When, if ever, is it OK to lie?

PureX said:

Anyone got any ideas as to why we humans presume this, or how it become "a moral thing"?

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I used to have a pretty simple understanding of this. Lying is wrong, and that's just that.

One experience that gave me a much more nuanced view was facilitating a HIV/gay support group in a smallish city. I am fairly well known around here, and facilitating the meeting wasn't a secret. As a result, people would occasionally ask me questions about other people that was utterly and absolutely none of their business. Like "I heard that so and so has AIDS? Is that true?".
Well, on the one hand, I wouldn't be lying if I said something cagey like "You should ask them yourself." But I also knew that it would be taken as a "Yes". Especially when it was true. And it was my job to protect people's privacy. So I learned quickly to lie. "No! That's an ugly rumor that isn't true. And I would know because I facilitate the support group."
On the one hand, some of the regulars weren't just HIV positive, they were also sleazy. Lying about your status was common, specifically to get laid. That put other people at risk. If someone took my word, and got infected, it would in a way be the result of my flat lie. But in a way it would be the result of things way beyond my control, like having risky sex.
On the other hand, I was also committed to protecting people from the gossip mill, and all the trouble that causes.
I had to decide what was the right thing to do, which I decided was to tell dangerous lies. Because I decided that my task of protecting people's privacy outweighs protecting every sleazeball from contracting a fatal illness.

But that was really hard for me.
Tom

columbus said:

I used to have a pretty simple understanding of this. Lying is wrong, and that's just that.

One experience that gave me a much more nuanced view was facilitating a HIV/gay support group in a smallish city. I am fairly well known around here, and facilitating the meeting wasn't a secret. As a result, people would occasionally ask me questions about other people that was utterly and absolutely none of their business. Like "I heard that so and so has AIDS? Is that true?".
Well, on the one hand, I wouldn't be lying if I said something cagey like "You should ask them yourself." But I also knew that it would be taken as a "Yes". Especially when it was true. And it was my job to protect people's privacy. So I learned quickly to lie. "No! That's an ugly rumor that isn't true. And I would know because I facilitate the support group."
On the one hand, some of the regulars weren't just HIV positive, they were also sleazy. Lying about your status was common, specifically to get laid. That put other people at risk. If someone took my word, and got infected, it would in a way be the result of my flat lie. But in a way it would be the result of things way beyond my control, like having risky sex.
On the other hand, I was also committed to protecting people from the gossip mill, and all the trouble that causes.
I had to decide what was the right thing to do, which I decided was to tell dangerous lies. Because I decided that my task of protecting people's privacy outweighs protecting every sleazeball from contracting a fatal illness.

But that was really hard for me.
Tom

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Yeah, lying is a minefield. I tend to tell the truth, but do not shirk from lying when it is appropriate, nor do I have a guilty conscience over doing so.

A more light-hearted example is telling the truth to small kids about Santa, the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny. Do you really crush their dreams at a tender age? Seriously?

YmirGF said:

Lying is a basic part of human communication because many times the truth is not appropriate -- nor wanted!

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I remember the movie Liar Liar with Jim Carrey. *Grin*

Several different perspectives that illustrate why I find this a very deep question.

There is a teaching story in the East about lying that goes something like this: A holy man known for his honesty is sitting on a rock. A young woman runs up to him and pleads "There are men coming to rape me. Please hide me" The holy man hides the woman and sits down on a different rock. When the would-be rapers run up to him and demand "have you seen a young woman", he answers "not since I've been sitting here". In other words, he chooses his words to remain honest but allows the would-be criminals to make a wrong assumption.

From another source I can't find is a list of answers to a question based on the principle that questions are an intrusion. You can answer a question, refuse to answer and so forth.

Another view: if you believe that we are all in essence One and believe in Love, then anything you say that does not reflect your true beliefs is being dishonest to yourself and your beliefs.

From another place I read a question that was asked "I am a lawyer and my job depends on me defending clients that I sometimes come to believe are guilty after I take the case. Isn't this being utterly dishonest?". The answer was that not doing one's best to represent a client in that situation is being dishonest to one's promise to the client.

So from this mish-mash of viewpoints, my take away is that I should always be as honest as I can be because honesty is a Godly quality, that being dishonest from selfish motives is a mistake and that honesty rooted in love is the highest honesty.

YmirGF said:

Another part of the problem is that, like with my strange sister, she lies but THINKS she is telling the truth. In that respect, since she is saying what she believes to be true, is she really lying? It took me awhile to realize this with her. The point is demanding people speak truthfully may not actually get you too far as "truth" seems to be a variable depending on whom you are talking to.

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A fundamental rule of sales is that after a prospective customer says they are not interested ask them why. After the first reason ask if there are any more. The chances that the first reason sounded good and the 2nd reason is probably closer to the truth. Then, as a salesman, you may help them solve their problem.

I remember this every time I hear an excuse. It may not be far from the truth but it's not the truth. This is infallible when applied to politics.

sandy whitelinger said:

A fundamental rule of sales is that after a prospective customer says they are not interested ask them why. After the first reason ask if there are any more. The chances that the first reason sounded good and the 2nd reason is probably closer to the truth. Then, as a salesman, you may help them solve their problem.

I remember this every time I hear an excuse. It may not be far from the truth but it's not the truth. This is infallible when applied to politics.

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I know that well after 30 years in sales. (I was a master of the Puppy Dog closing technique.)
I think another aspect of this is that being perfectly truthful could often be considered rude.

I lie solely for comedic value.

I see no benefit to lying otherwise. If I feel the need to hide something to protect something or someone, and am confronted about it, I will outright admit I'm hiding whatever it is, and will not release it save a convincing argument to do so.

Lies I've told in the past have taken a greater toll on me psychologically than had I been forthcoming to begin with. For me, lying is a waste of energy that can be better used productively elsewhere.


...or is this post a lie?

YmirGF said:

Another part of the problem is that, like with my strange sister, she lies but THINKS she is telling the truth. In that respect, since she is saying what she believes to be true, is she really lying? It took me awhile to realize this with her. The point is demanding people speak truthfully may not actually get you too far as "truth" seems to be a variable depending on whom you are talking to.

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Perhaps the key is in the deception, rather than the lie. Is your sister trying to deceive you by lying to you?

George W. Bush lied to the whole nation about his reasons for invading Iraq, and subsequently for killing and maiming millions of human beings. But he was deliberately deceived into believing the lies he told us by Dick Cheney. So was George W. Bush truly responsible for all that loss of life?

My answer would be that he is, because he is responsible for allowing himself to be deceived regarding such an extremely important and life-threatening decision. But Dick Cheney is even more to blame, because he KNEW HE WAS DECEIVING the president; he knew that many lives would be placed in peril by his deception, and he still did so, deliberately.

columbus said:

I used to have a pretty simple understanding of this. Lying is wrong, and that's just that.

One experience that gave me a much more nuanced view was facilitating a HIV/gay support group in a smallish city. I am fairly well known around here, and facilitating the meeting wasn't a secret. As a result, people would occasionally ask me questions about other people that was utterly and absolutely none of their business. Like "I heard that so and so has AIDS? Is that true?".
Well, on the one hand, I wouldn't be lying if I said something cagey like "You should ask them yourself." But I also knew that it would be taken as a "Yes". Especially when it was true. And it was my job to protect people's privacy. So I learned quickly to lie. "No! That's an ugly rumor that isn't true. And I would know because I facilitate the support group."
On the one hand, some of the regulars weren't just HIV positive, they were also sleazy. Lying about your status was common, specifically to get laid. That put other people at risk. If someone took my word, and got infected, it would in a way be the result of my flat lie. But in a way it would be the result of things way beyond my control, like having risky sex.
On the other hand, I was also committed to protecting people from the gossip mill, and all the trouble that causes.
I had to decide what was the right thing to do, which I decided was to tell dangerous lies. Because I decided that my task of protecting people's privacy outweighs protecting every sleazeball from contracting a fatal illness.

But that was really hard for me.
Tom

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We live in an imperfect world, so that there are often no perfect solutions to these kinds of moral dilemmas. One of the problems I have always had with the more absolutist expressions of theism is the unrealistic and unfounded insistence that the goal is perfection because God is perfect and therefor demands perfection from us. And that "God's rules" are therefor also perfect and absolute. All this perfectionism is logically and functionally absurd, and puts the people who believe in it under great strain, and sets them up for endless frustration and failure.

In the real world, we can only try to honestly do what's best with the limited information and possibilities we are given. And after that, it's in God's hands, and it's God's responsibility.

lying is all around because the result is a web of deception and possible half-truths.

One area it is very important to never lie in is when it involves the police. In general, never lie to the cops. More often than not they are there to help you, not ruin your day. In other words, they have a good reason for having stopped you. If you are honest, admit to some minor infraction or whatever. Just admit it instead of yanking their chain as that will only tick them off. (IE. If they smell pot in the car, don't try to deny it. It's too late for that.) IF YOU HAVE committed a crime and there is a high probability you are facing arrest, simply say that you will be happy to answer their questions once your lawyer is present. Perhaps more importantly, remain civil and polite and do what you are instructed to do without any backtalk... and don't make sudden movements.

Sunstone said:

Personally, think it's ok to lie under certain circumstances such as when doing to protects an innocent person from harm. In fact, I think it might even be morally mandatory to lie in some circumstances.

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I somewhat agree... but that situation is very rare in practice, perhaps more so than it may appear at first, arguably to the point of near non-existence.

Why so? Because lies involve both a betrayal of trust and a challenge to facts. They are inherently fragile and hurtful, and therefore can't help but cause damage.

Even in situations where one has good reason not to reveal some inconvenient fact or opinion to someone else, misdirection tends to be more destructive than a honest attempt at refusal to share information or to state a disagreement or ideological difference.

If nothing else, it helps in maintaining a measure of trust and respect towards the refuser.

If you were protecting innocent people's lives from those who wish to harm them, harboring them inside of your house, that would be a reason to ''lie'' to authorities, telling them that you don't have anyone in your house, should they ask.

Scenarios like those, come to mind.

Or if my friend asks me if a dress she's trying on makes her look fat. lol

Just joking, I wouldn't hurt someone's feelings, but I would definitely steer her to a dress that might appear more flattering.

I stumbled upon a Aesop fable that fits very well with the idea that it might just be okay to lie in certain circumstances and remembered this thread. Here's the tale:

A fox sneaked into a farm and grabbed a prize rooster.

The farmer saw him and raised the alarm and he and his dogs started chasing the thief.

The fox, though he was holding the rooster in his mouth, was running very fast.

"Get him! Get him!" shouted the farmer to his dogs.

"No!" suddenly screamed the rooster. "Don't come near me!"

"My master was very cruel to me," explained the rooster to the fox. "Tell him to stay away from me."

The fox was delighted. "He wants you to stay away from him!" he shouted at the farmer, in the process releasing his hold on the rooster.

The rooster flew up into a tree and stayed there till he was rescued by his master.

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The rooster lies to deceive the one who wants to harm him into releasing him. The overall outcome obviously being better for the liar in this scenario than if nothing had been said at all.

Sunstone said:

The essential question is when, if ever, is it ok to lie?

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We are under no obligation to tell the truth to anyone who is trying to harm us or others. Wisdom dictates we take steps to avoid exploitation by such as these.

Truth is only for those who have earned our trust, or those we seek intimacy with.