Resurrection of Christ - What's the evidence for and against a literal resurrection

adrian009 said:

I'm reading the text more allegorically, whereas you seem to be much more literal.

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No you're not - you are reading it allegorically when it suits and literally when that supports your presuppositions. That is the whole basis of Baha'i reinterpretations of the Bible - you claim at one and the same time that the Biblical record that we now have is compromised by time and inaccurate transmission - so that any verses that seem to cast doubt on Baha'u'llah's claim to be the returned Messiah can conveniently be overlooked - and yet also that you hold to a literalist conservative Christian interpretation that holds - with almost zero genuine scriptural support - to a futurist eschatological position that permits Baha'u'llah to fulfill "prophecies" that were really accounts of events that had (when they were written down) already happened in antiquity.

You have not answered ANY of the questions I posed without attempting to straddle the impossibly wide chasm between literalist futurism and allegorical preterism - your arguments all fall flat if you take either position, but you are again trying (in the time-honored Baha'i fashion) to have your cake and ha'penny.

syo said:

the resurrection isn't symbolic. it was real. he physicaly rose from the dead. at least that's what orthodox believe.

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Luckily God also gave us science

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

That's the whole point of this Argument. If the Baha'is are right the Christians have put their faith in a false belief. If the Christians are right Baha'is have put their faith in a false prophet. Both Christians and Baha'is have faith, but they aren't necessarily right.

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The key is what do you think is more reasonable? That is what you have to come to term with. Is it a Flesh Body that rises from the Dead, or that Soul and Mind free of the body are now raised to the Spiritual Life?

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The key is what do you think is more reasonable? That is what you have to comes to term with. Is it a Flesh Body that rises from the Dead or that Soul and Mind free of the body are now raised to the Spiritual Life.

Regards Tony

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Personally, I cannot see the Gospel empty tomb narratives as intended to be understood as anything other than a literal bodily resurrection.

adrian009 said:

In regards to preaching the gospels to all the nations, my Christian friends have something to say too.

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adrian009 said:

So the traditions in the early Church of preaching the gospels culminating in the final world wide missiorary expansion in the nineteenth century make the preterists notion of the Olivet discourse all being fulfilled in the first century look a little weak IMHO.

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Oh please Adrian - your Christian "friends" really support your view that the preaching of the Good News culminated in the arrival of a 19th century Persian prophet most of them have never heard of??? Like I said - you are just trying to have your cake and ha'penny. You can't...

If you believe the literal and futurist interpretation of Biblical prophecies then you have zero evidence of a 19th century fulfillment (the Jews were not restored to Israel then, wars and rumours of wars happened for sure but they did in the 18th century and again in the 20th and continue into the 21st century, the preaching of the Good News continued in the 19th century but that too had gone on before and continued after...there was nothing more significant in the 19th century 'fulfillment of biblical prophecy than the "Great Disappointment" that Baha'is now try to claim as a 'victory').

If you take an allegorical interpretation, there is no reason to assume it wasn't all fulfilled symbolically in the establishment of the Christian Church in the 1st century.

And if you do the unthinkable and take an honest appraisal then there is no reason to assume that the Bible writers even remotely imagined they were writing about far future events - not even one jot of evidence for that idea.

Rough Beast Sloucher said:

Personally, I cannot see the Gospel empty tomb narratives as intended to be understood as anything other than a literal bodily resurrection.

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You must see it how you choose. I see if God wished to convert us by material wonders and signs, that would be how God would do it.

It is Christ that said tell know man of the miracle and Christ that said the flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is life.

Man wants his material senses to be overloaded with proof, when it is the Spiritual we need to change in us, see with and hear with.

All those that did this in Christs time, became His Disciples. Those that were awaiting the wonders crucified Christ and still wait, this is always our greatest test.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

That's the whole point of this Argument. If the Baha'is are right the Christians have put their faith in a false belief. If the Christians are right Baha'is have put their faith in a false prophet. Both Christians and Baha'is have faith, but they aren't necessarily right.

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But if the Baha'is are right, it has HUGE implications for all of humanity... Why does nobody even seem to care that Baha'u'llah could be the return of Christ, the Promise of All Ages? That seems awfully strange to me.

Pertinent to this thread, most Christians believe that Jesus' body rose from the grave and Jesus' resurrected body ascended to heaven and the same body of Jesus will return from heaven on a cloud. About 60% of people in the United States believe this. They are waiting for Jesus to return and fix everything that is wrong in the world, which means that humans do not have to do anything but wait for Jesus to return. Doesn't anyone see how this belief affects humanity? How can humanity progress when this many people believe Jesus is going to do everything for us when He returns?

Trailblazer said:

Why does nobody even seem to care that Baha'u'llah could be the return of Christ, the Promise of All Ages? That seems awfully strange to me.

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Er...um...just guessing here but could it be the same reason that nobody cares that @siti could be the return of Christ ...i.e. absolutely zero evidence in favour and absolutely overwhelming evidence against...I'm sure the idea that I might not be the returned Christ doesn't seem awfully strange to anyone - believe it or not!

siti said:

Er...um...just guessing here but could it be the same reason that nobody cares that @siti could be the return of Christ ...i.e. absolutely zero evidence in favour and absolutely overwhelming evidence against...I'm sure the idea that I might not be the returned Christ doesn't seem awfully strange to anyone - believe it or not!

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Zero evidence? Do you have any idea how much evidence there is that demonstrates that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ? There is enough evidence to sink a ship. Too bad most people do not even bother to look at it.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!

Again, a man proclaims: ‘There lies a garden in which there are trees with broken branches bearing no fruit, and the leaves thereof are faded and yellow! In that garden, also, there are flowering plants with no blooms, and rose bushes withered and dying—go not into that garden!’ A just man, hearing this account of the garden, would not be content without seeing for himself whether it be true or not. He, therefore, enters the garden, and behold, he finds it well tilled; the branches of the trees are sturdy and strong, being also loaded with the sweetest of ripe fruits amongst the luxuriance of beautiful green leaves. The flowering plants are bright with many-hued blossoms; the rose bushes are covered with fragrant and lovely roses and all is verdant and well tended. When the glory of the garden is spread out before the eyes of the just man, he praises God that, through unworthy calumny, he has been led into a place of such wondrous beauty!” Paris Talks, pp. 103-104

Trailblazer said:

There is enough evidence to sink a ship.

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And certainly enough to sink the Baha'i ship without trace - please see my previous posts in this and the epic "Great Beings" thread. And if there is really evidence please do post it - none of your Baha'i colleagues have been able to do so yet in either thread - and given that the 'evidence' you chose to post is an irrelevant and excessively flowery passage from Abdu'l Baha - writing half a century after his old pot and pan declared himself the return of Christ - I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.

siti said:

And certainly enough to sink the Baha'i ship without trace - please see my previous posts in this and the epic "Great Beings" thread. And if there is really evidence please do post it - none of your Baha'i colleagues have been able to do so yet in either thread - and given that the 'evidence' you chose to post is an irrelevant and excessively flowery passage from Abdu'l Baha - writing half a century after his old pot and pan declared himself the return of Christ - I'm certainly not going to hold my breath.

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As I told the atheists on another thread, it is not my job to prove anything to you, but the fact that I am not taking that on as my job in no way proves it is not true, logically speaking. It is the responsibility of everyone who is interested to investigate the truth for themselves.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

Keep in mind that you cannot sink the Baha'i ship, if Baha'u'llah was sent by an omnipotent God. Moreover, if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, He was, regardless of what anyone believes, since beliefs do not determine reality, God does. So you can laugh all you want but that will not change reality. It is what it is.

All that said, I do not mind answering specific questions but I cannot present all the evidence for the Baha'i Faith on a forum, because there is just too much of it.

Trailblazer said:

As I told the atheists on another thread, it is not my job to prove anything to you, but the fact that I am not taking that on as my job in no way proves it is not true, logically speaking. It is the responsibility of everyone who is interested to investigate the truth for themselves.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

Keep in mind that you cannot sink the Baha'i ship, if Baha'u'llah was sent by an omnipotent God. Moreover, if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, He was, regardless of what anyone believes, since beliefs do not determine reality, God does. So you can laugh all you want but that will not change reality. It is what it is.

All that said, I do not mind answering specific questions but I cannot present all the evidence for the Baha'i Faith on a forum, because there is just too much of it.

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Another Baha'i dodgeball post! OK - don't present all of it then. In relation to the present thread just present the evidence that Baha'u'llah was indeed the return of Christ - Christ's resurrection being (or having been) symbolic of a spiritual resurrection to happen in the 19th century...etc. Just present one piece of actual evidence at a time so we can each investigate it independently and let's see how it goes.

siti said:

Another Baha'i dodgeball post! OK - don't present all of it then. In relation to the present thread just present the evidence that Baha'u'llah was indeed the return of Christ - Christ's resurrection being (or having been) symbolic of a spiritual resurrection to happen in the 19th century...etc. Just present one piece of actual evidence at a time so we can each investigate it independently and let's see how it goes.

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Do you want the verses from John wherein Jesus says He will send the Comforter/Spirit of truth and how that ties in with Baha'u'llah? I have all that written up from former conversations. I also have prophecies from the Old Testament... you choose.

David1967 said:

How important the resurection is depends on who a person believes Jesus is. If only a prophet as some believe, then the resurection would be of little importance. However to the Christian the resurection has much importance. Jesus said he would rise from the dead. If he did not, then he was lying, which would make him untrustworthy.

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Let’s say for arguments sake Jesus physically rose from the dead but afterwards He and His religion Christianity was never heard of again. That after the resurrection it all fizzled out, the disciples died away leaving nothing. No followers. No Christianity.

Would that physical resurrection have meant much at all if the Religion of Christ never took off?

Or was the real resurrection the fact that, despite being crucified, the religion of Christ spread throughout the world for 2,000 years winning the allegiance of kings and queens?

For me, the true resurrection was the resurrecting of the Cause of Christ despite Him being crucified and His followers being persecuted. That is the real resurrection in my book.

Trailblazer said:

Do you want the verses from John wherein Jesus says He will send the Comforter/Spirit of truth and how that ties in with Baha'u'llah? I have all that written up from former conversations. I also have prophecies from the Old Testament... you choose.

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How do you know that what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospel of John is really what Jesus said? How do you know that the "Comforter"/"Spirit of Truth" is referring to Baha'u'llah and not one of the other numerous pretenders to the Messianic throne? It is no use you just quoting out of context "prophecies" from the Bible and stating: "there - that's talking about Baha'u'llah" and then changing the subject again when someone says "no it isn't and here's the evidence against that interpretation" which is what @adrian009 has been doing in this thread so far.

loverofhumanity said:

Or was the real resurrection the fact that, despite being crucified, the religion of Christ spread throughout the world for 2,000 years

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OK - so what about the other resurrections then? What about the resurrection of Lazarus? The son of the widow of Nain? Jairus' daughter? Were these symbolic resurrections?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I would like to share a post on another forum, from a former Muslim who has started a study of the Bible;

"There is a question you mentioned in your original post " Did either one of them rise from the dead?" and that means you believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead with His physical body?

Recently, I am studying Bible, every night. I REALLY enjoy reading it, and apart from the joy, it gives me food for thought. So there is a part in Bible, I read tonight that CLEARLY states that Jesus did not rose from the dead with His physical body. After I saw it, I wondered how any Christian could thought about it as a physical happening. So I would like to share with you the part I read:

1 Corinthians 15:35-58New International Version (NIV)
The Resurrection Body

35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

I, Personally, felt completely satisfied with the answer Bible itself gave me. Maybe sometimes we have to read our own scripture with new eyes, new mind"

So it could be we do need New to see through new eyes and hear with new ears!

Regards Tony

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I'm so glad you found something you can take literally.

siti said:

How do you know that what Jesus is reported to have said in the Gospel of John is really what Jesus said? How do you know that the "Comforter"/"Spirit of Truth" is referring to Baha'u'llah and not one of the other numerous pretenders to the Messianic throne? It is no use you just quoting out of context "prophecies" from the Bible and stating: "there - that's talking about Baha'u'llah" and then changing the subject again when someone says "no it isn't and here's the evidence against that interpretation" which is what @adrian009 has been doing in this thread so far.

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We know by the Character of Baha’u’llah. What He wrote, what He taught and what He stood for.

‘Ye are the fruits of one tree and the leaves of one branch.’
The earth is but one country and mankind it’s citizens.

These and thousands of statements like this are directing humanity in the direction of acceptance of world unity and away from prejudices of race, religion and nationality.

The Bahai Community is a cross section of a humanity that can’t get along getting along as one entity. Humanity is divided into religious, national and racial groups yet the Bahai community has none of these divisions yet is comprised of all these groups living together peaceably and in harmony while those outside the Bahai community are either divided or at war or opposed to each other.

Here you have for the first time in human history a world community comprised of all races, religions and nationalities as one community harmoniously working together.

What’s more we keep our former beliefs in our former religions. There is no movement on earth comprised of a cross section of all humanity that accepts all Prophets, Holy Books and religions.

Aside from the Community Baha’u’llah created where’s the unity and peace in the world amongst nations, races and religions or between them.

They are divided. Who speaks for Christianity or Islam or Judaism or Buddhism? Where is the one voice which speaks for them? Which of their sects is the true one? They all claim they themselves are true and the other false? Who speaks the truth?

We speak with one voice. The Universal House of Justice speaks for the Baha’i World Community. There is only one worldwide Baha’i Community. We are spread over hundreds of countries, united as one community. Show us another world community that is so widespread and united in belief in all religions and dedicated to humanity?

This united world community living in peace and harmony is a very strong proof that Baha’u’llah is the Promised One for those who are fair minded. If they think this is no feat then reflect awhile why only Bahaullah is able to bring these conflicting and opposing people together and no one else.

But for those who’s only intention is to oppose, no proof will ever suffice.

For those who hunger for peace, an end to war, and thirst for unity and justice, the coming of Baha’u’llah is most very welcome and cherished.

http://www.bahai.org/national-communities/

adrian009 said:

One third of the world's population considering themselves Christian is ample evidence of the body of the Christ that rose from the dead. Scripture confirms it:

1) Members of the Body of Christ are joined to Christ in salvation (Ephesians 4:15-16).

2) Members of the Body of Christ follow Christ as their Head (Ephesians 1:22-23).

3) Members of the Body of Christ are the physical representation of Christ in this world. The Church is the organism through which Christ manifests His life to the world today.

4) Members of the Body of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).

5) Members of the Body of Christ possess a diversity of gifts suited to particular functions (1 Corinthians 12:4-31). “The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ” (verse 12).

6) Members of the Body of Christ share a common bond with all other Christians, regardless of background, race, or ministry. “There should be no division in the body, but . . . its parts should have equal concern for each other” (1 Corinthians 12:25).

7) Members of the Body of Christ are secure in their salvation (John 10:28-30). For a Christian to lose his salvation, God would have to perform an “amputation” on the Body of Christ!

8) Members of the Body of Christ partake of Christ’s death and resurrection (Colossians 2:12).

9) Members of the Body of Christ share Christ’s inheritance (Romans 8:17).

10) Members of the Body of Christ receive the gift of Christ’s righteousness (Romans 5:17).

How is the church the Body of Christ?



Baha'i have enormous respect for the Apostles of Christ and the Gospels.

Christ teaches that we should remove the log from our own eye before removing the speck from our brothers, so it would be disingenuous to consider anyone an idiot, let alone an entire faith community.

How do you feel about the gospel writers and Christians?

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Unfortunately, they'd have to be idiots to write about how the resurrected Jesus appeared to the disciples when the disciples and all the other believers are the resurrected body of Christ. Then after they wrote the gospels, the idiot followers forgot they were the resurrected Christ and believed Jesus had risen from the dead.

But don't pretend that you respect their beliefs. Baha'is have called them man-made and superstitious.

siti said:

OK - so what about the other resurrections then? What about the resurrection of Lazarus? The son of the widow of Nain? Jairus' daughter? Were these symbolic resurrections?

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I myself accept scientific fact that after death the body decomposes so these references have other intended meanings not any miraculous or superstitious ones.

When we speak about resurrection of a Proohet we understand the Cause was resurrected after their death not their physical bodies.

When we speak about the resurrection of someone like Lazarus we understand that to mean he was resurrected from the ‘death of unbelief’.

Remember Christ saying ‘ let the dead bury the dead’? Christ referred to someone who did not accept Him as dead as in ‘spiritually dead’.

Here’s some references exposing how we understand and reconcile these seeming contradictions.

THE RESURRECTION OF UNBELIEVERS


Shoghi Effendi wrote:

Concerning the meaning of `Resurrection': although the term is used by Bahá'u'lláh in His Writings,... its meaning is figurative. The tomb is also allegorical, i.e., the tomb of unbelief. - Dawn of a New Day: Messages to India, p.79

The Bab explained, briefly, the symbolic meaning of the resurrections of unbelievers to faith and steadfastness:

True resurrection from the sepulcres means to be quickened in conformity with His Will, through the power of His utterance. - Selections From the Writings of the Bab, p.158


And again, Shoghi Effendi wrote the following, through his secretary, to the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Racine, Wisconsin:

...the spiritual resurrection of man... is...his acceptance of Divine Manifestations. - Lights of Guidance, 1988 revised edition, no.1592, p.481