Have Evangelicals Destroyed Christian Morality in the US?

BilliardsBall · Jan 31, 2018

Sunstone said:
Colorado Springs, where I live, is the home of over 300 Christian non-profit "ministries", including Focus on the Family. Focus on the Family is a large Evangelical organization founded by James Dobson that, among other things, seeks to influence politics in the US on all levels. It is especially notorious for its attacks on the rights of LGBT folks, but its activism doesn't stop there. It pushes a broad social and political agenda.

Some long time ago, I came across a chilling quote of Dobson's in the local newspaper. It was from around the time when he founded Focus on the Family. I can no longer recall the exact words he used but I believe this is an accurate paraphrase:

"People have got it wrong. They think Christian morals are about old ladies being nice, sweet, treating everyone fairly. But that's only the velvet glove of Christianity. We are going to show people the iron fist. We are going to change how people view Christianity. We are going to make sinners fear us."

Now, I don't suppose everyone who is younger than about 40 these days is fully aware of how Christianity and Christian morals were most often thought of by most people back before James Dobson and other Evangelical leaders changed the public perception of the religion. However, I've heard more than one person my own age or older speak with regret about the "old days".

You see, back in the old days, the most popular view was that Christians -- if and when they lived up to their ideals -- had exemplary morals. In fact, it was not uncommon to think and speak of "true Christians" as the most moral people in any given community -- even the most moral people possible.

To call someone a "True Christian" in most communities was to say in effect that they treated everyone, regardless of their background (such as race, social and economic class, religion, etc) with fairness, dignity, and respect. It was to say that they were a gentle person who rigorously avoided unnecessarily hurting anyone, who readily forgave any slights against themselves, who ever sought to see the best in others (even people considered grievous sinners), and who strove to be the most humane person they themselves could be.

And that was just the start of it. In the popular imagination, a true Christian was the peak, the acme of human moral excellence. The phrase, true Christian, even at times was applied to people who were not Christians, as in, "He's Jewish, but he's more of a True Christian than most Christians".

Of course, there were people who didn't hold such a positive view of Christian morals, but they seemed to me a relatively small minority at the time. The main criticism you heard of Christians was that they didn't always live up to their ideals, not that their ideals were bad or evil.

I think it's very different today. The custom of praising someone for being a true Christian is almost unheard of now. So many people these days find that they disagree with what passes for core Christian values now -- anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-evolution, anti-climate change, pro prosperity gospel, and even willing to condone such evils as racism, sexism, sexual molestation, wealth inequality, and so forth if it is politically expedient to do so. Political power at all cost. That's what Christianity -- in moral terms -- has come to mean for so many people today.

I think Evangelicals -- the folks who by all accounts led this change -- were deeply unwise to do so. I suspect that the coming years will see interest in their brand of Christianity wane with most morally healthy people while it yet increases with the morally insane.

But what do you think?

For further reading: The Death of Christianity in the US. An angry, but I think fairly accurate condemnation of today's Evangelical values.

I'm inclined to agree, it is horrible to take exception with people who dare speak against divorce, abortion, adultery, fornication, drug abuse and voting for the Clintons.

Epic Beard Man · Jan 31, 2018

Sunstone said:
Colorado Springs, where I live, is the home of over 300 Christian non-profit "ministries", including Focus on the Family. Focus on the Family is a large Evangelical organization founded by James Dobson that, among other things, seeks to influence politics in the US on all levels. It is especially notorious for its attacks on the rights of LGBT folks, but its activism doesn't stop there. It pushes a broad social and political agenda.

Some long time ago, I came across a chilling quote of Dobson's in the local newspaper. It was from around the time when he founded Focus on the Family. I can no longer recall the exact words he used but I believe this is an accurate paraphrase:

"People have got it wrong. They think Christian morals are about old ladies being nice, sweet, treating everyone fairly. But that's only the velvet glove of Christianity. We are going to show people the iron fist. We are going to change how people view Christianity. We are going to make sinners fear us."

Now, I don't suppose everyone who is younger than about 40 these days is fully aware of how Christianity and Christian morals were most often thought of by most people back before James Dobson and other Evangelical leaders changed the public perception of the religion. However, I've heard more than one person my own age or older speak with regret about the "old days".

You see, back in the old days, the most popular view was that Christians -- if and when they lived up to their ideals -- had exemplary morals. In fact, it was not uncommon to think and speak of "true Christians" as the most moral people in any given community -- even the most moral people possible.

To call someone a "True Christian" in most communities was to say in effect that they treated everyone, regardless of their background (such as race, social and economic class, religion, etc) with fairness, dignity, and respect. It was to say that they were a gentle person who rigorously avoided unnecessarily hurting anyone, who readily forgave any slights against themselves, who ever sought to see the best in others (even people considered grievous sinners), and who strove to be the most humane person they themselves could be.

And that was just the start of it. In the popular imagination, a true Christian was the peak, the acme of human moral excellence. The phrase, true Christian, even at times was applied to people who were not Christians, as in, "He's Jewish, but he's more of a True Christian than most Christians".

Of course, there were people who didn't hold such a positive view of Christian morals, but they seemed to me a relatively small minority at the time. The main criticism you heard of Christians was that they didn't always live up to their ideals, not that their ideals were bad or evil.

I think it's very different today. The custom of praising someone for being a true Christian is almost unheard of now. So many people these days find that they disagree with what passes for core Christian values now -- anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-evolution, anti-climate change, pro prosperity gospel, and even willing to condone such evils as racism, sexism, sexual molestation, wealth inequality, and so forth if it is politically expedient to do so. Political power at all cost. That's what Christianity -- in moral terms -- has come to mean for so many people today.

I think Evangelicals -- the folks who by all accounts led this change -- were deeply unwise to do so. I suspect that the coming years will see interest in their brand of Christianity wane with most morally healthy people while it yet increases with the morally insane.

But what do you think?

For further reading: The Death of Christianity in the US. An angry, but I think fairly accurate condemnation of today's Evangelical values.

I read that article you linked earlier btw...it was a good read.

Epic Beard Man · Jan 31, 2018

Terese said:
Very interesting OP, going to read the link

Ok a bit of a non-sequitor but I'm really trying to understand the meaning of that picture you have as a signature.

Kenny · Jan 31, 2018

jonathan180iq said:
Did I mention you by name or quote you directly?

Did I call you by name?

All I did was use your same brush, just with a different color

Epic Beard Man · Jan 31, 2018

The Ragin Pagan said:
Personally I think Christianity was destroyed the moment Rome adopted it. Evangelists haven't helped the image of this spiritual war-machine, nor has America's fetish with over-religious presence.

Creflo Dollar and Copeland make me sick...But I blame the idiots who follow them.

jonathan180iq · Jan 31, 2018

KenS said:
Did I call you by name?

All I did was use your same brush, just with a different color

I did not tell you what you do, who you are, or how you think. I made a statement about the larger trending habits of Western Christianity; specifically American Christianity.

Answer me this:
Do you, as a Christian, not think that Capitalism and Nationalism, for example, have become a blithe on the modern state of Western Christianity? Are these things that are not expressly spoken poorly of in the New Testament?

It Aint Necessarily So · Jan 31, 2018

Windwalker said:
Wow. I couldn't have said this better. From the article:

"The Evangelicals’ Jesus is satanic, and those who hustle this demon are “false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve” (2 Cor. 11:13-15, NIV).
....

I have always considered myself to be an evangelical, but I can no longer allow my name to be tarnished by that political party masquerading as Christian. Like many women and men of good will who still struggle to believe, but not in the evangelical political agenda, I too no longer want or wish to be associated with an ideology responsible for tearing humanity apart. But if you, dear reader, still cling to a hate-mongering ideology, may I humbly suggest you get saved."

I think it's high time Christians return the favor and now save God from these charlatans, like Dobson and company.

Christianity is the sum of its audible voices and visible deeds. Presently, it has a terrible PR problem in America. What is the face of the church to the culture at large?

And the evangelicals are perhaps the loudest voice and most visible actors. Christianity is being defined by people like Roy Moore, the Palins and Duggars, the cake bakers and government clerks refusing to serve same sex couples, the Duck Dynasty guy, the public bathroom thing, the claim that there is a war on Christmas, giving Trump a pass, etc..

For that reason, I think it's helpful that Christians that don't approve of the evangelicals speak out in condemnation. Those that don't are condoning such values and have no reason not to expect to be confused with those that approve of them. Those that do are setting the better example, which is helpful to Christians and non-Christians alike.

The Kilted Heathen · Jan 31, 2018

To be fair, I see an awful lot of "Keep Christ in Christmas" bumper stickers on cars that also identify as Catholic, so it's not just the Evangelicals being social jackasses.

Kenny · Jan 31, 2018

jonathan180iq said:
I did not tell you what you do, who you are, or how you think. I made a statement about the larger trending habits of Western Christianity; specifically American Christianity.

Answer me this:
Do you, as a Christian, not think that Capitalism and Nationalism, for example, have become a blithe on the modern state of Western Christianity? Are these things that are not expressly spoken poorly of in the New Testament?

It seemed all inclussive when you said Western Christianity. Forgive my mis-interpretation

But to answer your question:

Capitalism (under the Biblical understanding) is both good and necessary. What people do to capitalism has nothing to do with Christianity. Some Christians misuse is just as non-christians can abuse it.

It is NOT poorly spoken of in the New Testament. Love of money is poorly spoken of in the New Testament.

What I find is that it isn't Christianity that has caused the problem as much as it has been the lack thereof

I don't find where nationalism is spoken of at all... can you share where it is at? I'm willing to learn.

Windwalker · Jan 31, 2018

It Aint Necessarily So said:
For that reason, I think it's helpful that Christians that don't approve of the evangelicals speak out in condemnation. Those that don't are condoning such values and have no reason not to expect to be confused with those that approve of them.

I've never exactly cared for that line of reasoning I first heard from Sam Harris years ago, that if mainline Christianity does not explicitly challenge them, they are tacitly sending the message they are approving of them. Even when I was self-identifying as an atheist, that line of reasoning seemed off. Not everyone who doesn't vocally stand up or demonstrate against fundamentalism is "condoning" it. That line of argument reminds of "if you're not for me, you're against me".

I think most mainline Christians just see them as the crazy cousins to Christianity, who really aren't practicing Christianity, but rather some of form of dysfunctional narcissistic religion misappropriating Christian symbolism as projections of their own inner pathologies. To speak out about them in a real sense actually gives them some degree of credibility by dignifying them with a response. So, I think Harris maybe be giving fundamentalists more power than they are due.

In the article however, this is someone who sees these charlatans listed within the numbers of their own ranks as evangelicals. My one criticism of him would be where he saying that he no longer wants to use the term Evangelical to describe himself because of them. That is giving the power of the term away to them, far more than they are deserving of. I think he was on target though when he says it's them who aren't actually Christians. I think most of Christianity already considers them outside of the religion, so I'm not sure why they would need to dignify them by giving them a place at the table in criticizing them. In other words, it's not a form of Christianity, but not Christian to begin with.

It Aint Necessarily So said:
Those that do are setting the better example, which is helpful to Christians and non-Christians alike.

I think what might help is if the question comes up, they just roll their eyes and say, "Oh, they're just a cult of personality, not a real religion", and then don't talk about them.

The Kilted Heathen · Jan 31, 2018

KenS said:
It seemed all inclussive when you said Western Christianity.

"Western Christianity" doesn't necessarily mean "Western Christians". Ironically, it's the same principle as "love the sinner, hate the sin"; you are not your religion (something that Americans of all faiths need to learn, frankly), but your religion has earned much ire and disgust over the ages.

Kenny · Jan 31, 2018

The Ragin Pagan said:
"Western Christianity" doesn't necessarily mean "Western Christians". Ironically, it's the same principle as "love the sinner, hate the sin"; you are not your religion (something that Americans of all faiths need to learn, frankly), but your religion has earned much ire and disgust over the ages.

As well as praise and honor. Not to mention that sometimes the "disgust" is just because of their faith.

SinSaber · Feb 2, 2018

*shrug* Yeah they suck but I’m pretty sure your idea of Christianity is over corrective. Sins and devout behavior doesn’t matter, just be a doormat to the world

SinSaber · Feb 2, 2018

Skwim said:
I don't see evangelicalism doing much of anything except making noise. It's their métier. According to the graphic here, it comprises only about a quarter of all faiths and like all the categories except for one, is declining in membership percentage, although rather insignificantly.

Personally, I don't believe anti-choice, anti-LGBT rights, anti-evolution, anti-climate change, are representative of core Christian values. I know the Lutheran church, the United Church of Christ, and the Episcopal church are now marrying homosexuals, and the United Methodist Church is seriously considering doing the same. Plus, a host of denominations now affirm LGBT rights. The Presbyterian Church, Unitarian Universalists, United Church of Christ, and both Conservative and Reform Judaism support abortion rights with few or no limits. (The Episcopal Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church and Methodist Church all support abortion rights, but with some limits.) As for evolution, the United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church, Judaism, Catholicism all accept evolution; moreover, 50% of the American population accepts it. So if anything, the core Christian values regarding these issues has shifted considerably.

So, I don't see evangelicals destroying Christian morality at all. Christian morality, specifically where it concerns LGBT and abortion rights is making a huge 180, and, IMO, for the better.

.

.

180 means forgetting Gods laws and being people pleasers

SinSaber · Feb 2, 2018

Sha'irullah said:
Evangelicals have destroyed Christian morality the same way Disney has destroyed Star Wars and Marvel. With constant pandering to every group possible and forcing politics where it is not suited. It is deplorable at the end of the day and a sad reflection on American life when people who consistently show no morals try to implement the morals they lack into public life.

Episcaplaions have done the exact same thing but with liberal audiences

9-10ths_Penguin · Feb 2, 2018

KenS said:
Capitalism (under the Biblical understanding) is both good and necessary.

Chapter and verse, please.

It is NOT poorly spoken of in the New Testament. Love of money is poorly spoken of in the New Testament.

Luke 6:

20 Then he looked up at his disciples and said:

“Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God belongs to you.
[...]
“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your comfort already.

I don't find where nationalism is spoken of at all... can you share where it is at? I'm willing to learn.

Galatians 3:28, for one:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

SinSaber · Feb 2, 2018

The Ragin Pagan said:
To be fair, I see an awful lot of "Keep Christ in Christmas" bumper stickers on cars that also identify as Catholic, so it's not just the Evangelicals being social jackasses.

I see plenty of liberal bumper stickers that are guilty of social jackassery

Skwim · Feb 2, 2018

SinSaber said:
180 means forgetting Gods laws and being people pleasers

Whatever. At least the world is a of a bit better place for the changes.

.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Feb 2, 2018

74x12 said:
The people search for him and find Him, but Jesus knows they only want the materiel blessings. Jesus preaches to them about spiritual things and they all leave.

That's usually because you can starve to death before many perks preachers mention arrive. Who, if asked for bread, would give them a bible?

KenS said:
I assume you are just like Castro, Mao and Stalin? Kill them all?

Won't have to. Just put them all in a room with some guns and wait a few days.

Sha'irullah said:
Evangelicals have destroyed Christian morality the same way Disney has destroyed Star Wars and Marvel.

Fantastic Four. X-Men: The Last Stand. Star Wars Episodes 1 and 2 (and the fact that Lucas appeared to think an entire galaxy had maybe a couple of black people and a couple of females in it throughout the entire saga). Most Spider-Man movies.

Your apology is accepted.

I will only agree with you if Disney does a KOTOR story and screws up HK47. LOL.

Sha'irullah said:
With constant pandering to every group possible and forcing politics where it is not suited.

It only pandered to white males to begin with because nonwhites and nonmales weren't assumed to enjoy scifi. It was all about rebelling against a tyrannical government (edit: led, might I add, by racist genocidal white guys with British accents). You can't have a Republic nor an Empire without politics. It's how the universe works.

74x12 · Feb 2, 2018

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
That's usually because you can starve to death before many perks preachers mention arrive. Who, if asked for bread, would give them a bible?

But they had no need of bread anymore in the city when they found Jesus. Jesus wanted to talk about spiritual bread which they didn't want to hear about. They wanted Him to be their king to lead them in a fight against the Romans or whatever their plans were. (Who knows.) My point is they did kind of become "needy" all of a sudden.

Have Evangelicals Destroyed Christian Morality in the US?

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