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Psalm 22 is about David, not Jesus?

Ingledsva

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Redemptionsong said:
Rival, Inglesva, answer this question. Who, for you, is the Shepherd of Israel?
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I thought I should add more verses showing YHVH is the Shepherd.

Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. YHVH is my shepherd; I shall not want.

As per your other question - YHVH is the Shepherd of Israel.

Psa 80:1 To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.

Psa 80:2 Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh stir up thy strength, and come and save us.

Psa 80:3 Turn us again, O Elohiym, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.

Psa 80:4 O YHVH Elohiym of hosts, how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people?
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Gen 49:24 But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Eze 34:31 "As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares YHVH.

Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord YHVH will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. Isa 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Gen 48:15 He blessed Joseph, and said, "The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, The God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day,

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of YHVH, O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock."

Eze 34:17 As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord YHVH, 'Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats.

And of course his chosen leaders are called shepherds.

Eze 34:23 Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd.

So, YHVH is THE SHEPHERD, and he has chosen little shepherds.

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74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
Buddha Dharma said:
He is? David needed Nathan as a second opinion then, eh? Jews don't consider David's works prophecy- of that I'm certain. David being a prophet was a exclusively Islamic view, I thought.
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I didn't say "considered by the Jews" ... I'm not sure what they teach on that subject. I mean the Bible itself.

David claimed that God helped him write "by His hand upon me" in 1 Chronicles 28:19 and David even claims God helped him understand the things he was writing. In that case it was specifically the plans for the temple. However, in light of this evidence; David's Psalms should be considered on equal footing with the writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah etc.

In those days in that area of the world; pretty much all kings had prophets or seers. If not, then diviners or magicians etc. Nathan was the official prophet of David's court. David was a king after all and surely had other concerns than prophecy. Just because David's court had a prophet of Yah; does not mean that he was not a prophet himself.
 
74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
Ingledsva said:
A Psalmist wrote it about David, in first-person in some places, for effect. These other verses make that clear.

Psa 18:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said, I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

Psa 7:1 Shiggaion of David, which he sang unto the LORD, concerning the words of Cush the Benjamite. O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
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But, you're not differentiating between when the song begins and the introduction to the song ends. We believe David really made some of the Psalms as he is called the "sweet Psalmist of Israel" in 2 Samuel 32:1. And the Psalms themselves are attributed to David. What happened is David wrote the Psalm and much later perhaps in the days of some later king of Israel the Psalms were compiled into a single scroll or multiple scrolls. So in Psalm 18 for example the actual Psalm would begin with "I will love thee, etc." The part before that is just the introduction or the "address" of the Psalm.

As for the scripture saying "he" sang unto the LORD. I never said David did not literally sing these songs. He sang by the holy Spirit but that doesn't mean the scriptures came from himself. Rather, the Spirit moved upon him and by the anointing.

In 1 Chronicles 28:19 David says that God helped him to understand something by “writing” His “hand upon me”. This means David didn't even necessarily know what the things he was writing meant. God helped him write and explained it to him. In this case it was the plans of the temple. But this evidence shows we should definitely consider the Psalms of David to be on par with the writings of Jeremiah or Isaiah etc.

David in Psalm 110 says in his Psalm "YHVH says to my Adoni ... etc. So, David clearly had prophetic Psalms where God spoke to him about this "Adoni"(clearly Jesus).

The fact these Words of God speak of and unto David in his present circumstances does not mean that God is not hiding within various Psalms Messianic prophecy. Which is the point I made from the beginning. It was necessary for God to hide these things; so that His will would be done. So that satan would not know the plans God had against him. Jesus said think not that I come to bring peace, but a sword. Jesus coming into the world was a declaration of war on satan's kingdom of darkness.
Ingledsva said:
You are proving nothing here.



It doesn't matter if he had the plans. As the verse, and other verses say, his SON SOLOMON built the Temple. It is about David and Solomon - not Jesus.
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I'm not arguing that here ... You may have missed my point. It's simply that David claims to have received messages from the holy Spirit of Yah. So that's all I've said in this thread.
Ingledsva said:
You need to stop taking these verses out of context.
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Not my intention ...
Ingledsva said:
1Ch 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:

1Ch 28:3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.

1Ch 28:4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:

1Ch 28:5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

1Ch 28:6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

Here we have AGAIN - in 28:6 - the words you folks claim means it is Jesus, which this shows beyond any doubt - they are NOT. They are about Solomon.
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I want to stay on track here. My only point in this thread so far is that David receives messages through the Spirit of Yah. This means the Psalms should be considered as the gift of prophecy rather than as if they are created from David's own imagination. We see this is Psalm 110:1 when David mentions another Person "Adoni" who Yah is talking too. And we see this in 1 Chronicles 28:11-12 when it says David received the pattern of the temple from the holy Spirit. And again in 1 Chronicles 28:19 when David claims God made him understand something through writing “His hand upon me”.
 
74x12

74x12

Well-Known Member
Buddha Dharma said:
Can you show it's clearly not about David, when it so perfectly ties in with the Absalom episode I mentioned?
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I missed this question before. Sorry. I'm here to point out what everyone else has apparently missed. The prophecies of Jesus are hidden or veiled in the scriptures for a good reason. If the satan found out what God's plan was then he would not have crucified the Son of God.

So, basically I understand some of the symbolism in Psalm 22 and it is about the crucifixion. But, I don't expect those who don't believe to see it as I do. Hind sight is 20/20 but not for those who don't believe in the first place.

You seem to be making this Psalm about the time when Shimei cursed David and pelted him with stones. That's very questionable because we know David wrote Psalms 3 while he was running from Absalom and this Psalm fits much better than Psalm 22 does.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your replies.

Ingledsva said:
Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. YHVH is my shepherd; I shall not want.
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Rival said:
HaShem.
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You both agree that the Shepherd of Israel is GOD.

I assume, also, that you believe all the scriptures of the Tanakh. So tell me the meaning of this passage:
Ezekiel 37:24, 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd:'
Who do you think this one shepherd is?
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Redemptionsong said:
Thank you for your replies.





You both agree that the Shepherd of Israel is GOD.

I assume, also, that you believe all the scriptures of the Tanakh. So tell me the meaning of this passage:
Ezekiel 37:24, 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall have one shepherd:'
Who do you think this one shepherd is?
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It means that the king of the returned tribes shall be from the Davidic line, under whom they shall all be reunited.
 
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Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Redemptionsong said:
Let's just see what Inglesva has to say.
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I just hope you know that no-one is arguing with you that the Moshiach will be a descendant of David. No-one is arguing with you against Moshiach being a King, but I am debating you over your Jesus belief. I'm arguing that Jesus is not Moshiach, never sat on a throne and did not reunite the tribes that the very verse you pointed to speaks about. The truth is, you can't even prove that Jesus was of David's line and in Christian theology he isn't, because he has no father, therefore he cannot be Moshiach as he is not from David's line. The Christian writings also contradict themselves in their genealogies and, even if they didn't, saying that Miriam never had sex is tantamount to saying that Joseph is not Jesus' father, so we don't know who his father is, and thus he cannot be Moshiach.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Rival said:
Verse 13 is hardly ambiguous. G-d is speaking and says 'He will build a house for My Name'. I'm not quite sure why you think this is somehow ambiguous. G-d is speaking to David through the prophet about what will happen after David's death. G-d told David that David shall not be the one to build the house, but Solomon will. The passage is very clear. Verse 14 seals the deal as HaShem then goes on to say that he will commit iniquity, unless you believe that Jesus commited iniquity this verse doesn't work for your Jesus interpretation.
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Interpretation in fun when things aren't specific. The sin could easily have been Jesus taking the sin of the world on Himself.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Rival, we are in agreement over the Ezekiel passage referring to the Messiah and to his descent from David. Are we also in agreement that the Messiah is our Lord?
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
In which case l must ask you (and lnglesva) to explain Ezekiel 34:23, 24.

Don't forget, you have already told me that the one shepherd of Israel is God.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Redemptionsong said:
In which case l must ask you (and lnglesva) to explain Ezekiel 34:23, 24.

Don't forget, you have already told me that the one shepherd of Israel is God.
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Are you unaware of nuances of meaning? This means that the descendant of David is going to shepherd them as David did, i.e, as a king.

2 Samuel 5:1-2:
Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron, and said, ‘Look, we are your bone and flesh. For some time, while Saul was king over us, it was you who led out Israel and brought it in. The Lord said to you: It is you who shall be shepherd of my people Israel, you who shall be ruler over Israel.’

Was David also G-d? Heaven forbid.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
There is a clear difference between the 'shepherds' of Israel, and the 'one shepherd'. Who, apart from the Lord, is described by the term 'one shepherd'?
 
U

user4578

Member
Rival said:
we don't know who his father is, and thus he cannot be Moshiach.
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Rival said:
No. The Moshiach is a man.
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Yet if the Messiah was supposed to be just a man, then why did David, his ancestor, call him 'Lord'(the converse of what Jesus states in Matthew 22:45, from Psalms 110:1)? David therefore was saying something more about the Messiah than what you have stated here.
 
Rival

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
user4578 said:
Yet if the Messiah was supposed to be just a man, then why did David, his ancestor, call him 'Lord'(the converse of what Jesus states in Matthew 22:45, from Psalms 110:1)? David therefore was saying something more about the Messiah than what you have stated here.
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Because that psalm isn't talking about the messiah. There are different takes on the psalmist's meaning within Jewish understanding. The first use of 'lord' here is translated from the tetragrammaton, YHWH, obviously referring to G-d. The second word translated 'to my lord' is 'ladonee', which is never used to refer to G-d and always refers to a human master. For G-d it would be 'adonai'. 'Ladonee' is also used to refer to such characters as Abraham and Esau.
 
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