Fair enough
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Question about Noah's ark
- Thread starter Spiderman
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Fair enough
I don't know where you came up with that number.
Genesis 7:12
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Which only strengthens my claim of the flood being localized and not global.
Ok nevermind I went back an re-read. I see what your saying now. Your right it looks to be about a year in total from the first rain til the Earth was dry.
They were adrift a long time after the rains stopped, and fog wouldn't have bothered the birds. Plus the mountains are a range, if they put down on one they would have been too close to not notice. This is just reaching to try and justify an unjustifiable story.
Which mean a pair of horse will need between 7,000 and 14,000 lbs for the trip. At 50lbs per bale, that's 140 to 280 bales of hay, which averages out to 210 bales for the two horses.
Here's what 200 bales of hay looks like. Takes up quite a bit of room. And this is food just for the horses.
Either they packed enough food for the animals that have to be fed on a daily basis. But not all animals need food daily some can go weeks without food. So there would be no need to pack enough food to feed every animal daily. Just enough to keep them alive.
Or faith comes into play and God intervened and sustained the animals Himself, so that not that much food would be needed.
Birds are just as susceptible to fog as anything else. I have had enough birds kill themselves on my mountainside home because they crashed into the side of it on foggy mornings.
Btw The mountain was in range.
Genesis 8:4
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
So the mountain range was not totally underwater. Because the ark landed on it in Genesis 8:4. Which does reinforce the localized flood theory.
Nope just pointing out people's misgivings and misunderstandings.
Bird ranging over water don't fly low over the water. It would have gone over the fog. Which there wouldn't have been that long after or all times anyway.
And yeah, the flood says exactly how many cubits of water covered the highest peak in genesis 7:20. There's literally no mountain in the vicinity small enough for that to be true without global consequence.
It said that the waters receded for the ark to set down.
Aldrnari
Active Member
Honestly, I couldn't tell you whether or not they're in there.
Question, though; would it matter to you if they were? Does something being written in the bible determine whether or not it is real to you?
The bible does speak of half angel and half human giants (Nephilim), and I'm not sure there is much in the way of archeological evidence to show that they did/do exist, unless you could show me evidence I haven't seen.
Although I'm undecided pending further research on the existence of god(s) in general, I'm pretty convinced by the evidence I have seen that YHWH doesn't exist- at least, not in the literal sense. Could you point me to the evidence you found convincing? I try to be open minded, and I'd like to compare this evidence to other evidences I've seen to the contrary.
He could, yes. But if that's the case, why not just snap his fingers and remove all but the most faithful people (Noah and his family) rather than needlessly killing countless people, animals, and plants in a way so horrible, that even he realised how bad it was and created the rainbow as a promise to us that he would never wipe us out in that specific way again?
I'm not an atheist.
I... What? None of my atheist friends have ever explained to me that they believe (or better yet, suspect) the universe began in the way you describe...
I agree ID seems very plausible.
Alrighty then.
Fog from rain that heavy could have lasted awhile. If it rains for a week solid where I live it will be 2-3 days of heavy fog before it clears up. So don't underestimate the foggy conditions.
Genesis 7:20
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
Cubit - Wikipedia
The Near Eastern or Biblical cubit is usually estimated as approximately 457 mm (18 in)
18×15=270 inches divided by 12= 22.5 feet
22.5 feet is not a lot true. But when Genesis 7:20 is mentioned was during the storm itself. So as I said before they would not have been able to see the mountains due to the heavy rain and wind. I believe they just couldn't see the mountains due to the the low visibility, and thus assumed it was under water. Which is where the hang up might be.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
OK. Want a game of chess? Go for a walk!
Here I have a problem - namely, you are not Christian, at least on your profile. Still, even among Christians disagreement is rampant.
Few Christians can explain chapter one of Genesis, the sun problem. I can. Of course, you might object to my reasoning; still, imo, it is a rational explanation.
Many a non believer has expressed disbelief as to the deluge's waters covering Mount Everest and such high mountains, and indeed they should because it didn't happen. There is not enough water anywhere to accomplish that feat. Unfortunately, no matter how reasonable my explanation might be, if you do not believe the Bible, you won't believe my explanations.
Global warming - The ocean floor is sinking!!
Just recently we had some strange information about the ocean floor deforming due to the increase of water. Did you see this?
All that extra water from melting glaciers has caused the ocean to sink
"Over the past 20 years, ocean basins have sunk an average of 0.004 inches per year. This means that the ocean is 0.08 inches deeper than it was two decades ago. While this small fragment of an inch may not seem much, oceans cover 70 percent of our planet, making the problem bigger than it seems at first glance."
What we read in the Bible is the same subject!"Over the past 20 years, ocean basins have sunk an average of 0.004 inches per year. This means that the ocean is 0.08 inches deeper than it was two decades ago. While this small fragment of an inch may not seem much, oceans cover 70 percent of our planet, making the problem bigger than it seems at first glance."
2 the fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; 3 and the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of a hundred and fifty days the waters decreased.
4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Here we see that initially, the breaking of the fountains combined with the rain for 40 days brought the volume of water to cover all the earth and even the tallest mountain. (7: 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.)4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 5 And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Over the next period, the waters decreased due to the same mechanism we see in today's global warming. The amount of water, the height to which it reached, we can see from the ice in Greenland still remaining. When the ocean floors were warped down, the earth plates moved and the mountains were created to their present height we have today. This surely was an ongoing process as long as 500 years or longer after the flood.
If you don't accept this is up to you. However, accepting the flood also means that we accept it means. If you look at the scientific evidence, there is evidence for a subtropical arctic and antarctic, this is in line with the Biblical teaching.
Alaska -- once hot enough for palm trees?
Ancient Earth Not as Hot as Previously Thought
Researchers think Antarctica served as animals' interstate
Tiny Fossils Reveal Warm Antarctic Past
So, while evolutionists put this in the deep past, we put these events before the flood.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
I had so many posts to answer that I didn't give yours due credit. Now I am tired. I will bookmark this and come back.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Since I believe the Bible to be God's word, Yes. I expect that word to correspond to our reality and take into account that translations must be compared and verified. Thus we have some unfortunate translations in the KJV and other translations that other translations make up for and correct.
The Nephilim. Yes. Not much I can say to you about that. There have been reports substantiated by newspapers and people about e.g. red haired giants in the US found and with the Smithsonian institute being involved. The evidence has vanished though there seems to be clear reasons for accepting the story.
What I am trying to say is this: the ruler of this world is satan. What would happen to the theory of evolution if the Bible were to be shown accurate on such points as this?! It is then a certainty that even if enough evidence existed worldwide for these Nephilim, as many claim, there would be a powerful effort to hide any and all such evidence.
So, the best I can do is say, I go by the Bible, and if it says Nephilim, then I accept this.
Let me ask you this: How were 1000 to 1600 ton building blocks moved by stone-age people?! There is plenty of evidence for things not being what we are told.
I'll try. I will put a bookmark on your profile so that if I have something for you, I can get back to you. How does that sound?
Well, this is a very good question. First though, God is not a magician, he does things with power and science. But, you are right, he could have used his angels to kill all the ungodly.
There were several reasons for him using the flood to do so.
The high tech and wicked things, the angels who came down to earth had made needed to go so that little trace could be found for us to learn from. All we have are amazing constructions we cannot understand how was made.
God also wanted to create the races, the languages, etc. This meant that he wanted seas and mountains separating us until that job was accomplished. For this he needed the mountain ranges, the seas that kept us apart during our low tech times. Thus the flood was needed.
This permitted the 'march of nations' that he wanted to see happening.
God also wanted to create the races, the languages, etc. This meant that he wanted seas and mountains separating us until that job was accomplished. For this he needed the mountain ranges, the seas that kept us apart during our low tech times. Thus the flood was needed.
This permitted the 'march of nations' that he wanted to see happening.
I see that now.
You mean that most do not believe in a Big Bang? What did go bang? A singularity right?! Singularity = black hole. So, do these explode - is that the common claim for black holes?!
When then the matter antimatter annihilated, it left us with Zero, no universe, back to square one. Oops, we still somehow got a universe. And now the primordial soup of chaotic particles congealed into Hydrogen which later fused into stars, who made heavier elements, and sooner or later, we were born out of chaos. The Chaos god reigns.
Please give me your version.
I am now going to bookmark you for the rest.
Except this isn't where you live. This is the mountain region off the plain of an arid nation and fog doesn't work that way, it would have burned off sooner than that of it even happened at all which is doubtful.
And the birds were released weeks after the rains stopped, and there isn't enough free water in the world to cover 22 feet the top of what would be the clearly visible Ararat range, which the story says Noah was above months after the rains stopped.
The story doesn't make sense as written. And this is just picking at straws to make a square peg fit a round hole.
It did just rain for 40 days or so, arid is not exactly a accurate description at that time. Fog could have been bad for weeks easily, if not months. Large bodies of water tend to do that. It's called lake effect fog. Fog - Wikipedia
An excerpt: @Revoltingest
Evaporation fog or steam fog forms over bodies of water overlain by much colder air; this situation can also lead to steam devilsforming. Lake effect fog is of this type, sometimes in combination with other causes like radiation fog. It tends to differ from most advective fog formed over land in that it is, like lake-effect snow, a convective phenomenon, resulting in fog which can be quite a bit denser, deeper, and looks fluffy from above.
Again I don't think the mountain was covered in water. I think they couldn't see the mountain, for the fog and/or rain, and assumed it was under water. Until they just happened to hit the range. It's never said they landed on the top of the tallest mountain, just that they landed on the mountain range somewhere.
I disagree. I am not trying to make anything fit. There are some holes that can be filled with some practical knowledge that people often overlook or just don't think about. Details that are often overlooked by intellectuals with no real life experiences to draw from.
Or are filled in by believers looking for anything to believe in, even if it makes no sense.
If he was on the mountain range, he would have been able to see the mountain, you can even in a downpour which was long over. It would have taken up more than half of the view. The story states that he couldn't see the mountain until more than a week after he breached on the submerged tip. That's wildly inaccurate to real life.
As are the birds who would just go over fog as they do when crossing bodies of water. The mythical fog wouldn't have lasted for weeks after rain. All this spells either Noah embellishing for story effect or the story just being one of many flood stories worldwide circulated because humans tend to live on flood plains. Not historical.
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
The length the flood is calculated to have lasted from 365 -371 days. That's one heck of a lot of food.
"In days, how long was the Flood? Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:14 give the exact dates of the beginning and end of the Flood, revealing an elapsed time of 12 months and 10 or 11 days, depending upon how one might count the first and last days."
source
And consider
"Louisiana State University and the Humane Society of the United States agree that a horse needs to eat 1 to 2 percent of his body weight in roughage every day. If your horse has free access to plenty of grass, then grass can serve as his forage. If your horse has limited grass then you must make sure his diet is supplemented with hay. The average 1000 pound horse must eat approximately 10 to 20 pounds of hay every day according to LSU.
source
Which mean a pair of horse will need between 7,000 and 14,000 lbs for the trip. At 50lbs per bale, that's 140 to 280 bales of hay, which averages out to 210 bales for the two horses.
Here's what 200 bales of hay looks like. Takes up quite a bit of room. And this is food just for the horses.
.
The length the flood is calculated to have lasted from 365 -371 days. That's one heck of a lot of food.
"In days, how long was the Flood? Genesis 7:11 and Genesis 8:14 give the exact dates of the beginning and end of the Flood, revealing an elapsed time of 12 months and 10 or 11 days, depending upon how one might count the first and last days."
source
And consider
"Louisiana State University and the Humane Society of the United States agree that a horse needs to eat 1 to 2 percent of his body weight in roughage every day. If your horse has free access to plenty of grass, then grass can serve as his forage. If your horse has limited grass then you must make sure his diet is supplemented with hay. The average 1000 pound horse must eat approximately 10 to 20 pounds of hay every day according to LSU.
source
Which mean a pair of horse will need between 7,000 and 14,000 lbs for the trip. At 50lbs per bale, that's 140 to 280 bales of hay, which averages out to 210 bales for the two horses.
Here's what 200 bales of hay looks like. Takes up quite a bit of room. And this is food just for the horses.
.
Note that loose hay would have taken up a lot more space on the Ark.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
You can reject things as you like, just like I reject the nonsense that DNA programming is by the 'chaos god' of evolution. You have the right to your beliefs, as I do to mine.
In the end, your 'god' promises nothing and that is what you'll get; mine promises survival, which is what I hope for. The fittest survives even in this.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Your rejection is only due to you not letting yourself learn. Fear of learning is endemic in creationists.
And others do not have your flaws. They do not need a god. Why do you break the Ninth Commandment by claiming that they have one?
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
Believing the bible is written and interpreted exactly as God intends with no possibility of human error is predestination and indicates that God is in control of all that was, is, and ever shall be... and we are all are an important part of God's plan. No worries.
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