Matthew 24: 6-8 check-list

Jesus is King of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 besides the invisible head of the Christian congregation.
We are all invited to pray for God's kingdom to come (thy kingdom come )
At Revelation 22:20 we are all invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come.
Come and take the action: the action 'stone' of Daniel 2:34-35.
That action is still future. We have Not yet seen the manifestation of that coming action happening as of yet.

URAVIP2ME said:

Jesus is King of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 besides the invisible head of the Christian congregation.
We are all invited to pray for God's kingdom to come (thy kingdom come )
At Revelation 22:20 we are all invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come.
Come and take the action: the action 'stone' of Daniel 2:34-35.

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I have no problem with your Organization’s interpretation of this.

URAVIP2ME said:

That action is still future. We have Not yet seen the manifestation of that coming action happening as of yet.

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Nor do I have a problem with your Organization’s interpretation here. Both "presence" and "manifestation" occur together in the future.

It would have been great if your Organization had stated simply this and left the supposed separation of “presence” and “manifestation” alone.

The problem comes when they say the prior event…his “presence” in 1914... has yet to be “manifested”. You cannot have a “presence” without a “manifestation” of that presence, and you cannot possibly look, note, discern or point to “signs” of his “presence” if it has no manifestation.

Look, if you have a body with an attached head, and that head has absolutely no manifestation, no sign to the body that it is there directing things, then that body is brain dead. It is a classic chicken with the head cut off, roaming aimlessly, and I don't think it would be fair to classify the first Century church in such a manner.

Claiming the head of the Christian body is “invisible” doesn’t solve the problem. It would simply be a visible body with an invisible head. The visible body would still be brain dead.

In fact the body would have been brain dead in the 1st Century, it would be brain dead now, and it wouldn’t come alive until sometime in the future when Christ, the invisible head, decides to “manifest” itself. Only then would the body have ears that hear, a foot that moves, hands that grasp, or a body that knows when, how, and what is food. This comes when the head is manifest, not before.

Such a theological position is untenable and nonsensical. It is double-speak in that it conflicts with other Watchtower doctrines, for example that your Organization was and is guided (another apparent “manifestation” when, according to your theology, there shouldn’t be any) to our present day by Christ. As such, the “two separate events”, in my opinion, lacks cohesiveness or rationale simply because there is no way it could logically or possibly work.

Perhaps I am too harsh or wrong and if so I don’t mean to be. But it might help if you could articulate a clear, concise example where a “presence” came before any manifestation of that same presence. Then give simple examples of how this “presence”, which lacks “manifestation”, might be noted or discerned.

Deeje said:

The three questions pertained to both applications of the prophesy. They asked.... “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

The last part of the question was thought to be imminent....."the conclusion of the system of things" or "the end of the age". Jesus gave them the signs to watch out for.....but he did not tell them "when" they could expect the time of his "presence" ("parousia" does not mean "coming")

The time of his "presence" and the time of his "manifestation" are two separate events.

After the outbreak of the coming "great tribulation" Jesus foretold....“Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

This has not happened as yet....but Jesus has been "present" for the entire time since his enthronement as King in 1914 when the sign of the last days of this present system began. No man witnessed Jesus' enthronement because it was in heaven. Daniel however was given a vision of that future event. (Daniel 7:13-14) The entire book of Daniel is referencing "the time of the end" and Daniel was told to seal up his book as none of its contents would be fully understood until then. (Daniel 12:4)

This also coincides with the time the devil was confined to the earth to carry out his last attack on God's worshipers in this system. (Revelation 12:7-12)
The devil is no longer subtle....since that time all his efforts have been very concentrated, so that now, as we near the finale, his world is completely saturated with immoral sex and violence and demonic entertainment. Everything in this world is designed to enslave humans in one way or another and take them away from God. They have been convinced either that they don't need him...or that he doesn't exist.

As Jesus was leaving this earth for the last time, the apostles asked.... “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time." (Acts 1:6) It is apparent that they thought that the coming of God's kingdom, which they believed involved fleshly Israel and a re-establishment of God's people as a free and independent nation again under their liberator and King....this was foremost was in their minds. (Suffering under Gentile domination was not easy.) This is what the Messianic prophesies indicated.....but their expectations were not fulfilled at that time.

This is one of the reasons why Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah.....they got the timing wrong. But faith would lead Christian worshippers all the way to the 21st century. In this "time of the end" knowledge would become "abundant" and the ones who were open to the operation of God's spirit were granted understanding and insight into many things. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

These 'cleansed and refined themselves' spiritually, removing the stain of false doctrines that had been introduced by an apostate church centuries before. They then got busy 'preaching the gospel of the kingdom' (Matthew 24:14) and making disciples, teaching them the truth as Jesus had instructed them to do. (Matthew 28:19-20) He promised that he would back this work.....and he did. It was to be carried on right to the end.

Knowing where we are in the stream of time is important because Jesus said that his coming would be like "a thief in the night"....unexpected by the majority. Only his true disciples would be prepared like the 5 wise virgins of Jesus parable who had oil in reserve to reignite their lamps when the bridegroom delayed. (Matthew 25:1-13)

Will You “Keep on the Watch”? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I believe that we are living in the outworking of this prophesy.

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I believe you are correct although the presence is manifest to some just not to all. Neither has happened yet. I also wish to add that the appearance of a sign is neither a presence nor a manifestation.

I believe this happened in 1974. The latter part has not happened yet.

I believe there is no evidence to support this.

I believe enthronement in Heaven was pictured as happening in the early days of His departure from earth so I don't know what nonsense one is making of Daniel. That does not negate His enthronement on earth.

I believe this lacks clarity.

I believe that is a negation of scripture that speaks of His return.

I believe there is no evidence of an apostate church previous to our time.

I believe if the reference is to a group who claims to be getting it right then nothing could be farther from the truth.

I do wish you would use the quote system here Muffled. I understand that the color code might work for you, but it is hard to keep going back to see what points you are responding to.

Anyhow.....here goes....

Muffled said:

I believe you are correct although the presence is manifest to some just not to all. Neither has happened yet. I also wish to add that the appearance of a sign is neither a presence nor a manifestation.

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Jesus gave a "sign" in a series of world events that would indicate that he was ruling. His "parousia" (meaning "presence") is confusing to many because two separate events are fused by translating parousia as "coming"

If this "parousia" was a visible event, then no "sign" would be necessary. Jesus' "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" however, is a very visible event since "every eye will see him".

In order for all the features of the sign to be witnessed then, an extended period of time would be needed to discern it.These are "the last days" of the current world system. World events coupled with the personality traits in humans (that Paul enumerated) can be clearly seen.

"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

Muffled said:

I believe this happened in 1974. The latter part has not happened yet.

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Why 1974? We see 1914 as the beginning of the last days. Jesus foretold unprecedented war followed by food shortages and pestilence....1914 saw all those things. The FIRST World War was unprecedented, where 'nations was against nation and kingdom was against kingdom' in every part of the world. This was followed by food shortages as a result of the war and pestilence in the form of the Spanish flu epidemic that wiped out millions of people world wide...more in fact than the war did. These were just "the beginning of pangs of distress"....great earthquakes and an increase in lawlessness were to follow and the quality of love among humans was to grow cold. We have witnessed all these events since 1914. (Read Matthew 24 and Luke 21)

Jesus said...."Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

This is speaking about the coming "great tribulation", which has not occurred yet. (Matthew 24:21) It is quickly followed by the appearance of Jesus with great fanfare and it will mean that "the chosen ones" will be gathered to complete the full compliment of the "bride" class. In the Revelation, Jesus is seen with his 'bride' bringing God's kingdom rulership to the earth....to mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Muffled said:

I believe there is no evidence to support this.

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There is ample evidence if we open our eyes.....or should I say if God opens our eyes. Jesus has been directing the most comprehensive preaching campaign the world has ever seen. It was to continue right up until "the end" of the present system. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Muffled said:

I believe enthronement in Heaven was pictured as happening in the early days of His departure from earth so I don't know what nonsense one is making of Daniel. That does not negate His enthronement on earth.

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According to the prophesy in Psalm 110:1-2, Jesus was to "sit at God's right hand" and to wait for "his enemies to be placed as a stool for his feet." Jesus did not receive his enthronement until that had been accomplished.
His first act as King was to cleanse the heavens, seen by John in Revelation 12:7-12. Only when Jesus received power and authority at that time, did he act.

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Now confined to the earth, satan and his minions have been busy trying to subvert the faith of everyone he possibly can with all manner of lying deception. He is running out of time and so his efforts have intensified.
This would result in the majority of the human race either rejecting God, or attaching themselves to false worship. Satan doesn't care which.

Muffled said:

I believe this lacks clarity.

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I think it is a clear as crystal. The devil is no longer subtle....since that time all his efforts have been very concentrated, so that now, as we near the finale, his world is completely saturated with immoral sex and violence and demonic entertainment. Everything in this world is designed to enslave humans in one way or another and take them away from God. They have been convinced either that they don't need him...or that he doesn't exist.

This is as plain as day IMO.

Muffled said:

I believe that is a negation of scripture that speaks of His return.

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He returns in two ways. First we see that he is ruling only by the signs he gave to show us that he was "present" and directing his disciples in the work that he commanded them to do on a global scale. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) When the "great tribulation" gets started, then we know that this system is in its final moments and Jesus will manifest himself for all to see. It will then be too late to change course. All fates will be sealed at that time. Enough warning has been given and people will have made their choices. Even calling ourselves a Christian will not mean that Jesus accepts us.....we have to be "doing the will of the Father". (Matthew 7:21-23) And we have to be in a spiritually "clean" condition and at peace....."Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. (Read 2 Peter ch 3)

Muffled said:

I believe there is no evidence of an apostate church previous to our time.

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Most people prefer not to see it, especially if they are affiliated with Christendom. Others have been so turned off by it that they have thrown "religion" away altogether.....either way, it is a win for the devil.

If you read the history of Roman Catholicism you will see that it would have been impossible for Christianity to be corrupted if they had stuck to the Bible. But the apostasy was snapping at the heels of the apostles even in the first century.
Speaking of Christ's return Paul said......
"Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god."

Who is this describing?

"And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians ch 2)

The apostles acted as a restraint until the last words of the Christian scriptures were recorded. Then after the last apostle John died, there was no longer a restraint and apostasy flourished under the guise of genuine Christianity. No one knew any different, much the same as the first century Jews were totally indoctrinated with the teachings of the Pharisees. This is why they rejected Jesus as Messiah....it is also the reason why many reject true Christianity today.....they never bother to check to see if what they believe is even true. When you life is at stake, you owe it to yourself to do your homework. Today in the age of information technology, there is no excuse.

Muffled said:

I believe if the reference is to a group who claims to be getting it right then nothing could be farther from the truth.

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Jesus said he would appoint a "faithful slave" to feed his household their "food at the proper time"....and they would do so until his return. So who are these ones who are given this responsibility and when did they receive their assignment? (Matthew 24:45)

Daniel tells us. Just as he told us about the enthronement of Jesus in the heavens at that time, unseen to human eyes (Daniel 7:13-14) so he foretells what would also happen in "the time of the end".

"As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” . . ."Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand." (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

We believe that we are living in "the time of the end" and have been since 1914. The "abundant knowledge" that was to become available at that time was to result in a 'cleansing, whitening and refining' of God's worshippers. As with all cleansing and refining processes, these things would be revealed gradually and the whitening would result as the stains of false teachings were removed.

Those who accepted this cleansing and refining would be granted insight and understanding...but the wicked, or those not heeding this call, would be left in the dark, spiritually speaking.

To me it is as clear as day.....but it is not surprising that the majority reject these things....after all Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) That means that the "many" are on the wrong road and nothing will make them change course.