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Religious Brains vs Atheist Brains

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
I can't be the liar because of the meditation, prayer, chanting leading to brain activity according to the article.

The article doesn't say that. You're wishing it would, and i guess you're expecting us to not read the article. Because i'm quite sure you read it and are understanding that you're pulling this conclusion out of your backside. It's comments like this that lead me to believe, with enough certainty, that you are being deceptive on purpose. This sure can't be an accident.

I left out incense and that's part of it, too.

Guess that means all those hippies must be really smart for all the incense they keep burning. (sarcasm)

None of it was achieved through atheism.

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods at its most simplistic meaning. Buddhism doesn't encourage belief in gods. For that matter, it also doesn't encourage lack of belief in gods, but at its simplest meaning, atheism is merely the lack of belief in god. And it does lack that.

None of the Buddhism's teachings have anything to do with belief in deities?

The only such teachings that i can remember off the top of my head are actually about such belief being a hindrance if one's goal is to remove attachments.

Just exactly what do you think they are meditating on?

What do you mean, "they?" Are you trying to imply that you, as an outsider, know more about my religion than myself? What gives you that picture?

As for the "what i think they are meditating on", it can be anything. Even gods, but for you to give out the idea that they're just an example to justify YOUR faith, then you are seriously mistaken here. Most likely, Buddhists would mediate as part of the path towards Nirvana. But it can be something as small as gaining concentration and insight into an issue.

Buddhist meditation - Wikipedia

Part of it is reverence and thankfulness to the deities. It just goes to show atheists are wrong again. Atheists love wikipedia, so for once I'll use it to nail them.

"Buddhism includes a wide array of divine beings that are venerated in various ritual and popular contexts. Initially they included mainly Indian deities such as devas and yakshas, but later came to include other Asian spirits and local gods. They range from enlightened Buddhas to regional spirits adopted by Buddhists or practiced on the margins of the religion."

Buddhist deities - Wikipedia

You probably should have used conservapedia. And you should probably read your link further. Because none of the text you quote mined there actually supports what you're saying: That "Part of it is reverence and thankfulness to the deities." While many Buddhists would venerate such spirits and deities, what purpose would meditating on them serve?

"Devas are divine beings, though they are not all necessarily wise or on the Buddhist path and hence not final objects of refuge. They have very long lives which have much less suffering than humans, but are not immortal or immune from suffering. " From your link.

Oh and:

Deva (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

Devas and Yakshas are both considered lesser beings compared to Buddhas. They are of Samsara. Like ALL other "gods" in Buddhism. This is both much more complex than you seem to understand, and not as important as you seem to imply: The deities are not the point of Buddhism. At best they are used as examples, or metaphors. At worst, some of the mentions are merely criticisms of Hinduism.

Thus, it just goes to show it's a western atheist myth about Buddhism.

You believe you have shown this. You are welcome to continue believing that.

The Buddah believed in gods, but did not teach about gods.

So this is a bit like your logic in your previous threads such as a scientist believing in god = "creation scientist." If he did not teach about gods, then what part do gods serve in Buddhism? APART from a single Buddhist's personal beliefs, which you are merely assuming here.

Yet, part of Buddhist meditation is to honor and worship their gods.

Can you demonstrate which part?

Other meditations have to do with the self.

I think you need to read more about the things you are making claims of before making such claims. This just makes you come off as judgmental without having the means to even understand what you're arguing.

All I can think of is atheists got their idea of Buddhism as atheistic because Buddhists do not believe in creation, judgment from their gods or an afterlife of heaven and hell like Christians.

And you don't think that's rational? I mean, if a religion has nothing to do with gods or deities, then...? You still think it's theistic?

Heaven and hell I think is part of the earthly existence or birth and re-birth.

The Six Realms of Desire in the Buddhist Wheel of Life

First paragraph of your article: "The Six Realms are a description of conditioned existence, or samsara, into which beings are reborn. Although sometimes they are described as "real" places, more often these days they are appreciated as allegories."

And here's a Zen Buddhist's interpretation:

"In Buddhism, both naraka (infernal states) and deva state (angelic states) have not the same sense as in other religions. In Vedic religions which preceded Buddhism, for example, these states had the same meaning as in Catholicism. Still retains this meaning to some unenlightened Buddhists and can be seen even today buddhic images that resemble the gruesome descriptions of hell and paradise. But a true understanding of Buddhism gives to these states a mood status. Especially in Zen, these states [along with the other four realms and the states of Śrāvaka, Pratyekabuddha, Bodhisattva and Buddha - the ten spiritual realms] are explained as different stages that are unfolded during the practice of zazen."

-Taisen Deshimaru

From:

Desire realm - Wikipedia

The IMPORTANT point here is that these realms are part of Samsara.

Furthermore, the Tibetan monk, Dalai Lama, said so, "God exists or God does not exist. Leave it for us. Your task is to learn how to live peacefully." He didn't say God does not exist as atheists want to believe.

AWAKENING FROM THE DREAM: Dalai Lama Speaks - What About God?

That's a blog site. In fact, it's a common story that goes around the internet with slight variation. And in fact, that blog is the original source. And there are no references whatsoever. But even so:

"The Dalai Lama was telling everyone there that belief in God or religion doesn't ground one in the direct experience of the truth. To experience that truth, one must have a clear, calm, and tranquil mind, and this mind must be turned inward. Sadhana is the practice of turning inward. "Upon protection of the mind, the whole world is protected, and upon its destruction, the whole world is destroyed", say the scriptures. Cultivating a virtuous mind, then, is our dharma."

He was simply affirming that people can believe in gods. Nothing more.

Of course, the Dalai Lama believes in the afterlife and judgment in the form of karma.

Karma is not judgement.

Yet, this karma does not involve a judge, but cause and effect or actions and consequences.

More from the Dalai Lama on the afterlife, science, China and Tibet's future

So there is no judge, quite literally? Are you saying that the natural laws are judging us? If not, then why would you say that cause and effect are judging us? They aren't. You might not get rewarded for a good deed. In fact, you might even cause suffering by it. THAT is the nature of karma. It takes no sides in this regard.

A person with a well developed "sense of karma" can work to predict events based on careful consideration of all events and phenomena. Even then, he or she might not be entirely successful.

Far be it for me to explain dissatisfaction and pain from a Christian view to an atheist. It's one of the observations made of atheists by Christians.

Thus, I present it as one of truths taught by Buddhism as dukkha. In it, one of the noble truths is samsara or suffering.

What Buddhists Really Mean by 'Life Is Suffering'

So, you are proposing belief in god to be the answer to dukkha, or suffering? Talk about using another religion to try and justify your own. Your misappropriation here has to be one of the least respectful i've seen in a LONG time.

You are trying to use the view of another religion to justify YOUR view. This lessens both your view and the view you are appropriating.
 
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Derek500

Wish I could change this to AUD
medit2_custom-262615aa650a5c9f3c050ecccb7f9dbe3fb2337c-s800-c85.jpeg


I'm not a believer in neurotheology, but I would think that there is more activity and awareness in the religious brain, especially the frontal lobes, versus that of an atheist brain. This isn't to say that atheists are dull thinkers, but that they do not experience the full sense of consciousness or awareness of that of a religious person. The atheists are in a state of continual dissatisfaction and pain. Through prayer, chanting and meditation, the religious are able to tap into their neurological selves better in order to better achieve a closer to Nirvana or enlightenment state. In this sense, I am for the better enlightenment of all here.

Neurotheology: This Is Your Brain On Religion
I'm happy that james bond acknowledges that having faith or not having fa
ith is not a choice. It's going to really mess up the normal dogma of lots of Christian Churches.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
The article doesn't say that. You're wishing it would, and i guess you're expecting us to not read the article. Because i'm quite sure you read it and are understanding that you're pulling this conclusion out of your backside. It's comments like this that lead me to believe, with enough certainty, that you are being deceptive on purpose. This sure can't be an accident.



Guess that means all those hippies must be really smart for all the incense they keep burning. (sarcasm)



Atheism is the lack of belief in gods at its most simplistic meaning. Buddhism doesn't encourage belief in gods. For that matter, it also doesn't encourage lack of belief in gods, but at its simplest meaning, atheism is merely the lack of belief in god. And it does lack that.



The only such teachings that i can remember off the top of my head are actually about such belief being a hindrance if one's goal is to remove attachments.



What do you mean, "they?" Are you trying to imply that you, as an outsider, know more about my religion than myself? What gives you that picture?

As for the "what i think they are meditating on", it can be anything. Even gods, but for you to give out the idea that they're just an example to justify YOUR faith, then you are seriously mistaken here. Most likely, Buddhists would mediate as part of the path towards Nirvana. But it can be something as small as gaining concentration and insight into an issue.

Buddhist meditation - Wikipedia



You probably should have used conservapedia. And you should probably read your link further. Because none of the text you quote mined there actually supports what you're saying: That "Part of it is reverence and thankfulness to the deities." While many Buddhists would venerate such spirits and deities, what purpose would meditating on them serve?

"Devas are divine beings, though they are not all necessarily wise or on the Buddhist path and hence not final objects of refuge. They have very long lives which have much less suffering than humans, but are not immortal or immune from suffering. " From your link.

Oh and:

Deva (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

Devas and Yakshas are both considered lesser beings compared to Buddhas. They are of Samsara. Like ALL other "gods" in Buddhism. This is both much more complex than you seem to understand, and not as important as you seem to imply: The deities are not the point of Buddhism. At best they are used as examples, or metaphors. At worst, some of the mentions are merely criticisms of Hinduism.



You believe you have shown this. You are welcome to continue believing that.



So this is a bit like your logic in your previous threads such as a scientist believing in god = "creation scientist." If he did not teach about gods, then what part do gods serve in Buddhism? APART from a single Buddhist's personal beliefs, which you are merely assuming here.



Can you demonstrate which part?



I think you need to read more about the things you are making claims of before making such claims. This just makes you come off as judgmental without having the means to even understand what you're arguing.



And you don't think that's rational? I mean, if a religion has nothing to do with gods or deities, then...? You still think it's theistic?



First paragraph of your article: "The Six Realms are a description of conditioned existence, or samsara, into which beings are reborn. Although sometimes they are described as "real" places, more often these days they are appreciated as allegories."

And here's a Zen Buddhist's interpretation:

"In Buddhism, both naraka (infernal states) and deva state (angelic states) have not the same sense as in other religions. In Vedic religions which preceded Buddhism, for example, these states had the same meaning as in Catholicism. Still retains this meaning to some unenlightened Buddhists and can be seen even today buddhic images that resemble the gruesome descriptions of hell and paradise. But a true understanding of Buddhism gives to these states a mood status. Especially in Zen, these states [along with the other four realms and the states of Śrāvaka, Pratyekabuddha, Bodhisattva and Buddha - the ten spiritual realms] are explained as different stages that are unfolded during the practice of zazen."

-Taisen Deshimaru

From:

Desire realm - Wikipedia

The IMPORTANT point here is that these realms are part of Samsara.



That's a blog site. In fact, it's a common story that goes around the internet with slight variation. And in fact, that blog is the original source. And there are no references whatsoever. But even so:

"The Dalai Lama was telling everyone there that belief in God or religion doesn't ground one in the direct experience of the truth. To experience that truth, one must have a clear, calm, and tranquil mind, and this mind must be turned inward. Sadhana is the practice of turning inward. "Upon protection of the mind, the whole world is protected, and upon its destruction, the whole world is destroyed", say the scriptures. Cultivating a virtuous mind, then, is our dharma."

He was simply affirming that people can believe in gods. Nothing more.



Karma is not judgement.



So there is no judge, quite literally? Are you saying that the natural laws are judging us? If not, then why would you say that cause and effect are judging us? They aren't. You might not get rewarded for a good deed. In fact, you might even cause suffering by it. THAT is the nature of karma. It takes no sides in this regard.

A person with a well developed "sense of karma" can work to predict events based on careful consideration of all events and phenomena. Even then, he or she might not be entirely successful.



So, you are proposing belief in god to be the answer to dukkha, or suffering? Talk about using another religion to try and justify your own. Your misappropriation here has to be one of the least respectful i've seen in a LONG time.

You are trying to use the view of another religion to justify YOUR view. This lessens both your view and the view you are appropriating.

I wonder why you take the trouble to write so much in such an argumentative manner? Why don't you just go meditate on it and relieve your dissatisfaction and pain of my answers. Isn't that the whole point of Buddhism -- the Buddah, Dharma and Sangha? You can have your opinions as much as I can. Buddhism has its own origins, gods, afterlife and more and anyone can meditate on whatever they wish in order to achieve a higher state of consciousness. It's about the now and the different levels of consciousness instead of what material things I want or need. Whether I meditate about God, gods or not. In fact, I can just let it go and take the advice of the Dalai Lama and meditate on world peace. Suffice it to say that Buddhism is not an atheistic religion as Christians like myself can practice it ha ha.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I'm happy that james bond acknowledges that having faith or not having fa
ith is not a choice. It's going to really mess up the normal dogma of lots of Christian Churches.

I think too many people are dissatisfied and in pain to want to take a leap of faith and experience what Christians or the other side are saying today. They expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter such as I do not believe anything unless it is proven or demonstrated to me. What happened to investigating and finding out for oneself? Just regurgitation the answers and getting good grades is not what going to school is about. I just happened to learn how to think for myself as well as regurgitate the answers in order to get good grades. I can look at opposing theories and figure out the right answer. The "I do not believe anything unless it is proven or demonstrated to me" type of thinking just leads to more dissatisfaction and pain. Maybe it leads to the "ultimate" dissatisfaction and pain. The H-word.
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
I wonder why you take the trouble to write so much in such an argumentative manner?

Why do you?

Why don't you just go meditate on it and relieve your dissatisfaction and pain of my answers.

This isn't how this works, and you're giving yourself too much credit. :D

Buddhism just isn't about relieving oneself of suffering, dissatisfaction and pain, but to find the underlying causes of them and FIX them.

I wouldn't use escapism to avoid reality. That's not what meditation does either.

Isn't that the whole point of Buddhism -- the Buddah, Dharma and Sangha?

No. Those are the three jewels. Certainly not the whole point of Buddhism. A tiny fraction of it, perhaps.

You can have your opinions as much as I can.

But you're a Christian. Who seems to misunderstand a lot about Buddhism. You can have your interpretation though I'm not sure it'll help ease suffering, maybe the opposite. You are muddying the message with your silly attempt at trying to make Buddhism about your god.

Buddhism has its own origins, gods, afterlife and more and anyone can meditate on whatever they wish in order to achieve a higher state of consciousness.

Of course; But an important lesson is about attachments. And belief in a supreme being is an attachment. Yes, even irrational belief in the Buddha's superiority is considered a hindrance.

It's about the now and the different levels of consciousness instead of what material things I want or need.

I feel now you're guilty of taking your own westernized idea of Buddhism and going with it. But that's wrong. ALL of Buddhism is a TOOL. It's very much about the things you might need. Buddhism isn't also strictly against materialism. It's the middle path between materialism and asceticism.

You could think of this: Buddhism has rules and teachings. But if someone can get to the very end result by cheating, good for them. In fact, a person who would find such an easy method would most likely be venerated. But that's just a hypothetical example; Even at its easiest Buddhism isn't easy. It's got a lot to do with changing one's preconceptions. Which your posts are full of.

The real point is to alleviate suffering, in all its forms, both on an individual basis, and for the whole of humanity. Now, if there was a singular, super easy thing to do that would achieve all that, then that would be preferable. To the point that it would replace all of Buddhism. Justifiably. But Buddhism isn't easy. And it's very unlikely anyone manages to do that.

Right now we have a lot of different text books that are all written for different audiences. But the point is still the same in all of them, overall. That is to say, there are multiple ways for the same result.

Whether I meditate about God, gods or not. In fact, I can just let it go and take the advice of the Dalai Lama and meditate on world peace.

What good would meditating on world peace do? I mean, once you realize there isn't world peace, it's not going to alleviate your or anyone else's suffering. Incidentally: Let me ask you a hypothetical question: Knowing the state of Tibet, does the Dalai Lama suffer?

I think you're still misunderstanding the point of meditation in Buddhism. It won't actually give you magical answers to things, all you still have is you and your preconceptions. At best you can try to lose some of that.

Suffice it to say that Buddhism is not an atheistic religion as Christians like myself can practice it ha ha.

That's the most ridiculous non-sequitur i've seen in a while. At its most simplistic explanation, atheism is the lack of belief in gods. It's not an important point that Buddhism is atheistic to me, but i feel it is to you. I am using it here in the same context as you are using "atheist science:" There is only science. It'd be more accurate to say that Buddhism is entirely non-theistic. Theism and atheism are essentially non-issues for Buddhism. But again, with the simplest and strictest of definitions, it is also atheistic. Because it specifically lacks belief in god.

But again, it also lacks non-belief in god.
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
I can't be the liar because of the meditation, prayer, chanting leading to brain activity according to the article. I left out incense and that's part of it, too. None of it was achieved through atheism. None of the Buddhism's teachings have anything to do with belief in deities? Just exactly what do you think they are meditating on? Part of it is reverence and thankfulness to the deities. It just goes to show atheists are wrong again. Atheists love wikipedia, so for once I'll use it to nail them.

"Buddhism includes a wide array of divine beings that are venerated in various ritual and popular contexts. Initially they included mainly Indian deities such as devas and yakshas, but later came to include other Asian spirits and local gods. They range from enlightened Buddhas to regional spirits adopted by Buddhists or practiced on the margins of the religion."

Buddhist deities - Wikipedia

Thus, it just goes to show it's a western atheist myth about Buddhism. The Buddah believed in gods, but did not teach about gods. Yet, part of Buddhist meditation is to honor and worship their gods. Other meditations have to do with the self. All I can think of is atheists got their idea of Buddhism as atheistic because Buddhists do not believe in creation, judgment from their gods or an afterlife of heaven and hell like Christians. Heaven and hell I think is part of the earthly existence or birth and re-birth.

The Six Realms of Desire in the Buddhist Wheel of Life

Furthermore, the Tibetan monk, Dalai Lama, said so, "God exists or God does not exist. Leave it for us. Your task is to learn how to live peacefully." He didn't say God does not exist as atheists want to believe.

AWAKENING FROM THE DREAM: Dalai Lama Speaks - What About God?

Of course, the Dalai Lama believes in the afterlife and judgment in the form of karma. Yet, this karma does not involve a judge, but cause and effect or actions and consequences.

More from the Dalai Lama on the afterlife, science, China and Tibet's future



Meditation is a practice where a person calms their mind by "not thinking". When practicing, thoughts that arise are allowed to pass by like clouds in the sky. The purpose is to just notice the thoughts are there. Not to judge them or ruminate on them but to let them go. If a person is praying or thanking a god, they are praying and or worshipping not mediating. It takes a lot of practice to be able to really bring the mind to a true meditative state. And there are many atheist Zen Buddhist who meditate regularly. There are plenty of brain studies which show the benefits physically and mentally of regular meditation. It does not require a religion.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
First, I'm not a liar like you. You're just mad because atheists are losers. They do not want to admit religious brains have more activity in their frontal lobe due to meditation, prayer and chanting. One may question how scientific these experiments are, but Newberg is trying to apply scientific method to religion.

It's not my picture, but atheists try to paint Buddhists as atheistic in the West. Gautama Buddha, its founder, believed in gods as divine beings. So who's the liar here?



I meditate. I am an atheist. Sam Harris meditates. Sam Harris is an atheist. Oops, you lose.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I am an atheist, I meditate. Today I was engaged in attempting to visualize and vectorize a niche in a non analytic, rather a more conceptual fashion. It is not easy to remain still and focused, without permitting any distraction, on an n-dimensional hypervolume.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I would strongly question the premise that Buddhism doesn't require belief in god. As a very traditional Buddhist, I believe the Buddha when he says he talked to Brahma and others, and he had the awakened eye of Anutara Samyak Sambodhi. It comes close to questioning the Blessed One's judgment when a Buddhist denies there are gods in the cosmos. They say the Tathagata was wrong.

Was the Blessed One mistaken when he spoke of the gods, their karmic effects on the cosmos, and said some of them took refuge in the Triple Gem? What else can we speculate the Buddha was wrong about? What parts of the Dharma are we going to pick out to believe, because we want to be skeptics- thinking our ego sense knows better? What parts of the sublime Dharma are we going to discard?

Buddhism means having faith in the Buddha. That his words and teachings are true. Several monks throughout history have said a Buddhist without faith in the Buddha's full teaching are defaming the Triple Gem.
Talk about pulling some legs. ;0)
 

SinSaber

Member
IQ tests are pointless

1: there are many different variants. One will say Your a genius while the other says you need to wear a helmet

2: They were originally made by French teachers to see if Kindergardenrs were ready for 1st grade
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I don't know what you mean brudda

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's Handbook for Mankind. Therevada is about as traditional as it gets.

Buddhadasa addresses the issues in regards to inclusions of the supernatural in Buddhism and the impacts it has on Buddhism overall.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I'll have a look at it @Nowhere Man

I'm not adverse to looking at Theravada material. I rather like Bhikku Bodhi's direct style. I'm sure you know by traditional I mean Mahayana though...

I respect Theravada as a Buddhist vehicle, but there are reasons we shouldn't go looking too much into their material for our doctrine. It has nothing to do with dismissing Theravada out of hand, or just not wanting to listen to them.

One can find some useful insight and motivation for practice in Theravada texts, but our divisions run long and deep. There are disagreements between us about not only the Dharma, but the Blessed One himself.

Theravadans believe the Blessed One was like any other ordinary man. Some modern Mahayanists may like to think that, but it isn't the orthodox historical stance.

Whoever the Buddha saves through Theravada, the Buddha will save- tends to be my approach to the other vehicle.
 
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Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
There are Mahayana Sutras, one of them being the Parinirvana Sutra- that carry strong language against anyone that would say the Buddha was just an ordinary man, rather than being the thus come one from the heaven above the god realms. That is the Buddha realm on the far shore of Nirvana.

The Sutra says to know that such individuals are speaking the words of Mara. This Sutra shows the Buddha himself teaching he came from the heaven above the god realms. Even in Theravada Suttas, the Buddha teaches the gods. How could he be just an ordinary man?
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
medit2_custom-262615aa650a5c9f3c050ecccb7f9dbe3fb2337c-s800-c85.jpeg


I'm not a believer in neurotheology, but I would think that there is more activity and awareness in the religious brain, especially the frontal lobes, versus that of an atheist brain. This isn't to say that atheists are dull thinkers, but that they do not experience the full sense of consciousness or awareness of that of a religious person. The atheists are in a state of continual dissatisfaction and pain. Through prayer, chanting and meditation, the religious are able to tap into their neurological selves better in order to better achieve a closer to Nirvana or enlightenment state. In this sense, I am for the better enlightenment of all here.

Neurotheology: This Is Your Brain On Religion

Let's assume that what you say is true.

So, since we may make the safe assumption that our brains cannot control how they work, that seems to indicate that atheists have no control whatsoever on why they disbelieve. It would be like asking a blind man why he cannot see.

Now what? Are all atheists going to burn in hell for all eternity because the designer has basically a quality control issue with His brains production line?

Ciao

- viole
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Let's assume that what you say is true.

So, since we may make the safe assumption that our brains cannot control how they work, that seems to indicate that atheists have no control whatsoever on why they disbelieve. It would be like asking a blind man why he cannot see.

Now what? Are all atheists going to burn in hell for all eternity because the designer has basically a quality control issue with His brains production line?

Ciao

- viole

Hi Vi, nice to hear from you again. Last point first. I don't know if atheists will burn in hell, i.e. pain and suffering from severe burns to their spirit, for all eternity as you think. What I think happens is their perfect spiritual selves burns in the Lake of Fire. For example, Stephen Hawkins' physical body is decimated from disease. He would have a perfect spiritual body like Adam has a perfect physical body waiting for him. Since he's an atheist, he would have his perfect spiritual body destroyed. I don't know what happens to his current spirit or what it looks like. It probably looks like his physical self. Does it remain as is? Does it get sent to one of the levels of hell? I don't know. The other thing is he would be convinced that Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost (Trinity) exists. I don't know how he would have his mind changed as well as every other atheist. I think pain and suffering, whatever form it takes, is a great persuader.

I think what Newberg is trying to put forth is that religious brains have more activity in the frontal lobe due to meditation, prayer and chanting. He states that the atheist brain is baseline. I don't think it has anything to do with one's IQ. More activity in the frontal lobe in this case could mean a higher level of consciousness. Do you believe in consciousness even though it isn't physical? Do you believe that consciousness lives on after death?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hi Vi, nice to hear from you again. Last point first. I don't know if atheists will burn in hell, i.e. pain and suffering from severe burns to their spirit, for all eternity as you think. What I think happens is their perfect spiritual selves burns in the Lake of Fire. For example, Stephen Hawkins' physical body is decimated from disease. He would have a perfect spiritual body like Adam has a perfect physical body waiting for him. Since he's an atheist, he would have his perfect spiritual body destroyed. I don't know what happens to his current spirit or what it looks like. It probably looks like his physical self. Does it remain as is? Does it get sent to one of the levels of hell? I don't know. The other thing is he would be convinced that Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost (Trinity) exists. I don't know how he would have his mind changed as well as every other atheist. I think pain and suffering, whatever form it takes, is a great persuader.

I think that a spirit that does not burn, or that cannot be destroyed, is more perfect than a spirit that burns. Since it is not possible for something perfect to be outperformed by something else, we can deduce that there exists no perfect spirit that can burn, or be subjected to other forms of exothermic chemical reaction.

I think what Newberg is trying to put forth is that religious brains have more activity in the frontal lobe due to meditation, prayer and chanting. He states that the atheist brain is baseline. I don't think it has anything to do with one's IQ. More activity in the frontal lobe in this case could mean a higher level of consciousness. Do you believe in consciousness even though it isn't physical? Do you believe that consciousness lives on after death?

I think consciousness is an emergent form of information processing. Therefore, like information, it is physical. Try to be conscious without generating entropy (i.e. eat food). So, no matter what, even if we were able to transfer our consciousness to another medium, like a robot/computer or something, computation will be possible only up to the point where new entropy can be generated. Ergo, up to the point when the Universe will be in thermodynamical equilibrium. After that (or before that, since the time arrow will also vanish) no consciousness of any kind will be possible.

So, unless your spirits live in a certain physical and thermodynamical context (where for instance time has a direction), they cannot be conscious, either.

Ciao

- viole
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I think that a spirit that does not burn, or that cannot be destroyed, is more perfect than a spirit that burns. Since it is not possible for something perfect to be outperformed by something else, we can deduce that there exists no perfect spirit that can burn, or be subjected to other forms of exothermic chemical reaction.

Too much physical world thinking. It's the physical world that is temporary. The permanence of the perfect spirit being burned is everlasting.

I think consciousness is an emergent form of information processing. Therefore, like information, it is physical. Try to be conscious without generating entropy (i.e. eat food). So, no matter what, even if we were able to transfer our consciousness to another medium, like a robot/computer or something, computation will be possible only up to the point where new entropy can be generated. Ergo, up to the point when the Universe will be in thermodynamical equilibrium. After that (or before that, since the time arrow will also vanish) no consciousness of any kind will be possible.

I'd agree that consciousness is part information "processing," but it's more than that. It's beyond the physical or just the brain. It's also the mind, thoughts, virtual memory and pain and suffering (The last one is the one I learned recently through Buddhism. We do not want to be in continual dissatisfaction and pain.). There are different levels of consciousness at every moment.

Then you get more into the physical. Information isn't just physical. It can be metaphysical and virtual. We can't store complete HD video and audio in our brains. Yes, our bodies need food, but so does our mind/consciousness and spirit/soul with good religion such as Christianity or Buddhism. Conscience is part of our consciousness. Love is part of our soul which make up our spirit. The soul contains our personalities which are unique to each individual. Our bodies burns energy with good food and our spirit burns spiritual energy with good thoughts and impressions. Neurology, which once seemed promising, has gone towards atheist science. Now, it tries to explain everything as part of the body and brain. Everything is stored inside the physical. They just can't figure out when it all dies/ends nor can they figure out how it begins. Nor can they explain how it came to be from a fish or monkey ha ha.

So, unless your spirits live in a certain physical and thermodynamical context (where for instance time has a direction), they cannot be conscious, either.

The spirit will continue beyond spacetime and we'll have to see how many dimensions beyond the physical there are.

Ciao.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods at its most simplistic meaning. Buddhism doesn't encourage belief in gods. For that matter, it also doesn't encourage lack of belief in gods, but at its simplest meaning, atheism is merely the lack of belief in god. And it does lack that.

False..

Secular Buddhists are defaming the Triple Gem and doing just what the Buddha warned about- bringing about the degeneration of the Dharma.

The Buddha believed in the gods. What secular Buddhists say doesn't resemble historical Buddhism in any way.

Go ahead and say the Buddha was wrong about such a big subject. Why call him your teacher? You think you know better than the fully awakened Tathagata- when the scriptures possessed by both vehicles show him discoursing with Indra, Brahma, and others?

Being a Buddhist means believing in the Dharma and having faith in the Blessed One's words.
 
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