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Where Christianity and Buddhism Agree?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes, but that also carried with it many kinds of dogma that at times show a clear way back to the teaching we received in through the Bible. Thus you have some Viking beliefs that imo have their origin way back then, we have the Sumerian tales that at some level give a similar tale but with differences, some big, that make some scientists even claim that the Bible is a copycat tale on these issues.
I was simply referring to how our humanity would naturally cause the condemnation of murder, theft, and to value some other human properties.

Unless damaged, we all come equipped with an in-born 'conscience' as per Romans 2:14-15
That is how the Bible explains why humanity (peoples of the nations) would naturally condemn murder, theft, etc.

Sumerian tales are post-flood tales, as would Viking beliefs be post-flood tales, as is Babylon in Genesis 10.
I read that even astrologers claim to go back to ancient Babylon for their origin.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There was one similarity which tends to get overlooked. If we look at what Jesus was aiming to achieve, he appears to be trying to form something akin to a monastic order among his disciples. He exhorts them to leave their wealth and possessions, adopt celibacy etc. It really didn't have the feeling of a lay doctrinal religion in the making, more a path to gnosis.

I never read Jesus taught to adopt celibacy in his teachings. I can't find that.
'Context and setting' I find needs to be considered when researching the Scriptures. For example:
At Mark 10:29-30 about leaving things was in connection to those who would take up foreign missionary work.
One rich man Jesus spoke with: put his material life ahead of a spiritual life style.
In other words, he chose his possessions over becoming a follower of Jesus.
That man should have 'left his love' of wealth and possessions attachments instead of putting wealth first in his life.
On the other hand, God's servant Paul made tents for a living so as Not to be a burden to anyone - Acts 18:3 B.
Jesus exhorts at Matthew 20:25-27 that whoever wants to be great among you would be your 'servant'.
A servant is Not required to give up his possessions and become celebrate because one is a servant.

What was ' Jesus aiming to achieve ' is recorded at Luke 4:43 to tell others about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
Jesus gave all of his followers the same spiritual job to do according to Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
We are to internationally proclaim and spread the ' good news about God's kingdom government ' being in the hands of Christ Jesus for a thousand years as the coming solution to end all the suffering on Earth.
Then, at that time, even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
It's just an impression gleaned from the spread of early Christianity. Many early Christians were celibate and dedicated their energy to the religion. Having no possessions is not a good prerequisite for sexual relations and the pregnancy etc that would follow. Sure they had to compromise to convert to enlarge the faith but many were quasi-monastic in their approach.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
It's just an impression gleaned from the spread of early Christianity. Many early Christians were celibate and dedicated their energy to the religion. Having no possessions is not a good prerequisite for sexual relations and the pregnancy etc that would follow. Sure they had to compromise to convert to enlarge the faith but many were quasi-monastic in their approach.

Not having the information about those early Christians being celibate would indicate to me: un-married converts.
Those who became Christians around the time of Pentecost in Acts of the Apostles 2 more than likely were already married. They would have stayed married, but single converts could have chosen (if they wanted) to remain single.
True, single people would Not have the distractions and could devote more time and energy to preach as Jesus did.
So, after the first century ended there could have been more single people dedicating more time and energy.
However, singleness is Not a Christian requirement.
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
However, singleness is Not a Christian requirement.
Nowadays, obviously not. Paul was none too keen on the whole business either and held up a celibate life as being the best for those who could manage it. I'm also not aware that Jesus ever instructed his disciples to marry. There were obviously married people who gained faith in Jesus but weren't inclined to 'leave it all behind them' and we also find this in Buddhist suttas. Some who were impressed with the Buddha joined the Sangha of monks or nuns, others declared themselves to be lay followers.

Same in all major religions that have both monastic and lay options. Jesus' disciples were single and they definitely promoted this lifestyle. Obviously as Christianity became a mainstream "Roman religion" it adapted, though the monastic element still existed and was to form a key component in the flowering of European learning in the early middle ages.

It's my belief that the Orthodox Desert Fathers live as Jesus had instructed. Householder Christianity is a watered-down version lacking in the deeper meditative elements mentioned in the Philokalia.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
That is how the Bible explains why humanity (peoples of the nations) would naturally condemn murder, theft, etc.

Yet the 'peoples of the nations' do not do that. You aren't taking into account the societal aspect of morals, and that just about every culture right on down from the most ancient pagans understands expediency. We know that this idea of gentiles or other nations being evil people without any sense of good is frankly- bunk. The Greeks provide examples of some of the highest reflections on the good of any ancient culture.
 
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Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
@URAVIP2ME I'm sure you'd love to explain the systems of thought from the ancient world that actually have superior moral and humane standards when compared with Christianity. Such as Epicureanism.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
the myths on cuneiform tablets are dated before the Hebrew language existed.
Some take all of the above, called myths, as things that have no foundation in reality. I see such myths, as you phrase it, where we can point to parallels as our race's primordial memory as received through a common point of origin (simplistically stated). Since I believe in a God, I also accept that He influenced what the Hebrews received, through written material and inspiration.

On these points, there shall always be disagreement. It matters not. No two humans can usually agree about much.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Unless damaged, we all come equipped with an in-born 'conscience' as per Romans 2:14-15
That is how the Bible explains why humanity (peoples of the nations) would naturally condemn murder, theft, etc.

Sumerian tales are post-flood tales, as would Viking beliefs be post-flood tales, as is Babylon in Genesis 10.
I read that even astrologers claim to go back to ancient Babylon for their origin.
About conscience, we might all have it more or less from small, however, the cultural values from country are at times so stark that in no way can you assume that the other human standing facing you will have the same social values and actions that you do. I some country/ies the china-man could be killed without repercussion, in others the farmer, the village person - might be test material for the sword on a bad samurai hair day.

I think the stronger version of a Biblical human depiction is this:
Ecclesiastes 8:9 All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury.​
The conscience is overruled in places where social values take over. If I am your Lord and you do something that displeases me greatly, 'Off with his head.'
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Since we are talking about human religious systems, there usually are things in all religions that agree with others.

At the core is the common belief, from the time man evolved the ability to think and question, was the sense of something greater than himself, a wholly Other. The religious differences attempt to define and relate to this Mystery.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
However, singleness is Not a Christian requirement.

It was a requirement for catholic monks however for centuries to the present day. The protestants led by Martin Luther decided to do away with this tradition in the sixteenth century A.D.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
There was one similarity which tends to get overlooked. If we look at what Jesus was aiming to achieve, he appears to be trying to form something akin to a monastic order among his disciples. He exhorts them to leave their wealth and possessions, adopt celibacy etc. It really didn't have the feeling of a lay doctrinal religion in the making, more a path to gnosis.

You raise an excellent point that does tend to get overlooked.

Jesus said:

Luke 14:33

So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.

This is very clear.

The "ideal" lifestyle promoted by Jesus himself in the Synoptics, unvarnished by the exigencies of later periods, consisted of a simple itinerant (wandering) existence and the complete renunciation of all personal possessions. This is inimical to the condition and mores of a "householder", which is why the New Testament also tells us that he had a mass of "sympathizers" who patronized him while remaining in a domestic, family life.

Compare this with the Buddhist monks of the Theravada tradition who also own nothing and depend on laypeople for food and clothing. The Pali term for a monk (Bhikkhu) literally means "beggar", I think - please correct me if wrong.

Roy C. Amore, a member of the Department of Religious Studies of the University of Windsor, noted in relation to this in a study:

"Lord, let me first go and bury my father." But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead." From an Indian point of view, Jesus is speaking to two men who have asked to be monks, full-time followers of the wandering master, who have not severed their ties to home and relatives. What would be obligatory for a householder — burying one's father — becomes unthinkable for a monk. What the householder takes for granted — the minimum security of having a roof over one's head — is not available to the wandering monk. There are many passages in Buddhism that make these points in various ways

New Testament scholars including Gerd Theissen, Dale Allison and Dominic Crossan have long noted that an "itinerant/householder" division was established by Jesus himself. To quote one 2011 study by Philip L. Tite:


The itinerant life required a lack of family. The one who responds to the call is to abandon his wife, children, and broader household. Mark 10:28–31 and Luke 14:26 defines discipleship as a status in opposition to family, and thereby reject the family structure. The tensions between Jesus and his own family in all four New Testament gospels again present him as the exemplar of itinerancy. Third, a charismatic wanderer must lack possessions.

And yet another study:

From Jesus to his First Followers: Continuity and Discontinuity

Only itinerant followers, in Luke's view, are supposed to sell everything, whereas sympathizers may adopt a less radical attitude. This is consistent with the image of a movement that is based, at the same time, on its active members who abandon their household and on householders who guarantee hospitality.

Jesus literally instructed his disciples to leave behind "everything" - their homes, lands, trades and families:

Mark 10:28-30

28 Peter began to say to him, “Look, we have left everything and followed you.” 29 Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news,[a] 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age—houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

What he is saying above, is that you are to "leave" your own house and family to be received into the company of your "brothers and sisters" in the Jesus movement, who share everything in common and go about on foot without private possessions, thus acting as your surrogate family. This radical outlook (in a first century Jewish context) is typified by a set of very brisk statements that are somewhat shocking in their blunt endorsement of the itinerant life above the householder one:

Luke 9:57-62

57 As they were going along the road, someone said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” 59 To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” 60 But Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 Another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home.” 62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

The meaning above is plain as the eye to see: Jesus is telling would-be followers that if they truly want to be among his inner core of disciples then they must be absolutely dedicated and single-minded in their commitment to apostolic poverty (no personal possessions) and the itinerant, travelling lifestyle reliant on the beneficence of "householder" disciples (for want of a better word) whose charitable donations and offering of their homes for temporary lodging would bankroll their way of life, so that they could be free to roam around Galilee and "carry no purse, no bag, no sandals" (Luke 10:4), wholly dependant upon the charity of townsfolk whom they encounter on their travels: "Whenever you enter a town and its people welcome you, eat what is set before you" (Luke 10:8).

It's my belief that the Orthodox Desert Fathers live as Jesus had instructed. Householder Christianity is a watered-down version lacking in the deeper meditative elements mentioned in the Philokalia.

In essence that's correct but there was one important difference: while Jesus was itinerant, the Desert Fathers tended to remain fixed in one place: either a monastery with other monks or in a hermitage by themselves.

It's actually the mendicant orders of Catholic Europe, like the Franciscans and the Dominicans (known as "friars") who are the most akin to Jesus' way of life and to that of the Buddhist Bhikkhus.

This is why the great Pali scholar (and Buddhist covert) Maurice O'Connell Walshe (1911-1998), former Vice-President of the Buddhist Society and Chair of the English Sangha Trust, once noted in an article that I quoted on the other thread:


Wheel No:275/276, Buddhism and Christianity


An essential feature of medieval Christianity is the importance of monasticism...It is significant that two different cultures should have developed such an institution, which seems to go so much against the grain of human nature.

Those who have grown up against a background of Protestantism often scarcely realize the extent to which monasticism still plays a living role not only in the Roman Catholic but also in the Orthodox Church. The ideal of ascetic self-restraint as a way of purification was a fundamental one in early Christianity, and often led to excesses of self- mortification.

But in Western Christendom the wise rule established by St. Benedict (529) was a model for all subsequent monastic orders. Here, despite all theoretical differences, Christian and Buddhist practice approached each other closely, though it was the mendicant orders (‘friars’ not ‘monks’) founded in the early 13th century by St. Dominic and St. Francis of Assisi that came nearest to the Bhikkhu Sangha. And something of the same ascetic spirit outside the monastic orders is seen in the rule of celibacy for all clergy in the Roman Catholic Church, and for bishops in the Orthodox Church
See also:

Encyclopedia of Community


Mendicant monasticism, instituted by Gautama Buddha (586–483 BCE), the founder of Buddhism, is a variation of the cenobitic form. Mendicants originally lived in communities of beggars and, as a discipline of humility, were forbidden to own either communal or personal property. Mendicantism, the original ideal for Franciscan and Dominican communities, was developed independently in Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church does not consider mendicants as monastic, and mendicantism does not exist in Orthodox (Eastern) Christianity.

Encyclopedia of Religious and Spiritual Development

Mendicant, in this sense, refers to begging. The Franciscans were known as a begging order in that they begged for their daily sustenance and that of the impoverished they lived with. Mendicants did not believe in owning property and so they did not live in a monastery as such. Instead they lived out in the world and were known as friars rather than monks.


The followers of St. Francis - the mendicant friars of his Franciscan order - wandered freely through the world known as little poor men, holy 'beggars', yet sought detachment from its lusts and follies, while being reliant upon the charity of householders in the towns and villages they traveled through.

At their foundation these mendicant orders rejected the previously established monastic model which foresaw living in one stable, isolated community where members worked at a trade and owned property in common. Monks sought actual physical seclusion from the world either in the desert or in enclosed or cloistered monasteries.

Jesus was a "mendicant" in his ministry (i.e. eschewing all possessions and property rather than simply sharing it in common) and instructed his disciples to be the same - as opposed to a cenobitic monk, like all Orthodox Christian monastics are (as well as non-mendicant Catholic monastics). So Jesus's way of life was actually more similar to Buddhist Bhikkhus (except that Bhikkhus live in monasteries as well as being mendicants, but crucially aren't cloistered) and Franciscans than the monks who wrote the Philokalia.
 
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Srivijaya

Active Member
So Jesus's way of life was actually more similar to Buddhist Bhikkhus and Franciscans than the monks who wrote the Philokalia.
An extremely informative post Vouthon, which really fleshes out what I had alluded to.

What I was hinting at regarding the Philokalia (though not in the least clearly) was that the Orthodox and Coptic monks have another similarity with Buddhist meditative practice based around bringing and stabilising the awareness at the heart. This also corresponds with the Hindu teachings of Atman at the heart chakra.

Hesychasm is a mystical tradition of contemplative prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Based on Jesus's injunction in the Gospel of Matthew that "when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray", Hesychasm in tradition has been the process of retiring inward by ceasing to register the senses, in order to achieve an experiential knowledge of God.

When practiced diligently, this can result in Samhadi - a state of union or absorption with the 'divine'. This would be interpreted differently in each faith but it would be experientially identical. It goes without saying that there is nothing at all like this in any mainstream Church congregations that I'm aware of. It seems such practices are considered dubious among more legalistic Christians.

See also:
Jesus Prayer - Wikipedia
Almost used like a mantra.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I never read Jesus taught to adopt celibacy in his teachings. I can't find that.

This made me think of 1 Timothy 4:1-3...

"1Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. 3They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. "

1 Timothy 4 BSB

interesting that the Bible, the book for professing Christians, mentions how some of them will be misled, by their own leaders, described as 'hypocrites and liars.'
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
I think Jesus's personal example of celibacy is a valid teaching in itself. I don't remember any reference to Jesus' s wife and kids in the bible.

If he had advocated marriage, he would have led by example in this regard.

Guru Nanak , the founder of Sikhism taught that the householder too can attain enlightenment, and personally married and had children to corroborate this teaching of his.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
This made me think of 1 Timothy 4:1-3...

"1Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. 3They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. "
I Cor 7 [8]To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I Cor 7 [8]To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.
I’m sure you would agree that there is a difference between making a voluntary choice to remain unmarried, and being forced to remain unmarried through prohibition.

Just stating what the Scripture says.

Take care.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yet the 'peoples of the nations' do not do that. You aren't taking into account the societal aspect of morals, and that just about every culture right on down from the most ancient pagans understands expediency. We know that this idea of gentiles or other nations being evil people without any sense of good is frankly- bunk. The Greeks provide examples of some of the highest reflections on the good of any ancient culture.

I noticed that you did Not explain why the ' people of the nations ' would Not have a conscience, because I wanted to stress that ALL peoples ( everywhere ) have a conscience which can guide people to do good.

I find Romans 2:14-15 'IS' taking into account 'societal aspects of morals' because we all have a built-in conscience.
Who says gentiles or other nations are evil people without good sense??? because we all ( everyone ) have a conscience. So, unless damaged, people can use their conscience as guide. So, the Greeks provide some of the highest reflection on the good ' because' of their 'built-in consciences'. Sorry for any misunderstanding because I would Not think other peoples are evil peoples. Jesus taught to go to ALL peoples, go to ALL nations everywhere which ALL of us can read his recorded words at Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20; Acts 1:8. God is Not partial because He shows love and concern for ALL peoples. 1 Peter 5:7 is written for ALL of us to cast our cares upon God because He cares for YOU.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
No one is forced to become a monk or a nun.

I never heard of anyone being forced to become a monk or a nun, etc., but those who become monks or nuns can Not marry. So, those who become monks or nuns do Not have a choice as to whether to marry or not.
That reminds me of the verse at 1 Timothy 4:3 which I find shows it is wrong to forbid marriage to anyone.
 
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