripture.

Truthseeker9 said:

I believe this because I believe in Baha'u'llah.

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Trinitarians can reconcile both verses and believe in Jesus…without our hearts being troubled...only because Jesus is God.

Gerry said:

How can Jesus not be equal with God?

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I think there are different ways of looking at equality. I believe that Jesus Christ is equal to God the Father in terms of their divine nature. In other words, both are equally loving, just, merciful, charitable, knowledgeable, compassionate, etc. In terms of what I would describe as authority, however, Jesus Christ stated that His Father was greater than He. He said, as a matter of fact, that His Father was not merely His Father, but His God. It's kind of like the ranks in the military. In the U.S. Army, a Lieutenant is not "equal to" a General in rank, although as a human being he may be at least his equal or even his superior.

Katzpur said:

I think there are different ways of looking at equality. I believe that Jesus Christ is equal to God the Father in terms of their divine nature. In other words, both are equally loving, just, merciful, charitable, knowledgeable, compassionate, etc. In terms of what I would describe as authority, however, Jesus Christ stated that His Father was greater than He. He said, as a matter of fact, that His Father was not merely His Father, but His God. It's kind of like the ranks in the military. In the U.S. Army, a Lieutenant is not "equal to" a General in rank, although as a human being he may be at least his equal or even his superior.

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I think Jesus was both human and divine.
The divine was within Him. He was God living within a human nature, while on earth.
He is God, not a separate person.
He is referred as the ‘son’ or the ‘son of God’ or the ‘son of man’ in the Bible.
If you look at all the instances of such, he is called the son or the son of God when the subject is His divinity, His divine power, His being one with the Father or life from him.
All times being referred to the son of man is when the subject is His suffering, and judging, redeeming, saving, regenerating, or reforming us.
There are differences for a reason.
Yet He is still God.
However, prior to His ascension he had a human nature. That human nature was less than the Father. Upon His ascension His human nature became divine.

Gerry said:

I think Jesus was both human and divine.

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Me too.

The divine was within Him. He was God living within a human nature, while on earth.

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I can go along with that.

He is God, not a separate person.

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Okay, here's where I don't follow what you're saying. Are you saying that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same? Or do you believe they are they in any way distinct from one another? If they are in any way, distinct from one another, in what way would that be? If they are not, in any way, distinct from one another, we need to talk a bit more to iron out a few questions I have.

He is referred as the ‘son’ or the ‘son of God’ or the ‘son of man’ in the Bible.
If you look at all the instances of such, he is called the son or the son of God when the subject is His divinity, His divine power, His being one with the Father or life from him.
All times being referred to the son of man is when the subject is His suffering, and judging, redeeming, saving, regenerating, or reforming us.
There are differences for a reason.
Yet He is still God.

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I agree.

However, prior to His ascension he had a human nature. That human nature was less than the Father. Upon His ascension His human nature became divine.

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Are you saying that He wasn't divine until his ascension? Don't you believe He was divine prior to His birth here on earth? Don't you believe He performed miracles through His own power? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from exactly.

Katzpur said:

exactly.

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Good luck with that.

savagewind said:

Good luck with that.

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Love the sarcasm, savagewind.

If He had a divine Father and a mortal mother, He would share in their attributes, wouldn't He? He would be subject to all of the appetites and weaknesses that we as humans have, and yet be able to have control over the very elements, as only God can.

Katzpur said:

Love the sarcasm, savagewind.

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I love you! Why? You are one who is left with her brain intact. I can't really say what is wrong with the others.

If He had a divine Father and a mortal mother, He would share in their attributes, wouldn't He? He would be subject to all of the appetites and weaknesses that we as humans have, and yet be able to have control over the very elements, as only God can.

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Very good!

Oeste said:

Christians believe Paul’s words are true. That does not mean we “deify” Paul.

Earlier today some friends told me something I also believe true. Have I deified them?



“Deity in a sense” is not how Paul put it. It is how you put it. If Paul had been inspired to say “Deity in a sense” he would have said it and you would not have to add it.



That is your opinion.

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Christians believe Paul’s words are true. That does not mean we “deify” Paul.

Earlier today some friends told me something I also believe true. Have I deified them?

Sorry about that. I went too far with that. Not all Christians believe Paul's Word is true. Even is they did, they still could be wrong.

Truthseeker9 said:

Christians believe Paul’s words are true. That does not mean we “deify” Paul.

Earlier today some friends told me something I also believe true. Have I deified them?

Sorry about that. I went too far with that. Not all Christians believe Paul's Word is true. Even is they did, they still could be wrong.

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There is another perspective. Maybe what Paul actually heard is lost.
Did Paul know the truth and communicate it? Why not? I think it is purely possible. But, I am as certain as the rain that after him people have changed what he said to suit themselves.

I know it is a FACT that what people think Paul said some of it is not true.

Katzpur said:

Me too.

I can go along with that.

Okay, here's where I don't follow what you're saying. Are you saying that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same? Or do you believe they are they in any way distinct from one another? If they are in any way, distinct from one another, in what way would that be? If they are not, in any way, distinct from one another, we need to talk a bit more to iron out a few questions I have.

I agree.

Are you saying that He wasn't divine until his ascension? Don't you believe He was divine prior to His birth here on earth? Don't you believe He performed miracles through His own power? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from exactly.

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Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I see only one God. Mainly because the Bible says so. It uses the word ‘one’ dozens of times. Also, the word savior, redeemer, etc are stated many times throughout the OT in association with God. And we know who is our savior.
So the three entities many Christians refer to as persons are simply God. God is the Father. Probably no one denies this.
Jesus was divine and is God. The Word is God.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, nor an entity. It is the divine nature flowing from God. It flows to all humans, but all do not choose to let it flow through them.
The Lord is the Word, and the entire Word is about the Lord.

Jesus, the human did not exist prior to conception. God did. Obviously. The Lord from eternity took on human nature to save us.
When He was on earth he had a human nature given to him from Mary. He had a divine nature from God. That’s why he is called the son of God. We cannot be sons of God, because we do not have the divine nature. There can only be one God.
He performed miracles as God. God can do that. I don’t claim to be an expert, far from it. Plus I’m not super good at getting my understanding across, but I hope this helps.

Thanks for your interest. Always nice to have a great conversation. Almost all of my relatives are Mormon, and I find most all Mormons easy to talk to. The only one I cannot talk to about things like this is my mother. But that’s another story.

Gerry said:

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

I see only one God. Mainly because the Bible says so. It uses the word ‘one’ dozens of times. Also, the word savior, redeemer, etc are stated many times throughout the OT in association with God. And we know who is our savior.
So the three entities many Christians refer to as persons are simply God. God is the Father. Probably no one denies this.
Jesus was divine and is God. The Word is God.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, nor an entity. It is the divine nature flowing from God. It flows to all humans, but all do not choose to let it flow through them.
The Lord is the Word, and the entire Word is about the Lord.

Jesus, the human did not exist prior to conception. God did. Obviously. The Lord from eternity took on human nature to save us.
When He was on earth he had a human nature given to him from Mary. He had a divine nature from God. That’s why he is called the son of God. We cannot be sons of God, because we do not have the divine nature. There can only be one God.
He performed miracles as God. God can do that. I don’t claim to be an expert, far from it. Plus I’m not super good at getting my understanding across, but I hope this helps.

Thanks for your interest. Always nice to have a great conversation. Almost all of my relatives are Mormon, and I find most all Mormons easy to talk to. The only one I cannot talk to about things like this is my mother. But that’s another story.

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Well, you know what? Since you seem to be such a nice person and have found contentment and satisfaction in what you believe, I'm not even going to attempt to change your mind about any of it. After all, none of us knows anything for sure, do we? We're all just trying to follow the path that feels best for us and doing the best we can in dealing with our unanswered questions. So, that you for your response, too!