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Seiðr and Ergi

Aldrnari

Active Member
What is your personal view on the ancient Nordic concept of ergi (unmanliness)? Is it a 1000 year old concept that has little use in the world today, or is it something every man should avoid?

Likewise, what about seiðr? Ancient norse people thought it was argr, but times have changed. Is it, in your eyes, still? Why, or why not? Also, what do you think about the practice of seiðr in modern times?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I think ideas such as ergi are relative to time and place but do not travel well.
I actually disagree. The modern views of neo-Liberalism and über Political Correctness is something that I personal think is fading pretty quickly, having lasted barely more than half a century. Even during this time, there are still things that are frowned upon as "unmanly" or "not lady-like", despite The Left brow-beating such views down. Or trying to, rather.

So far as Seiðr goes, I think women are more prone and skilled at it than men are. Men able to practice this art would be more in touch with their feminine side, which would technically be ergi. "Brosatru" might look down on that as a bad thing, but in today's world (modernly speaking, not PC-speaking) not being peak-condition manly warriors isn't a death sentence. Which, back in the Viking Age, if one was ergi they were probably a burden to their fellow warrior, and best left at home with the thræll and commonfolk. Which, in that world, would have been shameful for someone that should be out pulling their weight.
 

Hildeburh

Active Member
What is your personal view on the ancient Nordic concept of ergi (unmanliness)? Is it a 1000 year old concept that has little use in the world today, or is it something every man should avoid?

Likewise, what about seiðr? Ancient norse people thought it was argr, but times have changed. Is it, in your eyes, still? Why, or why not? Also, what do you think about the practice of seiðr in modern times?

Norse society had strict moral codes and gender norms, very different to those of modern society. Ergi/regi variously meant craven, unmanly and/or sexually perverted (passively homosexual). False accusations of ergi could be punishable outlawry or vengeance by combat. I don't think Old Norse moral attitudes, or their punishments, are overly applicable to modern society.

So little known about the Norse practice of seiðr; Neil Price suggests that the practice had a sexual component which is why it was considered argr/ragr for a man to practice seiðr. It has also been suggested that seiðr was connected to spinning which was a female activity. We will never know the details of what constituted seiðr, the practice is lost in time.
 

Holdasown

Active Member
I always assumes egri meant homosexual or even transsexual. Since Odin learned seidr from Freya seems to back up the feminine aspect of the practice. I am not sure if the same standards apply today or not. This isn't Viking society. I suppose it depends on how much of a re-constructionist you are.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
**MOD POST**

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Hildeburh

Active Member
I always assumes egri meant homosexual or even transsexual. Since Odin learned seidr from Freya seems to back up the feminine aspect of the practice. I am not sure if the same standards apply today or not. This isn't Viking society. I suppose it depends on how much of a re-constructionist you are.

Ergi had several meanings all relating to gender constructs: manliness, cowardess, passive homosexuality etc. The homosexuality aspect specifically relates to a man taking the woman's role in sex. I doubt there was a word for transsexual but there were laws in the Grágás against women wearing men's clothing, men wearing women's clothes and women cutting their hair short as these things transgressed gender norms.

No one knows for certain why seiðr was considered a female activity, there are only theories. Given the limited discussion of seiðr in the sources the seiðr that is practiced today cannot be considered a reconstruction of that which was practiced in the past.
 

DanishCrow

Seeking Feeds
I have no strong opinion on the traditional meanings of the term ergi, though as a queer cismale and magic practicioner, I understand that my practice of seidr and shamanism will carry a certain stigma, even among non-nazitru traditional pagans. Let it! They will come to me when worried about their future or the health of their children, and I will show them they can trust me.
 

Hildeburh

Active Member
I have no strong opinion on the traditional meanings of the term ergi, though as a queer cismale and magic practicioner, I understand that my practice of seidr and shamanism will carry a certain stigma, even among non-nazitru traditional pagans. Let it! They will come to me when worried about their future or the health of their children, and I will show them they can trust me.

I am a non nazitru traditional pagan and I have no strong feelings about modern practitioners of seidr. I would come to see you if it were necessary and possible; Denmark being a little far from Australia :)
 

DanishCrow

Seeking Feeds
Glad to hear it! I don't think it's that pronounced anymore either, but I do come across the occasional pagan who thinks that only a gothi should approach the gods and that the only way to talk through them is through prayer, looking askance at practicioners of augury, shamanism and god-talking.
 

Hildeburh

Active Member
Glad to hear it! I don't think it's that pronounced anymore either, but I do come across the occasional pagan who thinks that only a gothi should approach the gods and that the only way to talk through them is through prayer, looking askance at practicioners of augury, shamanism and god-talking.

There's plenty of evidence in the historical literature regarding augury and reading of omens, frankly it would surprise me if Heathens didn't employ it in some form or other. Like all skills some do it better than others, some are more tuned to wyrd.

Sacrifice was they primary agency to communicate/ placate/ honour the gods/ancestors/wights not prayer.; a gift for a gift. Approaching a priest to pray for me sounds suspiciously like Christianity to me.
 

DanishCrow

Seeking Feeds
It's usually an ego thing. A lot Danish gothi are anti-modernist and think that reading the sagas and hávamál is the only thing that can possibly make you understand the Gods, and able to talk to them.

When some of us tell them we can travel to the realm of the divine and read augury, they get pissed because they think we're "better at the Gods" than them. It's sad, but humans will be humans I guess.

E: and by "prayer", I meant leading the blót for the congregation. A lot of us talk to the gods in daily formula, but it's not prayer as such. Pardon any confusion, English is not my first language :)
 
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Hildeburh

Active Member
It's usually an ego thing. A lot Danish gothi are anti-modernist and think that reading the sagas and hávamál is the only thing that can possibly make you understand the Gods, and able to talk to them.

When some of us tell them we can travel to the realm of the divine and read augury, they get pissed because they think we're "better at the Gods" than them. It's sad, but humans will be humans I guess.

E: and by "prayer", I meant leading the blót for the congregation. A lot of us talk to the gods in daily formula, but it's not prayer as such. Pardon any confusion, English is not my first language :)

Your English is great, I'm trying to learn Danish at the moment and trust me it nowhere near as good as your English.

To me, it seems like an entirely monotheist model to have one priest (gothi) leading a community of believers, and purporting to know all the gods. Home or ancestor and wight rituals cannot be lead by a gothi who is not part of your community, family or locality. In elder times the king/ tribal leaders lead in the public cults of the gods, these rites were very much connected to the fertlity of the land but local and ancestor cults were the domain of the household.

Whilst there is little surviving in the literature regarding Seidr workers it is documented that they were important resource for communities, even if they were not wholly accepted due to the nature of their work. Seems like your gothis are selectively reading the sources.
 

DanishCrow

Seeking Feeds
Sure, but then I wouldn't **** on a lot of Danish "asatro" to put out a fire. They seem to uncritically copy a lot of their practice and theology wholesale from their favorite group, which unfortunately often is the Asatruar Folk Assembly.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
Ergi had several meanings all relating to gender constructs: manliness, cowardess, passive homosexuality etc. The homosexuality aspect specifically relates to a man taking the woman's role in sex. I doubt there was a word for transsexual but there were laws in the Grágás against women wearing men's clothing, men wearing women's clothes and women cutting their hair short as these things transgressed gender norms.

No one knows for certain why seiðr was considered a female activity, there are only theories. Given the limited discussion of seiðr in the sources the seiðr that is practiced today cannot be considered a reconstruction of that which was practiced in the past.

Thanks Hildeburh, I find your posts always right on the mark, and very informative. Great to have someone who is so well versed in Pagan traditions.

I think it is not difficult to understand why seiðr was considered to be something for evil women and unmanly men. Neopagans nowadays associate Pagan religious practices with Magic. This is a misunderstanding and in fact an attack on the traditions of our ancestors. Magic is and has always been seen as something negative in mainstream traditional culture, especially Indo-Aryan culture. The ancient Greeks punished it severely and in Hinduism today people accused of witchcraft are still persecuted.

Our ancestors were very proud people and good warriors. It they had not been, we would not be here today. It is that simple. People live by codes, otherwise there is no civilization. Strict codes are found in all traditional societies. They live by mores that have grown over generations and are the wisdom of generations. And they are handed down to new generations. That is what tradition is. Tradition literally means "handed down". That is what the essence of Paganism is: Living by the traditions of one's ancestors. Which is the opposite of creating one's own individual morals.

Why would our ancestors reject magic? Well simply look what magic is. Magic is an underhanded way to achieve objectives ignoring the mores of a people. One must also understand that something like poisoning was very much part of Magic. Poisoning is typically the weapon of choice of women. But also used by weak (unmanly) men to get rid of competitors. If a weak jealous person can not beat a competitor in armed contest he will resort to coward means.

Often we read in stories that evil people go to a witch who lives on the outskirts(!) and ask her to create a potion or drink to eliminate someone they hate. Or people who can not win the heart of someone and are rejected ask for a love potion. Things like that. It is weak evil people that resort to underhanded ways to achieve their goals. Ways that violate accepted tradition, and provoke strong condemnation.

Witch hunts are often created when someone suddenly dies or falls ill and it is suspected that foul means have been used. These evil means can be the use of spells, evil spirits or the use of potions, drinks, what we today would call poisonous substances. Our ideas about that are still the same. The game has to be played by the rules we establish as a society.
 
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Hildeburh

Active Member
Sure, but then I wouldn't **** on a lot of Danish "asatro" to put out a fire. They seem to uncritically copy a lot of their practice and theology wholesale from their favorite group, which unfortunately often is the Asatruar Folk Assembly.

Yes, I could not have put it better myself.
 

Hildeburh

Active Member
Thanks Hildeburh, I find your posts always right on the mark, and very informative. Great to have someone who is so well versed in Pagan traditions.

Thanks :)

I think it is not difficult to understand why seiðr was considered to be something for evil women and unmanly men. Neopagans nowadays associate Pagan religious practices with Magic. This is a misunderstanding and in fact an attack on the traditions of our ancestors. Magic is and has always been seen as something negative in mainstream traditional culture, especially Indo-Aryan culture. The ancient Greeks punished it severely and in Hinduism today people accused of witchcraft are still persecuted.

It is clear from the sources that some forms of magic were indigenous to Germanic societies; augury/prognostication, spells and charms in particular. Augury/prognostication took the form of reading omens in nature, such as, by observing the behaviour of birds and horses and also by reading lots and prognostication by a seerers. Augury/prognostication is clearly indicated in pre and post Christian texts and it is obvious from law codes that this behaviour continued after Christianisation.

The seeress/prophetess in Germanic societies were respected and played an important role in decision making. Germanic prophetesses are recorded as early as 50 BCE by Julius Caesar in Commentāriī dē Bellō Gallicō and the importance of prophetess Veleda to the Bructeri was recorded by Tacitus.

Seidr was a specific form of prognostication/clairvoyance undertaken by individuals, mostly women but also by some men, the practice in some way, which we do not fully understand, made these individuals both feared and respected. Nevertheless, seidr workers were welcomed and paid by communities for their services, as stated in the Saga of Eric the Red; the volva was summoned, the household was thoroughly cleansed and the seiðkona was given the high seat and hailed reverently.

The importance of the seereress continues in Icelandic tradition where Freya was said to have practiced seidr and taught the skill to Odin; and Frig is also said to know the fates of all men. The seeress is also central to the Eddic poem Voluspa, where Odin awakens a volva to give him advice.


Our ancestors were very proud people and good warriors. It they had not been, we would not be here today. It is that simple. People live by codes, otherwise there is no civilization. Strict codes are found in all traditional societies. They live by mores that have grown over generations and are the wisdom of generations. And they are handed down to new generations. That is what tradition is. Tradition literally means "handed down". That is what the essence of Paganism is: Living by the traditions of one's ancestors. Which is the opposite of creating one's own individual morals.

It is not fully understood male seidr workers were ostracised, Neil Price suggests that there was a sexual element to the performance of seidr; others suggest it was intricately bound to spinning, which was womans work. Nevertheless, it is clear from Icelandic sources that seidr workers were employed in times of hardship and that this form of magic was indigenous, therefore traditional.

Why would our ancestors reject magic? Well simply look what magic is. Magic is an underhanded way to achieve objectives ignoring the mores of a people. One must also understand that something like poisoning was very much part of Magic. Poisoning is typically the weapon of choice of women. But also used by weak (unmanly) men to get rid of competitors. If a weak jealous person can not beat a competitor in armed contest he will resort to coward means.

Our ancestors didn't reject magic, it was deeply woven within pagan societies; augury, prognostication, amulets and talisman existed throughout the ancient world. There are many examples outside the Germanic sphere of gods/esses associated with magic and of oracles, spells and charms; these things were an integral part of day to day life. People/deities who had this knowledge were feared and respected and of course it could be used either to help or hurt. Even in post Christian societies wisemen/women were consulted for a wide range of services we would now consider magic or superstition.

Poisoning is not a particularly good example of magic. All one needs to poison someone is an understanding of the properties of herbs and other substances that occur in nature.

Often we read in stories that evil people go to a witch who lives on the outskirts(!) and ask her to create a potion or drink to eliminate someone they hate. Or people who can not win the heart of someone and are rejected ask for a love potion. Things like that. It is weak evil people that resort to underhanded ways to achieve their goals. Ways that violate accepted tradition, and provoke strong condemnation.

Whose accepted tradition? In some religions, ancient and modern, it is quite acceptable to curse and/or employ love potions. There are examples of curses and love spells written in runes, some quite funny ones too.

Witch hunts are often created when someone suddenly dies or falls ill and it is suspected that foul means have been used. These evil means can be the use of spells, evil spirits or the use of potions, drinks, what we today would call poisonous substances. Our ideas about that are still the same. The game has to be played by the rules we establish as a society.

Witches and evil spirits? You've lost me, I associate these things with Christianity, do you have specific examples in mind?
 
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