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A Hellish Dilemma!

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Let us suppose, for the sake of discussion, that you have a friend. Moreover, this is the best friend you've ever had or could hope to have! A friend you would even die for if dying for them were necessary.

Now further suppose that your friend is one of those insufferable people who -- try as he or she might -- cannot yet believe that there is conclusive evidence for the existence of a deity or deities.

That's to say they are willing to examine in good faith any new reasons or evidence that you or anyone else present them with for the existence of a deity or deities, but they always come up short of being convinced by such reasons and evidence that a deity or deities exist.

Last, let's suppose that you believe your friend will suffer eternal torment if they cannot bring themselves to honestly believe in the existence of a deity or deities. And by eternal torment, I mean something horrific, something worse even than being forced to listen for all of eternity to the lame jokes of that buffoon, Sunstone. Indeed, much much worse than that! Seriously worse!

If such were the case, and you honestly believed they were at risk of eternal torture, would you yourself pray to your god or gods to suffer with them for all of eternity? Would you choose, if you could, to be tormented as they would be tormented? Or would you part ways, yourself going to heaven, and they to hell? Why or why not?


I ask the question in part because I have known in my life of at least two people who rejected salvation on those very grounds -- that a friend or friends of theirs would suffer even if they themselves were saved.

By the way,. I ask that you answer the question as if there were no way to weasel out of the dilemma. I am not the least interested in what a good lawyer you would make. I am interested solely in whether you'd be willing to spend eternity in hell for the sake of the best friend or friends you'll ever have.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Let us suppose, for the sake of discussion, that you have a friend. Moreover, this is the best friend you've ever had or could hope to have! A friend you would even die for if dying for them were necessary.

Now further suppose that your friend is one of those insufferable people who -- try as he or she might -- cannot yet believe that there is conclusive evidence for the existence of a deity or deities.

That's to say they are willing to examine in good faith any new reasons or evidence that you or anyone else present them with for the existence of a deity or deities, but they always come up short of being convinced by such reasons and evidence that a deity or deities exist.

Last, let's suppose that you believe your friend will suffer eternal torment if they cannot bring themselves to honestly believe in the existence of a deity or deities. And by eternal torment, I mean something horrific, something worse even than being forced to listen for all of eternity to the lame jokes of that buffoon, Sunstone. Indeed, much much worse than that! Seriously worse!

If such were the case, and you honestly believed they were at risk of eternal torture, would you yourself pray to your god or gods to suffer with them for all of eternity? Would you choose, if you could, to be tormented as they would be tormented? Or would you part ways, yourself going to heaven, and they to hell? Why or why not?


I ask the question in part because I have known in my life of at least two people who rejected salvation on those very grounds -- that a friend or friends of theirs would suffer even if they themselves were saved.

By the way,. I ask that you answer the question as if there were no way to weasel out of the dilemma. I am not the least interested in what a good lawyer you would make. I am interested solely in whether you'd be willing to spend eternity in hell for the sake of the best friend or friends you'll ever have.

First of all there is no suffering all eternity. If my friend doesn't get into heaven, then her soul is retroactively by God. Basically she never existed, so I will not remember this friend. This is what it means to burn in the lake of fire, be sent to hell, or consumed by God's fiery presence. There is no hell with devils and pitchforks. So no, I would not pray to join her. Best I could do for her is to pray she sees the light and turns to God.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Hell being a place for those who are only cruel, and murderous?

Or the Hell where good people go to for non belief?

I'd suffer the second Hell because it ain't right, and i would need to rectify it
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't believe in hell as a place of eternal suffering. That word appears in some bible translations replacing the the Hebrew words sheol or hades, or replacing the Greek word gehenna. The first two refer to the grave and the third is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom in ancient Jerusalem. It was a place where dead bodies would be strewn.
I'm not worried about me or anyone I love going to hell, but hypothetically speaking, as much as I care about other people, they make their own choices. If they decide to do something with horrible consequences for themselves and I can't make them change their mind, I'm not going to follow them and put myself in the same danger.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Let us suppose, for the sake of discussion, that you have a friend. Moreover, this is the best friend you've ever had or could hope to have! A friend you would even die for if dying for them were necessary.

Now further suppose that your friend is one of those insufferable people who -- try as he or she might -- cannot yet believe that there is conclusive evidence for the existence of a deity or deities.

That's to say they are willing to examine in good faith any new reasons or evidence that you or anyone else present them with for the existence of a deity or deities, but they always come up short of being convinced by such reasons and evidence that a deity or deities exist.

Last, let's suppose that you believe your friend will suffer eternal torment if they cannot bring themselves to honestly believe in the existence of a deity or deities. And by eternal torment, I mean something horrific, something worse even than being forced to listen for all of eternity to the lame jokes of that buffoon, Sunstone. Indeed, much much worse than that! Seriously worse!

If such were the case, and you honestly believed they were at risk of eternal torture, would you yourself pray to your god or gods to suffer with them for all of eternity? Would you choose, if you could, to be tormented as they would be tormented? Or would you part ways, yourself going to heaven, and they to hell? Why or why not?


I ask the question in part because I have known in my life of at least two people who rejected salvation on those very grounds -- that a friend or friends of theirs would suffer even if they themselves were saved.

By the way,. I ask that you answer the question as if there were no way to weasel out of the dilemma. I am not the least interested in what a good lawyer you would make. I am interested solely in whether you'd be willing to spend eternity in hell for the sake of the best friend or friends you'll ever have.
Not a chance. They stewed the chicken. Let them eat it.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Would you choose, if you could, to be tormented as they would be tormented? Or would you part ways, yourself going to heaven, and they to hell? Why or why not?
Hell is a choice, it is for those who don't recognize what their inner self has become...

Thus being ignorant with a suffering friend is illogical; it is better to be wise, and get them out of the Snare they've caught themselves in.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I am minded of the Robin Williams movie What Dreams Shall Come, and at the same time, of the quote attributed to Cicero:

quote-if-a-man-could-mount-to-heaven-and-survey-the-mighty-universe-his-admiration-of-its-marcus-tullius-cicero-75-69-80.jpg


Certainly, a beloved friend or family member would be THE ONE you would want to share in your pleasure, and their absence, no matter how many others whom you love and respect would be there to share, their absence would be still hard to accept.

Taking their place doesn't seem to solve the quandary: THEY will miss you being with them in Heaven, and you, in Hell, will miss them as well.

However, the choice becomes easier in my mind as the number of persons "saved" increases: saving more people that I know...and very shortly, those I do not know...makes it easier to exchange myself and my salvation for the sake of others.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
First of all there is no suffering all eternity. If my friend doesn't get into heaven, then her soul is retroactively by God. Basically she never existed, so I will not remember this friend. This is what it means to burn in the lake of fire, be sent to hell, or consumed by God's fiery presence. There is no hell with devils and pitchforks. So no, I would not pray to join her. Best I could do for her is to pray she sees the light and turns to God.
Interesting.
How do you know this?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Interesting.
How do you know this?

Because devils with pitchforks poking people eternally is not in the Bible.


Accidently hit post before I was finished.*

Hebrews 12:29

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Exodus 3: 2-4

2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Revelations 21:8

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelations 3:5

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The first 3 verses plus a few others scattered about, relate God to being a fiery presence or fire itself. In Revelation 21:8 getting tossed into the lake of fire is the second death, the second death is the death of your soul. In Revelation 3:5 those that accept Jesus will not have their names blotted out from the book of life (salvation living eternally with God). Having your name blotted out from the book of life is taking you out of the equation. You not only die, but are unmade and you never existed. So nobody will remember you, not your Mom, not your children, not your friends, you never existed. That is hell.
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If such were the case, and you honestly believed they were at risk of eternal torture, would you yourself pray to your god or gods to suffer with them for all of eternity?
First, anyone who would be willing to go to what he or she believes to be hell for another's sake has my admiration for the spirit of self-sacrifice.

I'm not the Avatar who takes on unimaginable suffering for the sake of aiding the universe's path to the Divine.
 
Let us suppose, for the sake of discussion, that you have a friend. Moreover, this is the best friend you've ever had or could hope to have! A friend you would even die for if dying for them were necessary.

Now further suppose that your friend is one of those insufferable people who -- try as he or she might -- cannot yet believe that there is conclusive evidence for the existence of a deity or deities.

That's to say they are willing to examine in good faith any new reasons or evidence that you or anyone else present them with for the existence of a deity or deities, but they always come up short of being convinced by such reasons and evidence that a deity or deities exist.

Last, let's suppose that you believe your friend will suffer eternal torment if they cannot bring themselves to honestly believe in the existence of a deity or deities. And by eternal torment, I mean something horrific, something worse even than being forced to listen for all of eternity to the lame jokes of that buffoon, Sunstone. Indeed, much much worse than that! Seriously worse!

If such were the case, and you honestly believed they were at risk of eternal torture, would you yourself pray to your god or gods to suffer with them for all of eternity? Would you choose, if you could, to be tormented as they would be tormented? Or would you part ways, yourself going to heaven, and they to hell? Why or why not?


I ask the question in part because I have known in my life of at least two people who rejected salvation on those very grounds -- that a friend or friends of theirs would suffer even if they themselves were saved.

By the way,. I ask that you answer the question as if there were no way to weasel out of the dilemma. I am not the least interested in what a good lawyer you would make. I am interested solely in whether you'd be willing to spend eternity in hell for the sake of the best friend or friends you'll ever have.

I am constantly fighting my own salvation. I doubt I would have time to persuade my friend about his whole soul. Though I've always despised Evangelical work so I would probably keep my mouth shut ether way.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If people went to hell or are punished in any way just over a difference of belief, I wouldn't want to worship such a cruel deity in the first place. I would gladly go to hell.
Do you know, the Bible indicates everyone goes to hell?

Ecclesiastes 9:10, the Douay-Rheims Bible:
"Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening."

Another rendering, from the King James 2000 Bible:
"Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go."

(
This was not addressed to a specific person, it is to everyone reading it.)

Just thought you might find it interesting.

Take care.
 
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