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Should YouTube take down Catholic videos desecrating the Eucharist? The church demands them gone.

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Here’s an example of the sort of power and influence I’m talking about: here in Canada, many taxpayer-funded hospitals are affiliated with the Catholic Church. Because of this, they refuse to give proper reproductive or end-of-life care.
The Catholic Church makes no secret of its moral positions. Should the Canadian government see fit to fund Catholic hospitals anyway then that's their prerogative. If you don't like that then take it up with your government, not me. Catholicism will never budge on the sanctity of human life in all its stages.

If you suddenly fall ill and get taken to the hospital in an ambulance, it’s basically a role of the dice whether you get taken to a “Catholic” hospital or a non-religious one. The patient generally has no choice in the matter. Depending on their condition, they may not be able to be transferred to a different hospital for medical reason.

It’s happened many times here in Ontario that a patient at the end of their life who wanted to limit their own suffering was forced to live in pain for several more weeks than they needed to satisfy the dictates of a religion they don’t believe in and never chose to live under. If this was to happen to one of my loved ones, I might think that desecrating a host would be an appropriate way to show the church that did this to them what I thought of it.
Secular governments must calculate that Catholic hospitals are an overall benefit if they're willing to fund them. Alternately, those Catholic hospitals could stop existing thus limiting the options a whole lot more. Should people die because the public system lacks the infrastructure to cope at least none of those unfortunates will have been exposed to Catholic morality.

The point however is that it is tyrannical to insist that faithful Catholic medial practitioners are obligated to violate their consciences and provide 'treatments' that in Catholic eyes either amount to murder in the case of abortion or suicide in the case euthanasia. Just because I treat you for a medical problem doesn't mean you can demand that I help you take your own life. I'd go to jail before committing such mortal sin.

Kick and scream all you want, my obligation to keep my conscience clear before God trumps any mandate of any government, even if it means martyrdom. Christianity really is that demanding.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I am 100% aware of this. It is still symbolism in that the wafer does not actually become flesh. Realistically, at best it represents the body of Jesus.
What you are saying is of course the traditional protestant view, that it's only symbolic. The Catholic, the Orthodox who knows the doctrine would disagree.

No, my views - even at that age - on the eucharist was not one of the reasons I left Christianity.
I can understand that. My apologies, I realize my comment was somewhat rude.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
While understandably upsetting for Catholics.

Should the Catholic Church dictate what should be removed from social media like YouTube based on its policy of hate and bigotry?

AMERICA NEEDS FATIMA
IMO, the right to free speech should be observed - in areas that do not violate sexually small children, and other such places. Thus, some sensor ship is needed - obviously, but not on articles of faith, be this religious faith or scientific (?) faith. If a person wants to be even a satanist, witch, or any other kind of faith, they should have free speech as long as what is obviously wicked is avoided. (public sacrifices of living animals or humans)

I hope I worded the above somewhat correctly.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Talk about a false equivalency!

Burning a piece of bread = the same as book burning.

Who knew making toast in the morning would make Hitler so proud! :eek:
Now look who's going over the top, bringing in a comparison to Hitler to ignore the point.

Indeed it's shameful to see a Bible burn. But at the end of the day it's just paper, ink, glue, and leather. Still not worth letting someone have power over you, by letting them know they can effect you by burning it.
I agree, but my point is about what people think is sacred. To turn everything sacred as worship and idolatry is of course an interesting view in itself.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Now look who's going over the top, bringing in a comparison to Hitler to ignore the point.


I agree, but my point is about what people think is sacred. To turn everything sacred as worship and idolatry is of course an interesting view in itself.

Not everything sacred is Idolatry. It's in how you treat it that makes the difference, it's nuanced to say the least.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The Catholic Church makes no secret of its moral positions. Should the Canadian government see fit to fund Catholic hospitals anyway then that's their prerogative. If you don't like that then take it up with your government, not me. Catholicism will never budge on the sanctity of human life in all its stages.
Opposition to euthanasia has nothing to do with the sanctity of human life.

Secular governments must calculate that Catholic hospitals are an overall benefit if they're willing to fund them.
Or that it wouldn’t be politically expedient to get rid of them, despite the problems with them.

Alternately, those Catholic hospitals could stop existing thus limiting the options a whole lot more. Should people die because the public system lacks the infrastructure to cope at least none of those unfortunates will have been exposed to Catholic morality.
Actually, there have been cases - a few, but some - where a secular health network takes over a Catholic hospital. It’s just that the Catholic hospital’s board has to be willing.

It’s not a question of infrastructure. The provincial government is continually doing health care accommodation reviews and adding capacity and services where it’s needed; it’s just that these reviews take into account the Catholic hospitals. The fact that a Catholic hospital has some number of beds means that they won’t provide that number of beds somewhere else.

The point however is that it is tyrannical to insist that faithful Catholic medial practitioners are obligated to violate their consciences and provide 'treatments' that in Catholic eyes either amount to murder in the case of abortion or suicide in the case euthanasia. Just because I treat you for a medical problem doesn't mean you can demand that I help you take your own life. I'd go to jail before committing such mortal sin.
It’s not tyrannical to require doctors and hospitals to behave ethically.

Virtually every medical association’s code of ethics expresses two key principles (though the wording can vary):

- the needs of the patient come first.
- medical professionals have the duty to follow an established standard of care.

In Canada, euthanasia is legal and is part of that established standard of care of several medical fields. If a doctor isn’t willing to abide by the standard of care for their field, they need to find a new field.

If a doctor - or a hospital - makes the needs of the patient secondary to their own religious tenets, then they have no business being in the medical profession at all.

Kick and scream all you want, my obligation to keep my conscience clear before God trumps any mandate of any government, even if it means martyrdom. Christianity really is that demanding.
No Christian denomination demands that its adherents practice medicine unethically. If your religious beliefs don’t allow you to do a proper job when the lives and well-being of people who don’t share your beliefs are on the line, find another career. The religious beliefs of a medical professional are not a good reason to give a patient substandard care.

... and if your church continues to make it so that people have no choice but to receive substandard care, I’ll express my anger over this by any legal means that I damn well choose.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Ah. Sorry - I misread your post.


You’ve got a pretty wonky understanding of fraud there. Fraud involves taking money or things of value under false pretenses. What do you think he took, exactly?

He lied to gain entrance to the Temple. Isn't that 'false pretenses?" He did so for the express purpose of filming the ceremonies, which he published on YouTube. Those videos have been 'monetized,' that is, he is getting income from them.

That is taking money under false pretenses, I think.


I hope you don’t mind if I take your legal opinions with a grain of salt.

Go right ahead. I'm a retired English teacher, not a lawyer. However, I do know a couple who have told me that they would dearly love to be in on a lawsuit here.

........but the church has not, and probably will not, sue.


And if anyone actually stole them, I agree that this is wrong. However, if the hosts were freely given to the makers of the videos - even if given by a priest who assumed that the hosts would be immediately eaten - then the hosts belong to them.

What those folks making the video about the host did may or may not have been legal, but either way it was very wrong. It's wrong, it's rude, it's hateful and I personally wouldn't want to associate with them in any way. If what they did was legal and the only thing they are guilty of is being complete morons, ignoramuses and utterly contemptible, then they have the right to do that.

....and I have the right to call them morons, ignoramuses and utterly contemptible.

NEVER confuse 'legal' with 'moral,' or 'ethically right." The two concepts are entirely different.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
What you are saying is of course the traditional protestant view, that it's only symbolic.
I'm sure it mirrors it, but really it would just be the non-Catholic view, to all those who see that wafer does not literally change to flesh after a blessing.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
He lied to gain entrance to the Temple. Isn't that 'false pretenses?" He did so for the express purpose of filming the ceremonies, which he published on YouTube. Those videos have been 'monetized,' that is, he is getting income from them.

That is taking money under false pretenses, I think.
Despite the fact that no money is being taken? Think that one through again.

What those folks making the video about the host did may or may not have been legal, but either way it was very wrong. It's wrong, it's rude, it's hateful and I personally wouldn't want to associate with them in any way. If what they did was legal and the only thing they are guilty of is being complete morons, ignoramuses and utterly contemptible, then they have the right to do that.

....and I have the right to call them morons, ignoramuses and utterly contemptible.

NEVER confuse 'legal' with 'moral,' or 'ethically right." The two concepts are entirely different.
It seems to me that this is what you’re doing: you find what they’re doing distasteful and therefore immoral and therefore illegal.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
A question for Catholics.

Assuming the wafers are not the real body of Christ at the moment of manufacture or sale, when and how do they become the real body of Christ?

.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I'm sure it mirrors it, but really it would just be the non-Catholic view, to all those who see that wafer does not literally change to flesh after a blessing.
Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran who follow their teachings at least believe that the wafer changes on consecration are not symbolic.

Assuming the wafers are not the real body of Christ at the moment of manufacture or sale, when and how do they become the real body of Christ?
Although I'm not Catholic, I can guess they only believe it to change on consecration by the priest.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran who follow their teachings at least believe that the wafer changes on consecration are not symbolic.


Although I'm not Catholic, I can guess they only believe it to change on consecration by the priest.
Looking into it a bit further, I found you're absolutely right. Thanks for the suggestion.

.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran who follow their teachings at least believe that the wafer changes on consecration are not symbolic.
We're still running into that issue of "belief". It's like the Wiccan's "drawing down the moon" thing; the priestess calls down the goddess and "becomes" the goddess. For intent of their ritual she's now a human stand-in of the deity. But she's not; not really--it's symbolism in that she's at most a mouthpiece, and quite literally not a deity standing amongst mortals. Belief and doctrine can say all it wants, but unless something is actually what it is held to be, it's a symbol.

Although I'm not Catholic, I can guess they only believe it to change on consecration by the priest.
Correct, the principle of transubstantiation. A principle which faces physical issue, as it states that the bread literally becomes flesh--yet it still feels and tastes like bread.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
Despite the fact that no money is being taken? Think that one through again.

How is that different from, say, a thief selling the stuff he stole on the street and getting money that way? Does he get a pass because he didn't steal the money...just the thing he sold to get the money?

Or....

While "peeping tom" laws vary from state to state, pretty much all of them have problems with folks who barge into places and take pictures of people with out their consent, especially when they have an 'expectation of privacy.' People in LDS temples, having obtained recommends honestly and knowing that the rules of the place say 'no cameras,' have an expectation of privacy there. At least, that's what my research is telling me. However, this thread is about the video portraying the host being desecrated, and that is a whole different matter.

As I said, I haven't seen the video and do not intend to. However, the very idea that there are people who will DO that sort of thing just to show their contempt for the beliefs of others makes me cringe. It's probably not against the law, what they did, but it IS against any moral or ethical code I want to be associated with. People who do that are people who are, frankly, so far beneath contempt that if there WERE a law that allowed it, stocks in the middle of the town square would be appropriate.

Complete with boxes of rotten fruit for passers-by to throw at them.

However, there isn't such a law, and that's probably a good thing. Rotten fruit would be far more useful in a compost pile.


It seems to me that this is what you’re doing: you find what they’re doing distasteful and therefore immoral and therefore illegal.

I find it illegal because...at least as far as the LDS temple ceremony video taper is concerned, I believe it is. So, I think, do many states. However, that is absolutely beside the point.

What is bemusing to me here is that you are accusing me of...'there outabealaw' thinking when I have been taking the exact opposite position. In the case of the desecrated host, I have no clue if there was a law broken. Certainly simply making the movie isn't breaking a law, and as I wrote, laws regarding free speech (whether in the US Constitution or elsewhere) aren't about protecting the speech of those with whom we agree. It's about protecting the speech of those with whom we DON'T.

For instance...had this guy with the Temple Ceremony video taken the ceremony script (which can be found online) and filmed actors portraying it...and done so outside the temple, I don't think there would have been any law broken (well, maybe copyright but perhaps not even then). It is the fact that he entered the temple fraudulently, secretly filmed people without their knowledge or consent, and then plastered THAT on the internet (and is getting paid for it) that makes the legality of his actions dicey.

So unless the guys desecrating the host stole it, I honestly can't see where they broke a law...but then again, I haven't seen, and don't intend to see, that video so I can't really speak to that.

I have also told you that there is a huge difference between 'distasteful and immoral,' and 'legal.'

There are MANY distasteful and immoral things that are perfectly legal.

...........and should remain so.

There are even some distasteful and immoral things that are NOT legal that should be made so, IMO.

Legality is about protecting the culture from the actions of people who may harm it. It's not about 'sin.'
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
We're still running into that issue of "belief". It's like the Wiccan's "drawing down the moon" thing; the priestess calls down the goddess and "becomes" the goddess. For intent of their ritual she's now a human stand-in of the deity. But she's not; not really--it's symbolism in that she's at most a mouthpiece, and quite literally not a deity standing amongst mortals. Belief and doctrine can say all it wants, but unless something is actually what it is held to be, it's a symbol.
What else could it be though. If a Wiccan believes the priestess is symbolically a symbolic goddess without any reality, it's quite different from a vodoun that believes they are actually "ridden" and controlled by a true and existing presence.

Correct, the principle of transubstantiation. A principle which faces physical issue, as it states that the bread literally becomes flesh--yet it still feels and tastes like bread.
For the believer in transubstantiation as of the traditional types of Christianity, it may be bread but the bread is also 100% flesh of Jesus. For the Lutheran it is less so, they believe that the consecrated hosts are sort of "wrapped up" in something that can be called that. For those Christians who believe it's a symbolic act of commemoration, the bread is of course nothing special. They are just carrying out ritual in a symbolic way.
 

dianaiad

Well-Known Member
We're still running into that issue of "belief". It's like the Wiccan's "drawing down the moon" thing; the priestess calls down the goddess and "becomes" the goddess. For intent of their ritual she's now a human stand-in of the deity. But she's not; not really--it's symbolism in that she's at most a mouthpiece, and quite literally not a deity standing amongst mortals. Belief and doctrine can say all it wants, but unless something is actually what it is held to be, it's a symbol.

To you and me, yes, it's a symbol.

To those who believe in it, it's not a symbol. It is very real, and we don't get to tell them differently. That goes for Wiccans 'calling down the moon,' or Catholics and transubstantiation, or.....

Catholics are quite aware of the difference between symbolism and what they believe happens with transubstantiation. Catholics have a LOT of symbols, and use them all the time. They believe that what happens with the host is different, and here's the thing: it's what they believe that counts. YOU can insist that the host is a 'symbol,' rather than being literally the body of Christ, and I can believe that it is a symbol, but we don't get to insist that our opinion is fact for Catholics any more than Catholics can insist that WE accept transubstantiation as real in our own belief systems.

Transubstantiation is a mystery. Perhaps I should write that "Mystery," as in...something happens that cannot be explained or measured by scientific means. Something that is a part of faith.

I don't believe in it...but Catholics do and for them it is very much NOT a symbol. I think we should respect that at least as much as we expect others to respect our points of view and beliefs.


Correct, the principle of transubstantiation. A principle which faces physical issue, as it states that the bread literally becomes flesh--yet it still feels and tastes like bread.

On one level, you are quite correct. However, on another you absolutely are not. Remember: things are true that are not logical, and not all logical things are true. This is a mystery in the doctrinal sense of the word. (shrug)

.........and that's fine by me.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Opposition to euthanasia has nothing to do with the sanctity of human life.
Yes it does. In the Catholic view one has no right to take human life. Not even one's own.

Or that it wouldn’t be politically expedient to get rid of them, despite the problems with them.
I reject you premise that Catholic institutions operating under Catholic ethics are a problem.

It’s not tyrannical to require doctors and hospitals to behave ethically.
Indeed, behaving ethically is an obligation on every human being on pain of the immortal soul. Abortion and euthanasia are evils. A society that peddles death as a 'solution' is a society that has become morally derelict.

No Christian denomination demands that its adherents practice medicine unethically. If your religious beliefs don’t allow you to do a proper job when the lives and well-being of people who don’t share your beliefs are on the line, find another career. The religious beliefs of a medical professional are not a good reason to give a patient substandard care.
Catholicism doesn't demand medicine be practiced unethically. It demands the contrary. It is rather those who have darkened their intellects and numbed their consciences by convincing themselves that the killing of vulnerable human beings under the guise of a 'medical care' or 'choice' or any other other self-serving slogan of false compassion is in any way ethical are the ones who have given themselves over to moral insanity. As you do mine, I likewise utterly repudiate your 'ethics'.

But don't worry, in the shortish term you'll get what you want. I well expect that as the current direction of things continues, Christians (who have not sold out to secular society's embrace of moral bankruptcy) will be progressively barred from meaningful participation in society.

and if your church continues to make it so that people have no choice but to receive substandard care, I’ll express my anger over this by any legal means that I damn well choose.
Of course, you wouldn't be the first set yourself up in opposition to the Church. Although heed well no matter how dire it may get for the Church it will never be vanquished. Not by you, or by all the concerted efforts of all the governments of the world. Matthew 16:18-19

Nations and empires have come and gone and yet the Gospel remains. I understand fully that you (as do millions of others now and since the Church's inception) oppose true Christianity and everything it stands for. And even if faithful Christians are reduced to a few pockets around the world driven into the caves and catacombs, the Church will nevertheless remain until the end of time. The current incantation of the nation state of Canada and its 'enlightened' ethics on the other hand, will one day be nothing but a mention in the history books. (Assuming the apocalypse doesn't happen anytime soon... Who knows?).:shrug:

I believe this because I have utter confidence that Christ is the truth.
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Should the Catholic Church dictate what should be removed from social media like YouTube based on its policy of hate and bigotry?
Part of me says it's offensive in the same way tactless religious art is or burning sacred texts. On the other hand, part of me says that idolatry involves anything (sacred text, statue, cracker) being confused for God, unless your religion doesn't have an idolatry is a sin concept, in which case we're cool. :)

It depends. Does YouTube allow hate speech?
Ever heard the story of the "kids' videos" that are actually porn? Youtube doesn't exactly police their videos. I don't care what their policy says.

Take the Japanese Logan Paul suicide vid, or that one, or any number of such 'expressions'.
Logan Paul disrespected actual people. This guy is torching a cracker, which has no feelings at any stage in its "life".

It's more offensive to Catholics than burning a Qur'an or drawing the Prophet Muhammad would be to Muslims.
And yet many Christians are quick to tell Muslims to "get over" the cartoon thing.

If I don't like something I see, I just don't watch it. I am not a crusader of censorship for any grown adult.
I think the problem is that these people WANT to see it and possibly get off on it, but they remember they're not SUPPOSED to like it, so they complain about it and want such "temptation" to be taken down.

Imagine if the vid depicted a person placing a beef sandwich on a Hindu shrine. Sure, it may not be beef in the sandwich but why is he doing it and for what purpose? It would be an arrogant, infantile and malicious act, done just for the spite of it.
The correct response to a childish act is to give it not a second's thought. Just trash the burger, clean the statue (or have THEM clean it), and move on with your day. By freaking, they get way more credibility than they deserve.

Hmmmmm.... I wonder... does that apply to seeing babies, through exrays, aborted by pulling the parts out, piece by piece?
If it is a medical video, yes, it should be there. If it's scare-mongering to terrify women who already going through more than any man will regarding the issue, then no.

That's the thing. If you don't want to watch something that is personally offensive, then don't watch it. I like that on youtube, I can watch the burning of Qurans, the burning of Torah scrolls, the burning of the American Flag, as I please. The most important thing to me is that people only burn their OWN property, not someone else's.
Yes, we wouldn't want to be like Jesus, who had no problems vandalizing property that didn't belong to him. :)

It's not idolatry because the person present in the Host is Jesus Himself.
True, but let's just agree that the bible is less than consistent when it comes to sacred items.

Do you think the Catholics worship wafers?
Musing Bassist insists the wafer is ACTUALLY Jesus, who is ACTUALLY God. As God is worshiped, then the wafer must be as well.

A sense of religious superiority? A display to their gods and beliefs of loyalty and defiance to ideological rivals? Shock factor to make a point? All of the above?
Desecrating "idols" is a HUGE thing in the bible and is actively encouraged.

Unless the bible says God commanded an idol, such as various figures (angels, snakes, etc). Then, it's "holy".

Catholicism will never budge on the sanctity of human life in all its stages.
Unless you're a childbearing age woman, apparently.

Should people die because the public system lacks the infrastructure to cope at least none of those unfortunates will have been exposed to Catholic morality.
People are dying because Catholic hospitals won't do their jobs.

Christianity really is that demanding.
You would die over a wafer? To think you must feel life is so worthless that you can just throw it away for any slight.

Yes it does. In the Catholic view one has no right to take human life. Not even one's own.
Unless they're in the middle of a miscarriage, and then it's "well, we can't abort the dead fetus".

Abortion and euthanasia are evils.
Abortion isn't banned in the bible and I have seen far too many people suffer because relatives can't admit life is finite.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
What else could it be though.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but it could also be ritual practice (like a prayer or blessing,) something that serves a function, definitely happens, and can be observed by believer and non-believer alike. In juxtaposition, Wiccans believe that when drawn down, the priestess is the goddess. It's comparable to a Vodoun horsing their Iwa. They are beliefs, held to be fact, but observable and factually symbolic.

For the believer in transubstantiation as of the traditional types of Christianity, it may be bread but the bread is also 100% flesh of Jesus.
Compounded by denial of cannibalistic practice. It's very much a case of "you can't have your Jesus and eat him too". Far better, I'd say, to simply believe in a "holy presence" on the bread as Lutherans do.

To those who believe in it, it's not a symbol. It is very real, and we don't get to tell them differently.
Oh, I beg to differ. See, in years past I've played peacemaker, played nice, and even gone to bat for Catholics many times, out of love for my family. It's always been reciprocated with telling me what my beliefs are (to them), denial of my beliefs and an assumed insistence that I'm an atheist, endless efforts to "show the error" of my beliefs, etc. If Catholics can tell me differently about my beliefs, then they deserve the same treatment. I will ever strive to be civil, but I'm no longer going to call a donkey a warhorse just for the ego of others.

So far as "mysteries" go, that's all well and fine but I see it as just blind faith. Accepting something without understanding or reason - and faith does not necessitate such ignorance of reason. And this whole issue derives from a video of someone burning a wafer, and the question of "is it offensive or not?" If it's just a wafer - unconsecrated and plain - what's the offense? And further, as I pointed out earlier, why is their outcry any more pressing or valid, when there are videos out there of blatant offense against other religions with nary a grunt of outrage?
 
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