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What is the baptism by fire? (Matthew 3:11)

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
And what is his name? As for the OT having "no knowledge", Yeshua is the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13) & (John 1:14), for which the "Word" is the Law and the prophets. Yeshua said the "kingdom of heaven" "from the time of John the Baptist until now"... "suffers violence" (Matthew 11:12). The followers of Paul have attempted to make that "Word" "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13). Paul's followers for the most part, do not think they need to produce "good fruit", and that they are already "saved", and they are released from the Law (Roman 7:6). Yeshua disagrees (Matthew 7:19-23). The axe is at the foot of the trees that do not produce good fruit. As for who are sons of God, that would be those who do the will of God (Matthew 12:50)

I don't see where the Word is the Law and the prophets (OT) anywhere. Could you cite that verse?

In the mean time:

John 1:
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The OT fathers neither knew the Father nor the Holy Spirit. Which is why they died.

John 6:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Unless you wish to see bread as leaven rather than (spiritual) knowledge. To "eat Christs body" is spiritual, not cannibalistic as the Jews saw.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Zechariah 13:7 'strike the Shepherd', same as we find Yeshua saying in Matthew 26:31... So the 2/3 were the flock for slaughter back at the 2nd temple destruction in Zechariah 13:8, and then one third remain for the fire baptism later in Zechariah 13:9.

In my opinion. :innocent:

Matthew 26:31 refers to Peter's denying Yeshua 3 times (Matthew 26:33-34), and the scattering of the flock. The crushing of Judah in 70 AD was not a refining as silver moment. It was a "judgment" moment (Hosea 5:9- 6:2). After two days/ 2000 years, "He will revive us", .. when "they acknowledge their guilt. That acknowledgement comes after the "awesome day of the LORD", which is "behind the door" (Matthew 24:33).
I don't see where the Word is the Law and the prophets (OT) anywhere. Could you cite that verse?

In the mean time:

John 1:
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The OT fathers neither knew the Father nor the Holy Spirit. Which is why they died.

John 6:
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Unless you wish to see bread as leaven rather than (spiritual) knowledge. To "eat Christs body" is spiritual, not cannibalistic as the Jews saw.


Matthew 5:17, ”Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill”. And it has yet to be fulfilled.

John 1:14, “The Word became flesh”. What do you think the “Word” is in this instance?

“Everyone will die for his own iniquity” (Jeremiah 31:30), including you, despite any promise the false prophet Paul may have given you. As for the OT fathers, Abraham met the LORD.

New American Standard Bible Genesis 18:1
Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

As for the bread of life, taken without leaven, such as the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, that would be the “Word” of God, which must be eaten without “leaven”. You have made the “Word” “obsolete” (Hebrews 8:13), and have substituted the leaven, the word of the Pharisee Paul in its stead. And of course you will die, despite the fact that the devil and his son has told you that just because you now determine what is evil from good (Romans 7:6), “you surely shall not die” (Genesis 3:4). Anything not in align with the Law and the testimonies, is of the darkness (Isaiah 8:20). The Catholics think they eat the “body of Christ”, yet inevitably, they always die.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Fire is what will "refine" the "little ones" (Zechariah 13:7-9). One third will be brought through the fire and be refined. 2/3 will perish in the fire. The 6th angel will kill one third of mankind with fire, brimstone, and smoke (Revelation 9:18).
Yes... as I said before, there are many application for "fire" and all would be correct... but the verse mentioned in Matthew has the applicaation of the Baptism of dunamis that empowers people to operate in the gifts of the Spirit.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The baptism with fire is not the same as baptism with holy spirit. The fiery baptism could not be, as some say, the tongues of fire at Pentecost, for the disciples there were not immersed in fire. Y

Actually, you are completely wrong. They were immersed in fire as "baptism" means immersion.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The application is quite clear. Watchtower had it wrong.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
What is baptism by fire? (Matthew 3:11)
There are generally two ways of doing things, the easy way, and the hard way. Since the “many” have chosen the way to “destruction”, and follow the “false prophets” (Matthew 7:13-15), instead of the way to “life” (Matthew 7:14), measures will be taken. In order to “refine” the sheep, they are passed “through the fire” (Zechariah 13:7-9). Not to worry though, for only “two parts in it will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it”. This is in respect to the “little ones”. The nations on the other hand, will also pass through the fire (Revelation 9:18), and the unrepentant survivors will end up where there is “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:42) & (Matthew 24:51). What are they unrepentant about? (Revelation 9:21).

Pray not to be tested. The Holy Spirit is on the one hand and the fire is on the other. They are not the same thing. The trees that don't bear fruit are thrown in the fire (Matthew 3:10). Pray not to be tested.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Matthew 26:31 refers to Peter's denying Yeshua 3 times (Matthew 26:33-34), and the scattering of the flock. The crushing of Judah in 70 AD was not a refining as silver moment. It was a "judgment" moment (Hosea 5:9- 6:2). After two days/ 2000 years, "He will revive us", .. when "they acknowledge their guilt. That acknowledgement comes after the "awesome day of the LORD", which is "behind the door" (Matthew 24:33).



Matthew 5:17, ”Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill”. And it has yet to be fulfilled.

John 1:14, “The Word became flesh”. What do you think the “Word” is in this instance?

“Everyone will die for his own iniquity” (Jeremiah 31:30), including you, despite any promise the false prophet Paul may have given you. As for the OT fathers, Abraham met the LORD.

New American Standard Bible Genesis 18:1
Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

As for the bread of life, taken without leaven, such as the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, that would be the “Word” of God, which must be eaten without “leaven”. You have made the “Word” “obsolete” (Hebrews 8:13), and have substituted the leaven, the word of the Pharisee Paul in its stead. And of course you will die, despite the fact that the devil and his son has told you that just because you now determine what is evil from good (Romans 7:6), “you surely shall not die” (Genesis 3:4). Anything not in align with the Law and the testimonies, is of the darkness (Isaiah 8:20). The Catholics think they eat the “body of Christ”, yet inevitably, they always die.

Jesus fulfilled the law when he died sinless. It wasn't the law he was saved by, but his two commandments of love that fulfilled it. ( If you don 't believe in what the Spirit (capital S) showed Paul and others in non canon gospels, you won't see it, so I will not quote from them. You want to see the time before truth came rather than what she spoke after she arrived, Holy Spirit)

The Word is "truth" from the true God, the Father. Jesus said HE was the TRUTH. Not those who came before him. Jesus became truth when he was conceived by the Holy Spirit and the Father in the womb of flesh (Mary).

The Holy Spirit (mother) and God (Father) conceived Jesus (Son, capital S). Before that, only ANGELS spoke to man. Acts 7.
Luke:
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Read John 10 completely to get the message of those who came before Christ:
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.-John 10:8

Abraham didn't meet the Father or hear him, by Jesus own words.
John 5:37 :
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 8:
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. (Abraham did not "hear" God)

Don't just read my verses, but the whole chapter in which they came. BTW- no one knows the author of Hebrews. Just because the catholics included it in canon, it is not Paul. Marcion knew this when he created the first canon Bible.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Pray not to be tested. The Holy Spirit is on the one hand and the fire is on the other. They are not the same thing. The trees that don't bear fruit are thrown in the fire (Matthew 3:10). Pray not to be tested.
Fire means destruction. The destruction of that "born of flesh" is the spiritual fire of the Holy Ghost.

John 6:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Born of the Spirit is to die to the flesh.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I think you mistake Christendom for Christianity. Paul was not a false apostle or else God would have exposed him through the other apostles who were all possessed of holy spirit. Do you honestly believe that God would permit his word and Christ's mission to be taken over by men? You seem to think that God is somehow powerless.....why? We were warned well in advance about the "weeds" of Christendom. They were not sown by Paul.

The tare seed was sown by Paul, and as the tares are "fruitless", and Paul's gospel of grace requires no "good fruit" to be saved from the "wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7-8), Paul's followers get "gathered up" "first" and thrown into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:30 & Matthew 13:42). And Paul, as the head tare, was protected by Yeshua per Matthew 13:29. Paul was fulfilling "Scripture", as he was the "staff" "Favor", who was to "pasture the flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:4-10). God not only allowed the "false prophet" to be protected, he kept the "ruler of the world" in power. It was the "ruler of the world", the heads of the beast, who were to crush the "harlots" Judah and Israel in "judgment" (Hosea 5:9- 6:2) & (Revelation 17:16).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Fire means destruction. The destruction of that "born of flesh" is the spiritual fire of the Holy Ghost.

John 6:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Born of the Spirit is to die to the flesh.

Your problem is that you are still in the "flesh", and because you have not come out of "her", the daughter of Babylon, you "receive of her plagues" (Revelation 18:4 & Zechariah 2:7). Talk is cheap. All of Paul's followers "receive of her plagues". And those who cause the "little ones" to stumble, it would have been better if they had not been born. (Matthew 18:6) And you will die (Jeremiah 31:30), and your body will return to dust. (Genesis 2:7)
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Pray not to be tested. The Holy Spirit is on the one hand and the fire is on the other. They are not the same thing. The trees that don't bear fruit are thrown in the fire (Matthew 3:10). Pray not to be tested.

If one does not produce fruit, they are thrown in the furnace of fire, regardless of any prayer not to be tested. God does not hear the prayer of the sinner. (John 9:31)

New American Standard Bible John 9:31
"We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The same reason for any judgment meted out by God.....disobedience to his commands.

The Commandments were given to Israel. Why is one third of mankind killed by fire (Revelation 9:18-21). Why are all the nations "crushed", "all at the same time" (Daniel 2:35)?

Is the judgment for the nations on par with the judgement with Jacob? (Jeremiah 30:11)? When and were is the judgment?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
You are quoting the "false prophet" Paul (Matthew 7:15-23). He is one of the horns of the beast with two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13:11). Anyone with the mark of that beast must drink "the wine of the wrath of God". Paul's church, the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:4-7), is about to "fall" (Matthew 7:24-27).


As to how did you come by Paul as being one of the horns of the beast with two horns in Revelation 13:11.

The book of Revelation reveals who the beast with two horns is, and it sure is not Paul as you say.
 

socharlie

Active Member
What is baptism by fire? (Matthew 3:11)
There are generally two ways of doing things, the easy way, and the hard way. Since the “many” have chosen the way to “destruction”, and follow the “false prophets” (Matthew 7:13-15), instead of the way to “life” (Matthew 7:14), measures will be taken. In order to “refine” the sheep, they are passed “through the fire” (Zechariah 13:7-9). Not to worry though, for only “two parts in it will be cut off and perish; but the third will be left in it”. This is in respect to the “little ones”. The nations on the other hand, will also pass through the fire (Revelation 9:18), and the unrepentant survivors will end up where there is “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:42) & (Matthew 24:51). What are they unrepentant about? (Revelation 9:21).
it means enlightenment.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The Commandments were given to Israel. Why is one third of mankind killed by fire (Revelation 9:18-21). Why are all the nations "crushed", "all at the same time" (Daniel 2:35)?

Is the judgment for the nations on par with the judgement with Jacob? (Jeremiah 30:11)? When and were is the judgment?


As to how or where do you get that one third of mankind killed by fire, How do you get that out of Revelation 9:18-21.

So you believe those that sat on the horses will have fire and smoke and brimstone which issued out of their mouths in Revelation 9:17.
That by these 3 ,Fire, Smoke, Brimstone.
Was the third of part of men killed.
Revelation 9:18.

So you actually believe those that sat on horses have Fire, Smoke and Brimstone issuing out of their mouths.
You got to be kidding.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
False anointings, and false prophecies describe the results of indifference. Those of you who are self-righteous, are indifferent or worse towards these "little ones', beginning in ones own household.

And, so the sword did come. But you didn't see it coming, or even the wounds you've sustained prior.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Actually, you are completely wrong. They were immersed in fire as "baptism" means immersion.

I think you misread that.....some interpret the baptism of fire being related to the 'tongues of fire' that appeared at Pentecost.

Being baptized with holy spirit (there is no "ghost" in scripture) meant being filled with the power that the holy spirit imparted to Jesus' disciples, just as it was given to Jesus at his baptism. Jesus the man, became Jesus the Christ because of his anointing, being baptized with both water and spirit. The water baptism came first, then the baptism with holy spirit.

Baptism by fire is something else.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

They were to receive "power" when the holy spirit came upon them....power to do what? To be "witnesses" of Jesus "to the uttermost part of the earth". They were given abilities that made people wonder....foreign visitors to Jerusalem heard the gospel preached in their own native tongue by those who had never learned it. The way to reach a person's heart is through their mother tongue...God provided the means. He does so today as well.

The application is quite clear. Watchtower had it wrong.

You are free to believe that, but I think they are spot on...and the only ones carrying out the work that Jesus said would be done under his direction in all the earth as a witness to all the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The tare seed was sown by Paul, and as the tares are "fruitless", and Paul's gospel of grace requires no "good fruit" to be saved from the "wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7-8), Paul's followers get "gathered up" "first" and thrown into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:30 & Matthew 13:42). And Paul, as the head tare, was protected by Yeshua per Matthew 13:29. Paul was fulfilling "Scripture", as he was the "staff" "Favor", who was to "pasture the flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:4-10). God not only allowed the "false prophet" to be protected, he kept the "ruler of the world" in power. It was the "ruler of the world", the heads of the beast, who were to crush the "harlots" Judah and Israel in "judgment" (Hosea 5:9- 6:2) & (Revelation 17:16).
You obviously believe that God had no say in what constitutes his word and who was to be included in it.

If you are wrong about Paul, then imagine what that means for you.

The tares sown by the devil is Christendom....beginning with her foundation in the 4th century....in the establishment of the Roman Catholic church. Her reign of terror lasted way too long, but towards the end of the times God reduced her stranglehold and freed his word so that it could be read by all. Protestantism broke the power of Rome and provided God's word to the masses, but it was not the answer to Christianity's downfall. These 'daughters' took their mother's core doctrines with them, resulting in an unrecognizable splintering into literally thousands of bickering sects all supposedly leading people to heaven via different routes. That is not what Christ taught. (1 Corinthians 1:10) What identified true Christianity was unity, not endless division.
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You obviously believe that God had no say in what constitutes his word and who was to be included in it.

If you are wrong about Paul, then imagine what that means for you.

The tares sown by the devil is Christendom....beginning with her foundation in the 4th century....in the establishment of the Roman Catholic church. Her reign of terror lasted way too long, but towards the end of the times God reduced her stranglehold and freed his word so that it could be read by all. Protestantism broke the power of Rome and provideed God's word to the masses, but it was not the answer to Christianity's downfall. These 'daughters' took their mother's core doctrines with her, resulting in an unrecognizable splintering into literally thousands of bickering sects all supposedly leading people to heaven via different routes. That is not what Christ taught. (1 Corinthians 1:10) What identified true Christianity was unity, not endless division.


You are calling up down and down up. God’s word is constituted by the Law and the prophets. As Yeshua’s testimony is also the spirit of prophecy/Revelation, his testimony would be included. Yeshua’s message was the “word of the kingdom”(Matthew 13:19), the “good seed”. Paul’s message was the gospel of grace, which is antithetical to the gospel of the kingdom, and constitutes the tare seed, which is to be planted in the same field with the wheat seed, the good seed. The NT canon is the product of your “daughter of Babylon”, the Roman church, and you hold on to it as if it were from God and holy. There is nothing about or from the Roman church that is holy. Yeshua warned you, yet you did not take heed. Paul’s message is the message of the father of lies, the serpent, who says, “you surely shall not die”. That is the same message of Paul, in that you will be twinkled, and go straight from corruptible to incorruptible, if you simply believe Paul's message. It is known as the “big lie”. You have been duped. (Revelation 13:14), by the beast with two horns like lamb, Constantine, and his “Christ” like horns, Peter and Paul.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Commandments were given to Israel.

Jesus was Jewish and he taught by extension what is in the law of Moses. The only things that changed pertained to the sacrificial laws. Jesus fulfilled them, but the moral laws remained.

Jesus said....“Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17)

Why is one third of mankind killed by fire (Revelation 9:18-21).

Revelation is presented in signs. Read the whole passage....

Revelation 9:16-21......"The number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads; I heard the number of them. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in the vision and those seated on them: They had fire-red and hyacinth-blue and sulfur-yellow breastplates, and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 A third of the people were killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the sulfur that came out of their mouths.
But the rest of the people who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands; they did not stop worshipping the demons and the idols of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders nor of their spiritistic practices nor of their sexual immorality nor of their thefts."


What do you read here? A third of the people were killed....but how? There is a vast cavalry with those seated on horses who were clearly not human. The smoke and fire and sulfur that came out of their mouths, is what killed those people. Then it says that those not killed still refused to repent.

Why are all the nations "crushed", "all at the same time" (Daniel 2:35)?

Because when God's kingdom "comes" Jesus will assume rulership over this earth as God's anointed king, and the first thing he will do is to cleanse the earth of all traces of satanically inspired human rulership. (Daniel 2:44)
Then he will rule in their place and God's rulership will stand forever. At last! An incorruptible ruler!

Is the judgment for the nations on par with the judgement with Jacob? (Jeremiah 30:11)?

No. Jacob was one of the family line of Abraham to whom the covenant was made. Jeremiah points to the restoration of an Israelite remnant and the raising up of “a righteous sprout” (Jeremiah 3:14-18; 16:14-21; 23:3-8; 30:1–31:26; 33:1-26) That "righteous sprout” was Jesus Christ.

When and were is the judgment?

The judgment happens on earth where God's sovereignty was first called into question in Eden. The sequence of events foretold by Jesus in Matthew 24:3-14 indicate that this judgment is not far away. He has been installed as King and has been guiding his true disciples in the work that he assigned to them, just as he promised. Satan and his demons are about to be hurled into the abyss for the full 1,000 years of the kingdom's rule, after which time he will be released to test redeemed and perfected mankind one last time before he, and all whom he was able to mislead, are hurled into "the lake of fire", (the second, or everlasting death) never to be seen again.

God's will is then free to "be done on earth as it is in heaven".
 
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