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Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So Baha'is believe all people descended from Adam and Eve... About 6000 years ago?Everything is not in the Bible but just because it is not in the Bible does not mean it is not true.
Take a look at this genealogy chart: The Divine Standard Unfurled : Genealogy of Baha'u'llah
I did not want to post it before because it is not from an official Baha’i website, but it is the most detailed genealogy chart I know of. The squabbles between the real Baha’is and the Covenant-breakers do not really matter... They got the genealogy which leads to Baha’u’llah...That is what matters....
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know if anyone has kept records of ALL of this but ALL the records certainly are not recorded in the Bible, since it stops with Jesus.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, we certainly do not believe that. Adam ushered in the Cycle of Prophecy, which is part of the present Universal Cycle of religion. Humans existed long before Adam and Eve. Before the present Universal Cycle there were many other Universal Cycles of religion.
TABLE: BAHA'I SACRED HISTORY
I. PREVIOUS UNIVERSAL CYCLES - of which no trace remains
II. PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE
· A. ADAMIC CYCLE, CYCLE OF PROPHECY - lasted approximately 6,000 years
1. Adam 1. Indian religious figures
2. Noah - Krishna
3. Abraham
4. Moses 2. Zoroaster
5. Jesus 3. Buddha
6. Muhammad
+ Other unknown or unspecified prophets
· B. BAHA'I CYCLE, CYCLE OF FULFILLMENT - to last 500,000 years
1. The Bab
2. Bahá'u'lláh - Universal Manifestation for this Universal Cycle
a. Heroic, Primitive, or Apostolic Age - 1844-1921 (or 1932 - the death of Bahiyyih Khanum)
i. Ministry of the Bab (1844-53)
ii. Ministry of Bahá'u'lláh (1853-92)
iii. Ministry of `Abdu'l-Bahá (1892-1921)
b. Formative, Transitional, or Iron Age - 1921 -
i. First Epoch (1921-44/46) - Erection of the Administrative Order
ii. Second Epoch (1946-63) - spread of the Faith beyond the confines of the Western Hemisphere
iii. Third Epoch (1963-86) - emergence of the Faith from obscurity and initiation of social and economic development plans
iv. Fourth Epoch (1986- ) - national communities taking on the responsibility for their own development
v. Successive further Epochs
c. Golden Age
Successive Epochs leading to the Most Great Peace
3. Further Manifestations - under the shadow of Bahá'u'lláh
· END OF PRESENT UNIVERSAL CYCLE
III. FURTHER UNIVERSAL CYCLES
Ages and Cycles
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I, at times, believed them both, but I see problems with both views now... and I see a ton of contradictions. You say you don't believe the Genesis Creation story, yet another Baha'i is claiming a genealogy that goes back to Adam thru Abraham on up to Baha'u'llah. So does that make Adam the first man? Did he live to be more than 900 years? Did he exist approximately 6000 years ago? Baha'is don't believe any of that. So when did the Bible get accurate on being historical? Or did it ever get accurate? Yet, you use prophesies that pin point exact dates?
My whole point has always been that Christianity and the Baha'i Faith do contradict. And, if the Baha'is are correct, Christianity has never had nor taught the truth. No devil. No hell. No resurrection. And on and on. But, if Christianity is right, the Baha'is are a false religion. They say the Bible is the Word of God and it can be trusted to be the truth. Baha'is say it's the word of God and is allegorical, has some errors (the thing about Isaac and Ishmael) and is not historically true. You down play the gospel writers, and I think you might be right. But, to me, that makes the whole thing a hoax and fabrication. You, somehow, still say it true, just in a symbolic way? Right, like the writers were that witty to conceive of an elaborate symbolic resurrection story. And do such a good job of it that the Christians believed it really did happen? I don't think so. They are either nothing but liars or gullible fools... if the resurrection didn't happen. If the resurrection did happen, then the Baha'is are totally and completely wrong. But both, Christians and Baha'is, say there are no contradictions. And in doing so, they contradict each other.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Then how do we know this is the true genealogy? In fact, how many people believe Adam was really the first human? And then, all those people that lived hundreds of years? And then, Abraham didn't have his son Isaac until he was like a 100 years old or something? So what do Baha'is believe? All this is symbolic or these were real people?I do not know if anyone has kept records of ALL of this but ALL the records certainly are not recorded in the Bible, since it stops with Jesus.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Part of what I've been getting at is... Did Adam even exist? If he did, what in the Bible is true and what is myth? If Baha'is don't believe in the Creation Story, why believe in Adam? Why make him a manifestation? Why give him a "cycle"?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know how we know and I do not think it really matters if we can prove it. Christians challenge Baha's and say that Baha'ullah cannot be who He claimed to be, the Messiah, because He is not descended from David, that is how this all starts. I think it can be proven by a genealogist but that is not my field.
Trying to use the Bible to disprove Baha'u'llah is comical at best. Only about one third of the world population are Christians, what about everyone else? WHY is the Bible used as the standard of Truth for everyone? Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures but He did not mean that every little detail in the Bible is correct, or even that the stories in the Bible actually took place as recorded.
The Bible is the testimony that God exists and God is One. It is the testimony that God sent Moses and Jesus and the other Prophets like Abraham.But now we have the Writings of Baha'u'llah so we do not need the Torah or the Bible as testimony anymore. I am sorry of Jews and Christians do not like it, but the Truth is the Truth.
Time marches on and so does God.... These older religions are holding back the progress in the world by clinging to their beliefs, but there will be an end to it eventually, when the divine standard is finally unfurled...
“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I really do not know anything for sure but Baha'u'llah knew, because Baha'u'llah had the knowledge of God:
“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57
So if Baha'u'llah wrote about Adam and other Prophets in the Bible, then we know they existed.
Once we Baha'is believe in Baha'u'llah we accept everything He wrote... We believe He was as infallible, so it is a package deal.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Rough Beast, of course I understood that KAP and KP were abbreviations of Caesar in Greek. You seem to get strange ideas popping up in your head in order to convince yourself that only you have studied the Jesus story.Why would they use upper case Alpha and Rho in a contraction, instead of the lower case letters as in the actual word?
BTW do you have a source for this? If you came up with it yourself it is quite creative.
The difference in us seems to be that you are Institutionally indoctrinated, and that I have individually investigated.
On occasions you have even reversed points that I have made and then contended against me about such perceptions.
It has become more and more as if you are a myther, Beast, as the possibility of true anecdotes seems to have reduced and the probability/certainty of theological myth, contrivance and psycho-spin has increased in your various claims.
You seem to accept that a Galilean peasant existed, with a name that appeared many hundreds of years after his existence, but you just cannot extend that to a Galilean 2nd order peasant with unusual ability and perception who took interest in, joined, supported and later picked up the Baptist's genuine mission against Temple and priesthood corruption.
You cling to individual groups such as Sadducee and Pharisee rather than the general priesthood, the upper class of all Israel............ Oh.... you're totally cemented into fixed perceptions.......... ??
Indeed! Thank goodness for that!
Can you now see how clever Jesus was when he asked for a coin to be shown and then asked 'Whose features, whose inscription'? He gave the priests present the opportunity to choose to answer 'Caesar' rather than 'Oh, that's Baal, all over our Temple!'. He helped them to save their own lives. :shrug;
By the way, Galileans spoke Eastern Aramaic, which is why their speech was so noticeable to Southern folks.
After all of your long long posts, why don't you just write, in one short paragragh, a synopsis about wehat you really believe about the Jesus story? Let's see you do something really short and sweet?
This is what they mean by "PROGRESSIVE REVELATION"
Progressive revelation (Bahá'í) - Wikipedia
And as they move on to the next revelation they don’t have any choice but to alter or adulterate the word of God so it will fit into their doctrine, i.e., if they are preaching to Christians. They probably do the same to other religions. This is pluralism, a good example of what a hybridized religion looks like. It’s easy to oppress the mind, with malicious rhetoric, than the body because the body always follows the mind.
They become part of this movement/cult because their minds were hacked by this malicious rhetoric and the effect is evident through their interaction with the matured or the facts, i.e., those who were not infected by these malicious codes. They are very happy that someone or something is controlling or manipulating their thinking. It’s like tapping into the human psyche or hacking the human mind. What brand do you want? We have them all in one, one stop shop. Just feed them with rhetoric to energize their thinking, without deducting, and they would follow their leaders no matter what. They don’t have to think, just follow the leaders.
“Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14
Just read this.
"Baha'u'llah was descended from Abraham through both Sarah and Keturah"?
"THROUGH BOTH SARAH AND KETURAH"?
In relation to earth's 4.5 billion years
This is Fake News
If it's not in the Bible then why you insist that it's in the Bible when it's not.Everything is not in the Bible but just because it is not in the Bible does not mean it is not true.
Take a look at this genealogy chart: The Divine Standard Unfurled : Genealogy of Baha'u'llah
I did not want to post it before because it is not from an official Baha’i website, but it is the most detailed genealogy chart I know of. The squabbles between the real Baha’is and the Covenant-breakers do not really matter... They got the genealogy which leads to Baha’u’llah...That is what matters....
In regards the resurrection consider modern biblical scholarship. Use of allegory and symbolism is well established throughout both the NT and OT. I don't believe there's anything Baha'is are saying that bible scholars are not.
Adam is part of the traditions of all the Abrahamic Faiths. It's clear there is much mythology. How much is literally true if any is largely a moot point that is impossible to establish historically.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Everything is a fake to Christians except what they believe.
The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is anything but a fake and there is nothing that Christians can do about it, nothing, except attack it, sometimes openly and sometimes with subterfuge.
“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.
This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.
In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.
In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!
In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.
In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.
Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.
Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.
Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, pp. 103-104
But nothing Christians do will change reality. Logically speaking, if Baha’u’llah is the Spirit of Jesus that has returned there is nothing Christians can do about it, nothing, given the power of the Almighty God always prevails. If they think what Baha’is believe is a lie then they should not be bothered by it at all, because God will not allow a lie to prevail... All they have to do is wait... Christians will be vindicated in the end when Jesus returns.
“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.
In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
There is no other religion like the Baha’i Faith because there is no other Prophet but Baha’u’llah who could ever lay claim to be the return of Christ since there is no other Prophet who fulfilled all the Bible prophecies and wrote 15,000 Tablets, many of which exalt Jesus and God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
We do not adulterate anything. Baha’is have no doctrines. It is the Christians who adulterate the Bible to fit their doctrines. All we do is explain what the Bible means according to our own beliefs. Christians do not OWN the Bible. Funny thing, it is fine when scholars or anyone else explains what the Bible means, but it is not okay for Baha’is to have their own opinions.
This vendetta that Christians have against the Baha’is is all about the fact that we claim that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ and they think we have usurped Jesus from His throne, but we cannot do that unless Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be so what’s the big deal?
Nobody feeds us except the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha. Baha’is have no leaders that tell us what to believe. Christians have leaders and they just follow those leaders, the Church, instead of thinking for themselves. They have just accepted the Church doctrines that were decided upon by councils of mere men, that have been fed to them for almost 2000 years.
https://www.religiousforums.com/bible/matthew/15:14/“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39
Based on the Bible there is NO Baha'u'llah or the the son of Baha'u'llah that came from David but you insisted Baha'u'llah came from David through Sarah and Keturah. Isn't that twisting/adulterating the word of God?