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Evangelicals Losing?

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
"American Christian evangelicals" represents ALL evangelicals... majority is understood! otherwise it would say "ONE PASTOR SAID".

And I never said "you said it".

And representing a flock doesn't mean that the flock agrees everything that is said.
okeee dokeee
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Do you consider Matthew 19:16-19 and Matthew 25:31-46 as derivative of the passages you mentioned? I see them in conjunction with the antitheses (Matthew 5:21-48) to be the core teachings of Jesus as presented by Matthew.

Hmmm...interesting question. I'm only on Matthew 6 so I haven't considered this. But looking at the scripture you link to...

I think that the Beatitudes describe a personal, psychological attitude that is fairly independent of creed. The Matthew 19:16-19 is an affirmation of the commandments and Matthew 5:21-48 a new development of the understanding of those commandments. Matthew 25:31-46 is similar to Matthew 5:21-48 in its new emphasis on inner motivation... So I would provisionally say that yes the important message is derivative of the idea behind the Beatitudes that one's psychological attitude is what one must be perfect in and the rest of the commandments and teachings will fall out naturally from this.

I think that Jesus was teaching us how to judge within ourselves our righteousness and turn it from a spectator sport and into a personal meditation and effort. Internal genuineness has become the main thing rather than public sin and public atonement. It is an "elevation" of self-consciousness which is what is the primary focus of the Good News.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Hmmm...interesting question. I'm only on Matthew 6 so I haven't considered this. But looking at the scripture you link to...

I think that the Beatitudes describe a personal, psychological attitude that is fairly independent of creed. The Matthew 19:16-19 is an affirmation of the commandments and Matthew 5:21-48 a new development of the understanding of those commandments. Matthew 25:31-46 is similar to Matthew 5:21-48 in its new emphasis on inner motivation... So I would provisionally say that yes the important message is derivative of the idea behind the Beatitudes that one's psychological attitude is what one must be perfect in and the rest of the commandments and teachings will fall out naturally from this.

I think that Jesus was teaching us how to judge within ourselves our righteousness and turn it from a spectator sport and into a personal meditation and effort. Internal genuineness has become the main thing rather than public sin and public atonement. It is an "elevation" of self-consciousness which is what is the primary focus of the Good News.

I do see what you call 'internal genuineness' as important to Jesus in Matthew. I also see a call to genuinely righteous action in Matthew 19:16-19 and Matthew 25:21-46. In Matthew 15:1-9 we can see Jesus attacking the obsession with 'man-made rules' of the Pharisees that even get in the way of righteous action. In the antitheses in the Sermon on the Mount, we see Jesus going beyond the strict literal interpretation of rules to understanding what they are really about. IMO it is about both internalizing the Spirit of the Law and externalizing that Spirit in our actions.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
if they still support Trump and Moore, they've compromised their supposed Christian faith into oblivion.

I'd say that that ship has sailed. Even if they see the light some day, they have trashed their religion. And if they ever se the light, it will be by watching the news instead of listening to their pastors.

From Franklin Graham: Trump’s Affair Happened Before He Was President, So Who Cares?

"On CNN last night, evangelist Franklin Graham argued that Donald Trump‘s alleged affair with a porn star wasn’t a deal-breaker for evangelical Christians because it “happened 11, 12, 13, 14 years ago… before he was in office.” As if Jesus said affairs are forgivable as long as you don’t have them while president. Anchor Don Lemon then responded with a list of awful things Trump has done since taking office, and wouldn’t you know it, Graham didn’t seem to care about any of those things, either ... We’ve always known evangelicals are hypocrites, but every one of these interviews is a chance to show the country that the Religious Right is devoid of any moral high ground. Trump bragging about sexual assault? Calling predominantly black countries “****holes”? Tearing apart families by deporting members? Making it more difficult for low income people to access affordable health care? Making the wealthy even wealthier? Graham and his Christian colleagues don’t give a damn about any of it. So he’s lying when he tells you Trump’s affair doesn’t matter since it happened before he came into office since all the things Trump has done while in office don’t matter either. (Including the payment of hush money to Stormy Daniels.) As long as Trump keeps checking off other items on the evangelical wish list, his personal morality is the trade-off."
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I doubt that the 2018 Congressional elections will result in Democrats holding 2/3 of both houses. That is what it would take to oust Trump prematurely. .

The House only needs a simple majority to impeach. The Senate requires a 2/3 super-majority to convict.

I expect Mueller to present airtight cases for obstruction and money laundering, and possibly conspiring with a foreign government to alter the outcome of an election.

How would you vote if you were a Republican senator in the face of evidence that removes reasonable doubt in the minds of the public?

Also, impeachment is only one path out the door for Trump. There's 25th the Amendment (there are serious concerns about his cognitive functioning and impulse control), resignation, and natural death. The man seems to be failing mentally, is obese, gets virtually no exercise unless you count steering a golf cart, and eats junk food in bed.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
The House only needs a simple majority to impeach. The Senate requires a 2/3 super-majority to convict.

I expect Mueller to present airtight cases for obstruction and money laundering, and possibly conspiring with a foreign government to alter the outcome of an election.

How would you vote if you were a Republican senator in the face of evidence that removes reasonable doubt in the minds of the public?

Also, impeachment is only one path out the door for Trump. There's 25th the Amendment (there are serious concerns about his cognitive functioning and impulse control), resignation, and natural death. The man seems to be failing mentally, is obese, gets virtually no exercise unless you count steering a golf cart, and eats junk food in bed.

You are right about the simple majority. Memory failure.

I doubt that there will be much of a case against Trump himself. If collusion with Russia by underlings is demonstrated, it would have to be shown that Trump was in on it or no conviction. Nixon's downfall was trying to protect the wrongdoers. Trump has no intention of being trapped like that.

The concerns about Trump's cognitive functioning are nonsense. He is in fact very clever and knows very well what he is doing. The other accusations are just political nitpicking. No Hillary supporters were concerned about her health problems.

To be clear, I am no fan of Trump. But I am not blinded to reality by ideological commitments.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I'd say that that ship has sailed. Even if they see the light some day, they have trashed their religion. And if they ever se the light, it will be by watching the news instead of listening to their pastors.

From Franklin Graham: Trump’s Affair Happened Before He Was President, So Who Cares?

"On CNN last night, evangelist Franklin Graham argued that Donald Trump‘s alleged affair with a porn star wasn’t a deal-breaker for evangelical Christians because it “happened 11, 12, 13, 14 years ago… before he was in office.” As if Jesus said affairs are forgivable as long as you don’t have them while president. Anchor Don Lemon then responded with a list of awful things Trump has done since taking office, and wouldn’t you know it, Graham didn’t seem to care about any of those things, either ... We’ve always known evangelicals are hypocrites, but every one of these interviews is a chance to show the country that the Religious Right is devoid of any moral high ground. Trump bragging about sexual assault? Calling predominantly black countries “****holes”? Tearing apart families by deporting members? Making it more difficult for low income people to access affordable health care? Making the wealthy even wealthier? Graham and his Christian colleagues don’t give a damn about any of it. So he’s lying when he tells you Trump’s affair doesn’t matter since it happened before he came into office since all the things Trump has done while in office don’t matter either. (Including the payment of hush money to Stormy Daniels.) As long as Trump keeps checking off other items on the evangelical wish list, his personal morality is the trade-off."

there are none so blind as those who refuse to see


some only want to look at the surface and see their reflection there vs the deeper reflection. pretty is as pretty does


Revelation 3:18
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The House only needs a simple majority to impeach. The Senate requires a 2/3 super-majority to convict.

I expect Mueller to present airtight cases for obstruction and money laundering, and possibly conspiring with a foreign government to alter the outcome of an election.

How would you vote if you were a Republican senator in the face of evidence that removes reasonable doubt in the minds of the public?

Also, impeachment is only one path out the door for Trump. There's 25th the Amendment (there are serious concerns about his cognitive functioning and impulse control), resignation, and natural death. The man seems to be failing mentally, is obese, gets virtually no exercise unless you count steering a golf cart, and eats junk food in bed.
I still think he'll quit the moment it stops feeding his ego. He'll blame it all on the evil press and the spineless republicans and so on, and start another reality TV show.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The concerns about Trump's cognitive functioning are nonsense. He is in fact very clever and knows very well what he is doing.

Trump blankly wanders from joint press conferences and signing ceremonies while they’re still going on.

He wanders from his motorcade.

Thinks DACA and DREAMers are two unrelated things, and seems to reverse himself on the matter every five minutes.

Recently confused about whether he was for or against FISA warrants and DACA on consecutive days,

Trump bragged that he’d sold F-52 fighters to Norway (those planes only exist in the fictional video game Call of Duty).

He slurs his words (God blesh the United Stesh).

He can’t remember how to hold a water bottle with one hand or the words to the National Anthem.

Covfefe.

He thinks “Nambia” is a country.

Blamed Sessions for leaving the Senate after asking him to become Attorney General.

At one time, Trump liked Anna Wintour, wanted her to be an ambassador, and understood that she ran Vogue. Now Trump hates Anna Wintour, condemns her for wanting to be an ambassador, and mistakenly thinks she runs Vanity Fair. 2012 “I am happy to hear that Presi.Obama is considering giving Anna Wintour @voguemagazine an ambassadorship. She is a winner & really smart!” 2017: “Vanity Fair, which looks like it is on its last legs, is bending over backwards in apologizing for the minor hit they took at Crooked H. Anna Wintour, who was all set to be Amb to Court of St James’s & a big fundraiser for CH, is beside herself in grief & begging for forgiveness!”

He seems to have no sense of the danger he's in, or even what obstruction of justice means.

Do you need more?

And now, as his presidency, legacy, assets, marriage and freedom are all on the line, he still tweets about Hillary.

Is the following coherent to you?:
  • “We have — nobody knows what the number is. I mean, it used to be, when we talked during the debate, $2.5 trillion, right, when the most elegant person — right? I call him Mr. Elegant. I mean, that was a great debate. We did such a great job. But at that time I was talking $2.5 trillion. I guess it’s $5 trillion now. Whatever it is, it’s a lot more.” – Trump
I still think he'll quit the moment it stops feeding his ego.

Maybe.

Of course, that will unleash the hell hounds in the state of New York (AG Schneiderman) just waiting for a bite at private citizen Trump.

And Mueller can have him arrested.
 
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Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Trump blankly wanders from joint press conferences and signing ceremonies while they’re still going on.

He wanders from his motorcade.

Thinks DACA and DREAMers are two unrelated things, and seems to reverse himself on the matter every five minutes.

Recently confused about whether he was for or against FISA warrants and DACA on consecutive days,

Trump bragged that he’d sold F-52 fighters to Norway (those planes only exist in the fictional video game Call of Duty).

He slurs his words (God blesh the United Stesh).

He can’t remember how to hold a water bottle with one hand or the words to the National Anthem.

Covfefe.

He thinks “Nambia” is a country.

Blamed Sessions for leaving the Senate after asking him to become Attorney General.

Trump liked Anna Wintour, wanted her to be an Ambassador, and understood that she ran Vogue. Now Trump hates Anna Wintour, condemns her for wanting to be an Ambassador, and mistakenly thinks she runs Vanity Fair. 2012 “I am happy to hear that Pres.Obama is considering giving Anna Wintour @voguemagazine an ambassadorship. She is a winner & really smart!” 2017: “Vanity Fair, which looks like it is on its last legs, is bending over backwards in apologizing for the minor hit they took at Crooked H. Anna Wintour, who was all set to be Amb to Court of St James’s & a big fundraiser for CH, is beside herself in grief & begging for forgiveness!”

He seems to have no sense of the danger he's in, or even what obstruction of justice means.

Do you need more?

And now, as his presidency, legacy, assets, marriage and freedom are all on the line, he still tweets about Hillary.

Is the following coherent to you?:

“We have — nobody knows what the number is. I mean, it used to be, when we talked during the debate, $2.5 trillion, right, when the most elegant person — right? I call him Mr. Elegant. I mean, that was a great debate. We did such a great job. But at that time I was talking $2.5 trillion. I guess it’s $5 trillion now. Whatever it is, it’s a lot more.” – Trump



Maybe.

Of course, that will unleash the hell hounds in the state of New York (AG Schneiderman) just waiting for a bite at private citizen Trump.


And Mueller can have him arrested.

It was 52 F-35s, an error he immediately corrected.

Ever see Obama answer a surprise question when he did not have a teleprompter in front of him? Basically incoherent
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It was 52 F-35s, an error he immediately corrected.

Corrected? Not to my knowledge. When does the omniscient one ever admit to an error, much less immediately?

Ever see Obama answer a surprise question when he did not have a teleprompter in front of him? Basically incoherent

Not really much of a defense of Trump, was that?

It's got to be very hard for Trump supporters these days.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Corrected? Not to my knowledge. When does the omniscient one ever admit to an error, much less immediately?



Not really much of a defense of Trump, was that?

It's got to be very hard for Trump supporters these days.

"“In November we started delivering the first F-52s and F-35 fighter jets,” Trump said. “We have a total of 52 and they’ve delivered a number of them already a little ahead of schedule.”

Got numbers crossed is all. If it was Obama it would never be mentioned in the media. But WAPO has to make it a cosmic blunder because after all it was Trump. The last President that was able to consistently speak extemporaneously without getting his tongue tangled up was JFK. No White House Press Secretary nonsense. Kennedy held weekly half-hour or longer press conferences by himself and answered every question without hesitation or confusion.

EDIT: The total number of F-35s involved in the Norway deal is 52, 40 on order and 12 more they are interested in but not yet ordered as per this: Norway receives first F-35 fighter jet The Washington Post left that part out.

BTW I am not a Trump supporter. I do not like him. I am just free of ideologically mandated obligations to love or hate.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"“In November we started delivering the first F-52s and F-35 fighter jets,” Trump said. “We have a total of 52 and they’ve delivered a number of them already a little ahead of schedule.”

Got numbers crossed is all. If it was Obama it would never be mentioned in the media. But WAPO has to make it a cosmic blunder because after all it was Trump. The last President that was able to consistently speak extemporaneously without getting his tongue tangled up was JFK. No White House Press Secretary nonsense. Kennedy held weekly half-hour or longer press conferences by himself and answered every question without hesitation or confusion.

Didn't you say that he immediately corrected himself? I missed that. Did you leave that part of his comment out?

There's no evidence at all there that he simply misspoke or that he doesn't think that F-52s exist.. His answer was consistent with dementia, which is why I included it.

Did you care to address any of the rest of that list of incoherent comments and actions, or just the F-52 comment?

BTW I am not a Trump supporter. I do not like him. I am just free of ideologically mandated obligations to love or hate.

Me, too.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Didn't you say that he immediately corrected himself? I missed that. Did you leave that part of his comment out?

There's no evidence at all there that he simply misspoke or that he doesn't think that F-52s exist.. His answer was consistent with dementia, which is why I included it.

Did you care to address any of the rest of that list of incoherent comments and actions, or just the F-52 comment?



Me, too.

The number 52 was on the paper as was the number 35. He got them crossed and then said 52 is the number. That is consistent with misreading the paper not dementia. You want it to be dementia because that is what your news outlet wants you to thin. The same with all the other 'proofs' you offer. If Obama blew it here and here - and he did - you would be full of excuses not claims of dementia. Do not claim you think for yourself when clearly you do not. You are being told what to think.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The number 52 was on the paper as was the number 35. He got them crossed and then said 52 is the number. That is consistent with misreading the paper not dementia. You want it to be dementia because that is what your news outlet wants you to thin. The same with all the other 'proofs' you offer. If Obama blew it here and here - and he did - you would be full of excuses not claims of dementia. Do not claim you think for yourself when clearly you do not. You are being told what to think.

Why should I think for myself when you're there to do it for me. You seem to know what motivates and informs my thinking better than I do.

So I take it that given your reticence on the issue twice now that you're accepting the rest of the list of blunders, but think that this one rules out mental incompetence because it could possibly be explained some other way?

Sure. Why not.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Why should I think for myself when you're there to do it for me. You seem to know what motivates and informs my thinking better than I do.

So I take it that given your reticence on the issue twice now that you're accepting the rest of the list of blunders, but think that this one rules out mental incompetence because it could possibly be explained some other way?

Sure. Why not.

The list of 'blunders' is trivial and no worse than any president for several decades now. But because it is Trump, who was not supposed to win, they become capital crimes. Have your news sources said much about what is happening in the economy?
 
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