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So what do atheist Buddhists believe?

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
"Saṃsāra (Sanskrit, Pali; also samsara) in Buddhism is the beginning-less cycle of repeated birth, mundane existence and dying again." This is from WIKI. In what form rebirth and death manifest itself? Gnostic reincarnation is individuality is born again as a new personality.

In Buddhism there have been a number of views throughout the religion's history about rebirth, and guess what? They're all human speculation about something beyond our scope. Buddhists don't have to understand everything the Buddha taught. Indeed, our human faculties cannot grasp things beyond their ability.

This brings us to why Mahayana has traditionally always insisted on the Buddha being more than just any other man. The Buddha knew things just any man doesn't know. One transcends humanity here now when they attain Anutara Samyak Sambodhi, must be what we can infer from the Buddha, and they see everything exactly as it is.

It is not for a Buddhist to think we must always understand the Buddha, and the things he knew through his transcendent knowledge, but it is for us that we have faith in the Blessed One. That he knew what he was talking about, even if we don't grasp the whole picture.

This is why it has been said that the Buddha and the Dharma are something one has faith in. Something else a secularist might scoff at, I reckon.
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Why we live here on the material plane? In my understanding only existence of self in soul - spirit form explains it. Self is going evolution in material world in preparation to existence in higher quality worlds. Death of physical body is just a reset button that allows evaluation of progress of evolution.
I don't know if many atheist Buddhists (per the OP) believe that.
 

socharlie

Active Member
In Buddhism there have been a number of views throughout the religion's history about rebirth, and guess what? They're all human speculation about something beyond our scope. Buddhists don't have to understand everything the Buddha taught. Indeed, our human faculties cannot grasp things beyond their ability.

This brings us to why Mahayana has traditionally always insisted on the Buddha being more than just any other man. The Buddha knew things just any man doesn't know. One transcends humanity here now when they attain Anutara Samyak Sambodhi, must be what we can infer from the Buddha, and they see everything exactly as it is.

It is not for a Buddhist to think we must always understand the Buddha, and the things he knew through his transcendent knowledge, but it is for us that we have faith in the Blessed One. That he knew what he was talking about, even if we don't grasp the whole picture.

This is why it has been said that the Buddha and the Dharma are something one has faith in. Something else a secularist might scoff at, I reckon.
I can relate to this. Gnosticism does not hold information they receive as cast in concrete, rather everyone has his/her own knowledge.
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
So what do atheist Buddhists believe?

The path is about abandoning proliferation and directly experiencing dharma. Clinging to beliefs of any kind (assertion and denial) does not help facilitate this.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
There's lots of Supernatural nonsense and BS introduced into Buddhism. Things like karma and reincarnation for instance are as empty as the thoughts that bring it up.

Interestingly nuff, even rebirth for which I'm privy to a form of, is not exempt from emptiness.

If karma and reincarnation are 'nonsense' and 'BS' to you then why bother be a Buddhist at all?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If there are no Gods in atheist Buddhism then who sets the rules for karma and reincarnation if those theories are believed in at all?
Karma is simple action and consequence, with no intent nor purpose.

To a considerable extent, ethical parameters derive from the consequences themselves. There is no true need for supernatural readings.

Reincarnation is a Hindu belief, not a Buddhist one.

Rebirth, which is a different belief and is Buddhist, deals instead with constructs with no substance, that arise and dissolve according to circunstances and environment. It, too, has no supernatural aspects that I can notice.

What happens to the soul after death?
It dissolves. Hence Anatta. As I understand it, what is called "soul" is essentially an accident of perception.

What is nirvana or enlightenment without God?

Pretty much the same that it would be with God, I must assume.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Karma is simple action and consequence, with no intent nor purpose.

If that were the case, it wouldn't matter. The Buddha taught it matters.

To a considerable extent, ethical parameters derive from the consequences themselves. There is no true need for supernatural readings.

Now you're saying consequences do have a purpose?

I'll let 2000+ years of Buddhist teachers determine for me if there is no true need of supernatural readings or not. Especially when they had faith in the Blessed One's words, and not individual conclusions.

Individual conclusions mean nothing in Buddhism when pit against the words of an enlightened Buddha with the penetrating eye of Nirvana.

If the Buddha is not to be believed about the supernatural aspects of his teaching- the entire enterprise is cast into doubt.

Reincarnation is a Hindu belief, not a Buddhist one.

I am not sure what the point of this statement is. Hindus and Buddhists in history believe in nearly identical views of rebirth, if you insist on it being called that. The only difference, and it's a very minor difference- is the Hindu insistence on an atman.

Rebirth, which is a different belief and is Buddhist, deals instead with constructs with no substance, that arise and dissolve according to circunstances and environment.

What is it that does not arise and dissolve? Mind reading the Heart Sutra, or shall I?

Hence Anatta.

Anatta is not clearly lack of real substance, as described in the Samyutta Nikaya. Much less in Mahayana texts, which describe Nirvana as a mark of existence.

In my opinion, Anatta is either a refutation of an atman view that no longer exists among Hindus as we observe them today, or is a term of minimal expediency- to turn focus to practice rather than speculation.

Pretty much the same that it would be with God, I must assume.

Now here I agree.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Pretty much the same that it would be with God, I must assume.
IMHO, Buddhist enlightenment is complete understanding of the way of the impermanent. When all questions about that are answered, then it is 'nirvana'.
If the Buddha is not to be believed about the supernatural aspects of his teaching - the entire enterprise is cast into doubt.
I think that was for 'Hoi polloi'.
Hoi polloi - Wikipedia
In my opinion, Anatta is either a refutation of an atman view that no longer exists among Hindus as we observe them today, ..
Barring for a few renegades like me, belief in 'atman' is as strong as ever in Hinduism. I am lambasted for my disbelief again and again. :D
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If that were the case, it wouldn't matter. The Buddha taught it matters.

Sorry, but I think you are simply mistaken here. Why would the lack of intent or purpose make it not matter?

Now you're saying consequences do have a purpose?

No. I see a difference between things that matter and things that have a purpose. Don't you?


I'll let 2000+ years of Buddhist teachers determine for me if there is no true need of supernatural readings or not. Especially when they had faith in the Blessed One's words, and not individual conclusions.

Your privilege.

Of course, one that involves refusal to accept the advice to be our own lights and our own refuges, which the likes of Bodhidharma and even many of the direct disciples of the Tatagatha took to heart. But your choices are indeed yours to make.


Individual conclusions mean nothing in Buddhism when pit against the words of an enlightened Buddha with the penetrating eye of Nirvana.

I so disagree.


If the Buddha is not to be believed about the supernatural aspects of his teaching- the entire enterprise is cast into doubt.

Doubt is good. Doubt is a prerequisite for learning.


I am not sure what the point of this statement is. Hindus and Buddhists in history believe in nearly identical views of rebirth, if you insist on it being called that. The only difference, and it's a very minor difference- is the Hindu insistence on an atman.

I suppose that the weight of that discordance between Anatta and Atman - one of the very few that make Buddhism separate from Hinduism - will be determined by the expectations with which examines it.

If you want to believe that rebirth is reincarnation, no one will be able to stop you.


What is it that does not arise and dissolve? Mind reading the Heart Sutra, or shall I?

Be my guest. I am not big on scriptures. Not even Suttas.


Anatta is not clearly lack of real substance, as described in the Samyutta Nikaya. Much less in Mahayana texts, which describe Nirvana as a mark of existence.

Agreed.

Anatta, however, is in opposition to Atman, a denial of Atman as a valid concept for the Buddhadharma.

What that entails exactly is only understood on an individual level. And may very easily make no sense whatsoever outside of that field. The Dhamma can't exist on words alone.

In my opinion, Anatta is either a refutation of an atman view that no longer exists among Hindus as we observe them today, or is a term of minimal expediency- to turn focus to practice rather than speculation.

That may well be.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Actually rebirth and reincarnation are not Buddhist concepts. It's just something that got cropped in and people suddenly started calling it Buddhism one day.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Sorry, but I think you are simply mistaken here. Why would the lack of intent or purpose make it not matter?

I am not saying it would. Only that I accept what the Buddha taught it is about. There is a difference between faith and saying what a thing might reasonably be or not be- is there not?

No. I see a difference between things that matter and things that have a purpose. Don't you?

Most people don't divide the two from each other, but if you elaborate some more- you'll provide me something to think about. I can always change my mind, if I can be convinced.

Your privilege.

Yes. It is also yours to approach the Dharma as you will. I've said it in other threads: I qualify that the secular approach is not Buddhism much more for non-Buddhists, than I do a secularist that has taken on any degree of practice.

Indeed, I'm not going to stop you. I think I would be disobeying the Buddha then, who taught even a little Dharma practiced is immeasurably meritorious.

I do feel somewhat of a duty though to present the other side- that of traditional Buddhism. Funnily enough, not even traditional Buddhism as according to Mahayana only. Mahayana and Theravada agree roughly 94% concerning the Dharma, and disagree on some elements that aren't fundamental enough to make a big deal about.

Of course, one that involves refusal to accept the advice to be our own lights and our own refuges, which the likes of Bodhidharma and even many of the direct disciples of the Tatagatha took to heart. But your choices are indeed yours to make.

I don't deny that aspect. I am sure it is more a difference in emphasis on what is said. I don't think the Buddha taught his Dharma is a buffet line. Of course, one makes the choice to believe him or not.

I so disagree.

Very well.

Doubt is good. Doubt is a prerequisite for learning.

Doubt can also kill you, if you doubt you're about to do the thing that would save your life- even though it would save you.

I suppose that the weight of that discordance between Anatta and Atman - one of the very few that make Buddhism separate from Hinduism - will be determined by the expectations with which examines it.

If you want to believe that rebirth is reincarnation, no one will be able to stop you.

I grant you on your first paragraph there. That is fair enough. I don't think a Buddhist can make too definitive a conclusion about Anatta.

I don't think rebirth is reincarnation though. I only think that they aren't as different as some might play up. Some historical Buddhist thought has questioned exactly what it is born again in the cycle. Theravadans especially are keen to believe the skandhas themselves are reborn, given a connection they share with atoms.

Mahayanists reject Abidhamma for the most part, but has had it's own theories.

Be my guest. I am not big on scriptures. Not even Suttas.

The Heart Sutra says the Dharmas have an utterly mysterious reality, which appears to us void because we have no reference point to it in the world of forms. This is shown in the line: "the characteristics of the voidness of all Dharmas is that they are not created or destroyed, not stained and not pure, etc."

You'll note I'm sure that the voidness of Dharmas is stated to be something. Dharma voidness is marked with characteristics. There are translations that are even more strong in language there. Like saying Dharmas are 'forms of' emptiness.

This all relates with Tathata, and some other Mahayana concepts. It isn't based in just the Heart Sutra, but that's the easiest, most readily accessible text I can show it from.

Anatta, however, is in opposition to Atman, a denial of Atman as a valid concept for the Buddhadharma.

It is questionable how opposed Anatta is to all ideas of the Atman. However, since I'm a Buddhist, I naturally affirm Anatta. I question sometimes rather that affirmation is out of expediency or bare fact. I believe as Buddhists we are to affirm Anatta because of usefulness.

The Buddha has given us permission to put that question aside, as it were. I am not sure this places the gulf between us and Hindus that it is sometimes said it does. I think what Buddhists do is go a step further than even Vedantists. The Vedantist says the Atman is somehow a necessary concept, even though they affirm no difference between it and Brahman.

As a Mahayanist that believes in Buddha-nature, I think what Buddhists say to Vedantists is: no, there is no need to speak of an Atman here. Where can an Atman exist apart from Ultimate Reality? This is a concept with very little use except to cause confusion and debate.

An Atman may or may not exist, but it isn't necessary. It can be put aside.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Time is at a premium, and so is my internet access at this time, but:

I am not saying it would. Only that I accept what the Buddha taught it is about. There is a difference between faith and saying what a thing might reasonably be or not be- is there not?

Yes. Not always a clear difference, but I fail to see why that would matter here in either case.

Most people don't divide the two from each other, but if you elaborate some more- you'll provide me something to think about. I can always change my mind, if I can be convinced.

Purpose means intent. Things that matter may easily be accidental or even actively avoided, yet real all the same.

I take issue with your claim that most people don't distinguish the two qualities. I would claim the opposite to be true.

Yes. It is also yours to approach the Dharma as you will. I've said it in other threads: I qualify that the secular approach is not Buddhism much more for non-Buddhists, than I do a secularist that has taken on any degree of practice.
Secular approach?

I don't think that applies here.

Indeed, I'm not going to stop you. I think I would be disobeying the Buddha then, who taught even a little Dharma practiced is immeasurably meritorious.

Where or how am I disobeying him then?

I do feel somewhat of a duty though to present the other side- that of traditional Buddhism. Funnily enough, not even traditional Buddhism as according to Mahayana only. Mahayana and Theravada agree roughly 94% concerning the Dharma, and disagree on some elements that aren't fundamental enough to make a big deal about.

I don't think you are any more traditional than me, actually. More of a traditionalist according to some understandings of the word, perhaps.

I don't deny that aspect. I am sure it is more a difference in emphasis on what is said. I don't think the Buddha taught his Dharma is a buffet line. Of course, one makes the choice to believe him or not.
Eh. Can Dharma even exist without personal actualization?

I don't think so.

Doubt can also kill you, if you doubt you're about to do the thing that would save your life- even though it would save you.

How would that apply here, if at all?


(It will take some time to reply to the remaining text).
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Time is at a premium, and so is my internet access at this time, but:

I hope my responses seem worth your effort then. I acknowledge I can be rather crisp and direct.

Yes. Not always a clear difference, but I fail to see why that would matter here in either case.

Well I ask you the question: do you think the Buddha was someone to believe? A reliable source of knowledge?

Purpose means intent. Things that matter may easily be accidental or even actively avoided, yet real all the same.

I take issue with your claim that most people don't distinguish the two qualities. I would claim the opposite to be true.

Saying they are real and accidental becomes arbitrary to the utmost degree though. I think that's what materialists don't grasp. They make statements like real, true, worth, and value without realizing these imply something stronger than accidents.

Secular approach?

I don't think that applies here.

Of course it does. There is a marked difference in how Buddhism has been practiced throughout history, and the way westerners treat it. It is through western influence that easterners are even beginning to distort the Dharma and waver from it. I cannot tell you what a grave offense the west has committed given the Dharma is the way above heaven and earth. A secularist wouldn't think they'd done anything wrong, naturally.

The Buddha warned very clearly about the time of the degenerating Dharma, which hastens Maitreya's coming.

Where or how am I disobeying him then?

Do you believe the things he taught about karma and rebirth, and what must logically follow from those premises?

I don't think you are any more traditional than me, actually. More of a traditionalist according to some understandings of the word, perhaps.

So be it...

Eh. Can Dharma even exist without personal actualization?

I don't think so.

What is it that actualizes?

How would that apply here, if at all?

Parable of the Arrow
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I hope my responses seem worth your effort then. I acknowledge I can be rather crisp and direct.

That too. But that is ok.

What I have some issue with is your insistence on supernaturalism for supernaturalism's sake, at the expense of the naturalistic views that are so often clearly better.

Well I ask you the question: do you think the Buddha was someone to believe? A reliable source of knowledge?

Probably not. No one is. Of course, I do not need him - or anyone - to be.

Then again, I do not even ask such a question about anyone. It is just not worth the (minor) trouble, and the question has no upside to speak of in any case.

Saying they are real and accidental becomes arbitrary to the utmost degree though.
How or why so?

I think that's what materialists don't grasp. They make statements like real, true, worth, and value without realizing these imply something stronger than accidents.

They do? I really have no idea of what you are trying to say here. There is a vague sense of unbounded, excessive theism for the sake of theism, but that is tentative.


Of course it does. There is a marked difference in how Buddhism has been practiced throughout history, and the way westerners treat it. It is through western influence that easterners are even beginning to distort the Dharma and waver from it. I cannot tell you what a grave offense the west has committed given the Dharma is the way above heaven and earth. A secularist wouldn't think they'd done anything wrong, naturally.

Okay, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that matter then.

The Buddha warned very clearly about the time of the degenerating Dharma, which hastens Maitreya's coming.

And you attribute that to skepticism, of all things?

That is remarkable, but in a surprising way, not a convincing one.

Do you believe the things he taught about karma and rebirth, and what must logically follow from those premises?

I do not try to "believe" in things. That would be purposefully seeking fragility of stance for no good reason.

That said, the Buddhadharma is of remarkable value, yes.

What is it that actualizes?

Perception and understanding.

Parable of the Arrow

Uh, what? I must ask again. How would that apply here?
 

vijeno

Member
I'll say it now though in this thread, since you've made it. Secular Buddhists reject about 90% of what Buddhists all historically agree on- between the two vehicles. Some even reject karma, at which point one may very well wonder...why bother?

That's one reason why I don't call myself a buddhist. I take inspiration from some of the suttas, and from the general buddhist approach. I practice my meditation and try to be a decent human being. Apart from that, I reject all the metaphysical teachings, and I'm not very interested in the traditions and the history of buddhism - (well - I AM very much interested in all that, but only on an "academic" level, not in any personal way). So I see no point in using a confusing, unappropriate label (except to troll some politically correct christians, which, I must admit, can be a LOT of fun, lol!)
 
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