Start a thread on that and I'll meet you over there to discuss further.
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Jehovah's Witnesses Knocked on My Door
- Thread starter Super Universe
- Start date
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Why? Are you just in the mood for some mud-slinging? I've already told you that God never was Adam and Adam never was God. I doubt you believe differently, so there really isn't anything to discuss. Go find somebody else to pick with.
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken–He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later.
…
…Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. (Journal of Discourses 1:50-51)"
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Man, you are really itching for a fight, aren't you? What is it you actually want from me?
Mikail Hakeem
Member
I had JW knock on my door one day and told them initially I would let them in and listen to what they had to say if they would then take the time to let me give them information afterwards, they agreed..
Although, clearly they had no idea I was Muslim and when I whipped out the Quran their mouths literally dropped. lol
They were just teens and certainly not equipped for a debate.. I was friendly, light on them, and just found the entire thing hilarious.
savagewind,
I believe everything the JW teachers teach, as long as I can prove what they say by research. I do not believe any man’s words, because tha Bible says NOT to believe men, Jeremiah 17:5, Psalms 146:3,4. I trust in what the Bible says, because Jesus said that God’s word is truth, John 17:17,and that it means our everlasting life, to know tha Only True God, and His son that He sent to earth, to take away the sins of all who would believe in him and follow Jesus, John 1:29, 3:16, John 20:311Peter 2:21. For many years before they translated their own Bible, they taught the same truth, using any Bible that a listener owned.
I myself, carry an iPad so when I speak to a person about the Bible, I ask them if they have a personal translation that they like. I then show them everything I say, in their own Bible.
I myself do not see the need for the NWT, because there are over a hundred translations that say almost the same thing. I read regularly in about 50 different Bibles, because sometimes a different translation gives a small difference, which sometimes makes it easier for me to understand the message from God. Then I go to other Bibles and compare what they say again, and I see that it is almost the same idea, but worded differently.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are not told how to study anything, and I myself, do not like the NWT, and I never carry it, and anything I read in the literature, I check it against what the Bible says.
Evidently, you do not understand that there are several different manuscripts, that say slightly different things. There are several, what are called, variant translations, which make the words in the Bible different, but there is NO Bible, where there is a difference in doctrines, where the truth that makes a difference in whether you live or die, by following what it says.
Almost all differences in the different Bibles, are Names one, or numbers, which is easily understood, because in Bibles Times there were several different languages used in most places, and many times names and numbers were the same word. Agape!!!
Katzpur,
Every time I get a chance to talk to a Mormon, I envite them to come in and talk. So far, I have never met a Mormon who knows anything about the Bible. When I ask them a question, they use the excuse that they are neophytes, and when I show them in the Bible an answer, they say, I didn’t know that was in the Bible.
Have you ever considered what the Bible says about having other supposed sacred books, and especially any books that disagree with the Bible???
Consider Galatians 1:6-9, where we are told that anyone teaching another Gospel, other than what is written in The Bible, let him be Accursed. Notice that this is said twice, for emphasis!!!
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
How odd. Several different independent studies concur that Mormons know more about what the Bible says than any other group of Christians. Guess you were just particularly unlucky.
The Bible makes no statement regarding other sacred books. It makes no statement about any books that disagree with the Bible, either. How on earth could it? There was no "Bible" to disagree with at that time. I'm surprised Jehovah's Witnesses think there was.
And you can say it a hundred times for emphasis, if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change anything. If you want to embellish what Galatians 1:6-9 actually says in order to make your point, be my guest. Galatians 1:6-9 makes no mention of the Bible. It mentions only the gospel. They are not one and the same. You may not believe that Mormonism teaches the gospel as it was taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles, but I don't believe the Jehovah's Witnesses do. So maybe you're the accursed ones.
It is a fact that some of the words of the Bible were changed by men. So, you actually do believe Man's words.
Thank you.
Some people use scriptures to prove that all the words that are written are true words of God. @ Timothy 3:16 2 Peter 1:20-21 John 17:17 (compare John 14:6)
But, what about this?
1 Kings 22: 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
For what reason would Jehovah allow words to be changed?
And, because Jehovah allowed lying words they are also "inspired by God". But, they are not the "truth that sets one free".
But, what about this?
1 Kings 22: 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”
For what reason would Jehovah allow words to be changed?
And, because Jehovah allowed lying words they are also "inspired by God". But, they are not the "truth that sets one free".
Katzpur,
Evidently, you must be one of the wise and intellectual ones that Jesus was speaking about at, Luke 10:21, because you cannot be a babe, because your thinking is purely dereism, and you do not seem to be able to understand the Scriptures that I cited.
If you can possibly notice, I use Bible Scripture to show why I believe as I do, but I have not seen even one Bible Scripture cited by you. You seem to be spouting nonsense that someone told you, instead of researching the only place where a person can get Truth about Bible Doctrine.
When you try to reason from your own mind, any person is stymied by Egocentric Predicament, because any person’s reasoning cannot possibly equal what the Bible teaches. What you do is called Doping Out an answer, which never equals Bible truth.
It is not possible for the Bible to mention all the millions of different questions, or problems, so the Bible gives Recursive Principles, that can be used to understand many different questions, that are not covered in Holy Scripture.
Where the Bible mentions another Gospel, it means any other Book or any other teaching that is not from God, and inspired by God. I hope I am wrong, but you seem to read a Scripture with Eisegesis, instead of Exegesis, or you are in the category of a Superficialist.
If you were to reason as God does, as Paul states at Galatians 1:6-9, you would understand that The Book of Mormon is in the class mentioned as Accursed, because no other information, that differs with the Bible is acceptable to God. There is no other Book that is inspired by God, so any book that adds anything to what the Bible says is blasphemy, and is definitely not needed. The Bible tells us that God knows what we need, and He has answered all our questions in His Holy Bible, Matthew 6:8.
The Bible tells us all that it is the heart, that helps us to understand the Bible, Matthew 13:13-15, and that out of the heart we also get all sorts of corrupt reasonings, Mark 7:21-23, Jeremiah 17:9.
The only way anyone can understand the Bible correctly, is one who is willing to change their thinking, when they realize that they have the wrong understanding. Humble prayer is the way to receive the HolySpirit, that searches into even the deep things of God, 1Corinthians 2:10, Romans 12:2, 1Thessalonians 5:21.
All that we teach MUST based on Bible truth, or we are enemies of God, Romans 5:8-11, John 4:23,24, for God says that He will destroy all who do not LOVE the TRUTH, 2Thessalonians 2:8-14.
The Bible warns about being a teacher, unless you are sure you know what the truth is, James 3:1, 2Peter 3:15,16.
savagewind,
I say that I believe no man’s words unless I know that what they said is true, and that pertains to Bible truth.
Are you thinking straight, or are you just trying to find anything to argue about?
The fact is; none of the words we read are actually God’s words, because He had His people write in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.
It is the message from God that we want to transmit accurately.
If you change one word of God’s Holy Bible, if done on purpose, you could be sinning against The Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:32, because it was the Holy Spirit that guided men as they wrote tha Bible, 2Peter 1:20,21, 2Timothy 3:16,17, 2Peter 3:15,16.
You should probably show us where in the Bible this nonsense is being taught.
So much to say..........so little time.
What does the Bible say about perfection in a person? I ask because when anyone transmitted any word of God accurately he would have had to have been perfect at that time.
And, where, oh where! did you learn that changing God's Word is only a sin if it is done on purpose?
It is obvious that a tenet of the Jehovah's Witnesses is that it is a sin to obey false words of God. The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses has spent many billions of hours preaching to the World to repent from their belief of The Trinity and hellfire. Then, someone comes on The Forum and says, "it is a sin to change the words of God if it is done on purpose". I am warning you that in your belief system you have two ideas that do not belong together.
Do you want me to tell you what they are?
Do you want me to tell you what they are?
I am asking a Jehovah's Witness. What does the Bible say about perfection?
Now, we know it says in many ways and in many places that it is not possible in the world that a person can be perfect. And we know that every human is in the world. Don't we? Then, they say (and it is not just JWs) that God will have only perfect words for us. Everyone knows that those words were transmitted by imperfect people. Do you see the problem? @12jtartar
Is it true? "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one."
This one? "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."
Now, we know it says in many ways and in many places that it is not possible in the world that a person can be perfect. And we know that every human is in the world. Don't we? Then, they say (and it is not just JWs) that God will have only perfect words for us. Everyone knows that those words were transmitted by imperfect people. Do you see the problem? @12jtartar
Is it true? "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one."
This one? "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."
@12jtartar Are you not going to answer the question?
How can purpose matter for life and death?
You say that changing words of God is a sin if it is done on purpose.
You actually know that at least one scripture was changed (and probably on purpose, but we don't know) enough to read into it the wrong meaning. John 1:1
So, it was changed, which just goes to prove that the words CAN BE changed.
If it wasn't done on purpose how is following the changed meaning a sin, according to YOU? Is it a sin to read the Bible the wrong way? Or not?
How can purpose matter for life and death?
You say that changing words of God is a sin if it is done on purpose.
You actually know that at least one scripture was changed (and probably on purpose, but we don't know) enough to read into it the wrong meaning. John 1:1
So, it was changed, which just goes to prove that the words CAN BE changed.
If it wasn't done on purpose how is following the changed meaning a sin, according to YOU? Is it a sin to read the Bible the wrong way? Or not?
So, I don't forget the two conflicting ideas that the Jehovah's Witnesses are being taught to assume I shall tell you @12jtartar
It is wrong to accept wrong words as true words if it is done on purpose, but the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses have their people warning everyone that if they don't repent of their wrong ideas about God they can't be found innocent when Jesus comes to judge them.
So, to change the words isn't a sin (if it is not done on purpose) but to trust those changed words is a sin whether the person knows it or not.
A person who does not know he changed the words enough to change the meaning is innocent.
But, everyone who puts faith in the wrong meaning is guilty, according to what is written. I guess.
It is wrong to accept wrong words as true words if it is done on purpose, but the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses have their people warning everyone that if they don't repent of their wrong ideas about God they can't be found innocent when Jesus comes to judge them.
So, to change the words isn't a sin (if it is not done on purpose) but to trust those changed words is a sin whether the person knows it or not.
A person who does not know he changed the words enough to change the meaning is innocent.
But, everyone who puts faith in the wrong meaning is guilty, according to what is written. I guess.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don’t know how wise I am, but I do know that God gave me both an intellect and some good common sense. I suspect He intended that I use them both. I actually do understand the scriptures you cited. It appears I just don’t resort to twisting them to fit my own personal beliefs. And because I don’t agree with you as to how they should be interpreted you have jumped to the conclusion that you’re right and I’m wrong. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinions. You are not, however, entitled to present them as facts.
That’s not what you did at all. You cited a few verses of scripture and told me how they should be understood. And on top of that, you had the nerve to tell me that I was “spouting nonsense that someone told [me].” And you obviously came to your conclusions as to the meaning of the verses you cited completely independently of your beloved “Watchtower,” right?
Wow! Lot’s of big words there! I’m impressed.
Says who? When the Bible mentions another gospel, it means teachings other than those of Jesus Christ. The Bible itself contains four separate gospel accounts, four individual books (or “Books,” if you prefer, since you apparently see that word as requiring a capital letter), all of which have much in common in that they describe many of the same events. No two of them are exactly the same, though. Each one includes a few teachings that are not mentioned in the others. That does not mean that they are “different gospels.”
You certainly are into labels, aren’t you? Let’s move on to the topic at hand and dispense with the psychoanalysis.
No, if I were to reason as you do, I would come to the same conclusions you have come to. So, what, exactly does Galatians 1:6-9 say? It says:
“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
Mormons, like Jehovah’s Witnesses, believe that Paul’s predictions of a great apostasy did, in fact, come to fruition. We believe that false doctrines were starting to creep into the infant Church at a very early date. It was obviously happening, even as Paul wrote. You need not waste your time trying to convince me of this.
What? How on earth can you ascertain such a thing? Never once in the Bible did God say, “I’m done talking now.” When you dismiss, out of hand, the mere possibility that not all of God’s interactions with mankind are found exclusively in the Bible, you are in effect telling God, “Thanks, but no thanks. You had your turn. We’ve got our Bible. You have nothing more to tell us that could possibly be of use to us.”
I know the Jehovah’s Witnesses study the Bible inside and out. But has no one ever even told you how the Bible came to exist in the first place, and how vastly different today’s canon is than it was in the second century or the eighth century or the twelfth century? Do you have any idea at all how many “Books” are mentioned in the Bible and were clearly thought of by its writers as “scripture” but which are, in fact, completely absent from the Bible? Have you never stopped to consider the fact that it was “the Whore of Babylon,” the apostates that you are so insistent upon distancing yourself from who are responsible for preserving and transcribing the “Book” you believe to contain everything we need to know?
I almost wonder if this was a typo, as Matthew 6:8 says absolutely nothing about the Bible. It says, “Be not ye therefore like unto them [i.e. the heathens referred to in verse 7]: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.”
If I understand you correctly here, you are saying that it is with our hearts that we can understand the Bible, but that we can also be misled by what we believe our hearts are telling us. I couldn’t agree more.
I concur completely. God reveals truth to us by the Spirit. And when we receive His truth, we must embrace it and allow it to transform us, enabling us to know what is good in God’s eyes.
Roman 5:8-11 doesn’t say that at all! Romans 5:8-11 says:
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.”
And John 4:23-24 says:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Are you serious? Those passages speak specifically of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice on our behalf. It teaches that we may be reconciled to God through Christ’s Atonement and find joy in Him, and of worshipping God in spirit and truth. It doesn’t even remotely say what you are claiming it says!
I’d agree with that. At least that’s the essence of that passage. You will be happy to know, though, that I do very deeply love the truth, and do not for one split second have any doubts about my relationship with my Savior or with my Father in Heaven.
The Bible warns about being a teacher, unless you are sure you know what the truth is, James 3:1, 2Peter 3:15,16.[/quote]It may well do, but it centainly doesn’t in these passages.
I am obsessing for an answer, please. @12jtartar
If it isn't the truth that to change the words of scripture but not on purpose isn't a sin, then I think we need to see a correction. It seems that according to your brother or you, I forget, to be willing to correct error proves allegiance with Jehovah.
You have posted that it is a sin to change the words of scripture if it is done on purpose. Applying logic to that quote means that to do it by mistake isn't a sin.
Is it a sin to change the words or the meaning of the words whether on purpose or by mistake or only on purpose?
If it isn't the truth that to change the words of scripture but not on purpose isn't a sin, then I think we need to see a correction. It seems that according to your brother or you, I forget, to be willing to correct error proves allegiance with Jehovah.
You have posted that it is a sin to change the words of scripture if it is done on purpose. Applying logic to that quote means that to do it by mistake isn't a sin.
Is it a sin to change the words or the meaning of the words whether on purpose or by mistake or only on purpose?