How are these Great Beings explained?

CG Didymus said:

It seems like in some religions there is a built in "us" and "them". The Israelites were the "chosen" and all others were evil idol worshippers. In Christianity, there are the believers and those that are lost destined for hell. No other people from other religions qualify for the Christian heaven. There's the saved and the unsaved non-believers.

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The world is full of opposites, it is how free will works choice between the good and not so good.

Thus with each Great Being there is the people confirmed with the Message and those that are in neglect of the Message.

The world is built on the twin pillars of Reward and Punishment.

This is a quote about that and also the Great Beings;

"....Throughout the ages, as it hath been recorded by the Pen of Glory in the Tablet of Wisdom, borne witness to the truth of that which the holy Writ of God hath revealed. Even the materialists have testified in their writings to the wisdom of these divinely-appointed Messengers, and have regarded the references made by the Prophets to Paradise, to hell fire, to future reward and punishment, to have been actuated by a desire to educate and uplift the souls of men. Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of wisdom, while others believe them to be the mouthpiece of God Himself..."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158 (Baha'u'llah- Soul after death)

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

Forget the car. The messenger makes claims about who God is. People then evaluate it and decide to accept or reject the claims. There is always enough ambiguity to go either way. It never fits perfectly. Some believe and say how wonderful the new religion is. Others point out all the things wrong with the new religion. But people are still trying to promote the religion or trying to warn people against it. The worst proof of the validity of a religion is how the believers live up it's tenets. Are the Baha'is living proof of the truth of their religion? Unfortunately no, people will always fall short.

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Many are indeed living their Faith in a world always trying pulling them away from it.

Faith is never easy. It is not an overnight cure. The world is now full of people wanting instant service or satisfactions. It's has become very selfish without knowing it.

Live in a 3rd world country and the selfish actions of the developed world are very apparent.

Regards Tony

Buddha Dharma said:

Carlita I'm not sure I entirely agree if what you're suggesting is that the Buddha didn't teach certain views and practices are not good. I think that's not what you mean? The Buddha taught things done out of belief can still be wrong, like cruelty and hatred. Even a Buddhist that does these things has departed from the Blessed One, as the Vinaya says. Even if they say they're a Buddhist.

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You have to quote me so I get your reply.

The Buddha didnt teach a right/wrong as hierarchy. If thats the case, he would be a deity not a person. Instead, he taught as a teacher/guru to his disciples. The relationship between follower and The Buddha are drastically different than a followerer an the abrahamic god (dont know about Hindu and Paganism). When his disciplines asked him questions, they "sat at his side" not below.

The right/wrong are lessons. Its not a matter of teaching to convert but teaching so students learn and think for themselves. In abrahamic religions thinking for oneself as one or was it two bahai put it not good because they don't feel adequate to speak as bahaullahs reps as believers. The Buddha had many disciples, many buddhas, many bodhisattva's, not to mention many gods. All finding their own path to enlightenment.

Anyone can follow any faith and experience good things. If one wants to have full awakening, they follow The Dharma. If not, they will be in a long cycle of rebirth until in Hinduism they reach god or Buddhism free from all attachment and die.

Right/wrong is in Buddhism but depending on the culture, school, and tradition is what defines whether they are correcting a disciple as a teacher in the suttas or correcting a person as their master.

Abrahamics don't expect god to bow to them as they to god. I've gone to temples where laity bow to everyone (age depending who bows first). Its a total different worldview.

Different paragilms @Vinayaka

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The world is full of opposites, it is how free will works choice between the good and not so good.

Thus with each Great Being there is the people confirmed with the Message and those that are in neglect of the Message.

The world is built on the twin pillars of Reward and Punishment.

This is a quote about that and also the Great Beings;

"....Throughout the ages, as it hath been recorded by the Pen of Glory in the Tablet of Wisdom, borne witness to the truth of that which the holy Writ of God hath revealed. Even the materialists have testified in their writings to the wisdom of these divinely-appointed Messengers, and have regarded the references made by the Prophets to Paradise, to hell fire, to future reward and punishment, to have been actuated by a desire to educate and uplift the souls of men. Consider, therefore, how the generality of mankind, whatever their beliefs or theories, have recognized the excellence, and admitted the superiority, of these Prophets of God. These Gems of Detachment are acclaimed by some as the embodiments of wisdom, while others believe them to be the mouthpiece of God Himself..."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158 (Baha'u'llah- Soul after death)

Regards Tony

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Good and evil gets confusing when each side thinks they are the good guys and the other guys are the bad ones. That even happens between religions. Islam thinks they're right. Christianity thinks they're right. Both probably think Baha'is are wrong. Baha'is say what they believe is the truth and that all other religions have lost the original truth they once had. So what's the choice? Some will agree with you, while others will argue against you.

CG Didymus said:

It seems like in some religions there is a built in "us" and "them". The Israelites were the "chosen" and all others were evil idol worshippers. In Christianity, there are the believers and those that are lost destined for hell. No other people from other religions qualify for the Christian heaven. There's the saved and the unsaved non-believers.

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That’s the problem you’ve pointed out which threatens to ruin is but I think this ‘us and them’ mentality grew out of egotistical power mongerers who wanted to dominate, control and conquer otherwise the Prophets only sought to bring us together and help us get along.

The superiority card is always used for some power or monetary gain not to promote love and harmony. Religions leaders who emphasize superiority more than they do love are misleading their followers.

There is no ‘best’ religion in the world not Christian or Bahá’í or any other. An atheist who is loving and kind is a far better human being than a bigoted religious fanatic who asserts only his path is he right one and all others are indfidels or condemned to hell.

Religion came to bring us together. Any religion which doesn’t do that is no religion.

You are a better person than I if you treat people better than I do. It doesn’t matter what I call myself. Our deeds show our true colors, who we really, are not our words.

CG Didymus said:

Good and evil gets confusing when each side thinks they are the good guys and the other guys are the bad ones. That even happens between religions. Islam thinks they're right. Christianity thinks they're right. Both probably think Baha'is are wrong. Baha'is say what they believe is the truth and that all other religions have lost the original truth they once had. So what's the choice? Some will agree with you, while others will argue against you.

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Love and unity is the path. Whatever teaching promotes love and harmony between people is good. All the religions which promote love are good. If any religion teaches hate, killing or war then it is not a religion or has ceased to be because the purpose of religion is to unite man.

So there is no ‘ wrong’ religion as long as religion is promoting love and unity.

loverofhumanity said:

Love and unity is the path. Whatever teaching promotes love and harmony between people is good. All the religions which promote love are good. If any religion teaches hate, killing or war then it is not a religion or has ceased to be because the purpose of religion is to unite man.

So there is no ‘ wrong’ religion as long as religion is promoting love and unity.

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But the Jewish Bible is filled with wars and fighting... And God is right in the middle of it all.

What is God and where do we find or experience God?

We Bahais are told it is a ‘mystical feeling’. So it can be a lot of things people have experienced but not associated with the term God.

Terms like ‘enlightenment’ ‘salvation’ ‘born again’ ‘moksha’ and ‘certitude’ are all different words for a mystic feeling we feel at a level of consciousness that words cannot describe.

Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, Moses, Baha’u’llah all had reached a height of ‘mysticism’ which has mesmerized billions wanting to emulate These Educators.

Some try on their own to become one with a Supreme Being through prayer and meditation. But even those who claim not to believe in God acknowledge this ‘mystic faculty’ within us which enables us to distinguish ourselves from the animal which has its existence on a plane of simple survival. We can survive but with this inbuilt mystical faculty we aspire and want to advance and strive to better our knowledge and reach greater heights.

What is this mystic faculty? What is it in us for and what is its purpose? We can choose to ignore it but most cannot. Where does it draw us to? To an unknown? To nothingness or truth?

No one can deny that there is an inner self we pose questions to within. When you ask yourself something who is asking whom?

Aren’t you asking the person within you who has the knowledge and wisdom? How can we consult with ourselves if there is no one else there?

Or is there someone else there whom we would never suspect of being there? It knows all our feelings and secrets yet how can it be us when we are consulting it?

It seems to be as close as ‘out life veins’.

“Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.”

The Hidden Words
Bahá'u'lláh

CG Didymus said:

But the Jewish Bible is filled with wars and fighting... And God is right in the middle of it all.

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To my knowledge there are two scenarios where war is attributed to God.

1. When organisations such as Isis or political organisations use religion or God as an excuse or pretext for war but it is not a command of God but a fabrication.

2. Where God has intervened in a perceived injustice which is very rarely if ever but there are records of wars between the Islaeilites and the Amalekites. The Amalekites were not innocent bystanders but more like Isis over a period of 500 years continually killing, plundering and raping innocent Jews. God is said to have commanded their extermination just like we have no qualms about destroying Isis.

Israeli Analyst: ISIS Is the Amalekites of the Old Testament

I understand that an All Knowing God knows and applies His power justly and is not merciless or cruel but just. However the terrorist cannot be shown kindness. Not in those days as we see today they are only too willing to shed our blood and have no remorse whatsoever.

CG Didymus said:

Good and evil gets confusing when each side thinks they are the good guys and the other guys are the bad ones. That even happens between religions. Islam thinks they're right. Christianity thinks they're right. Both probably think Baha'is are wrong. Baha'is say what they believe is the truth and that all other religions have lost the original truth they once had. So what's the choice? Some will agree with you, while others will argue against you.

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All I can tell you it is a different mindset.

The Messages of all the Great Beings are not wrong. If we collect all the writings and examine them together they tell a complete story. Thus in heart, one can say this with 100% conviction, as Baha'u'llah has proven this with logical argument.

The choice is just that, we have to decide if we think God is the logical conclusion and then if so, is there only one God of many Names. Or many Gods, or no God.

I actually do not have time to think about right or wrong of this, we spend a lot of time trying to understand this for our own selves and upon that investigative path, we can share what we find. I do not see it as right or wrong but a journey in expanding our frames of reference. It could very well be that within each of us Truth is organic and it grows in each of us as we investigate. Lets use an example.

The trinity is a level of understanding that we have accepted as our frame of reference, if it does not hinder us following what Christ has offered and what He has promised, then the frame of reference is an adequate Truth for us. But if we still long in that practice for the return of Christ and the Trinity is blocking the avenues of vision we would require, then this frame of reference is no longer adequate and needs to be expanded.

Remember the offer here has always been lets find what the great beings have said, then compare other scriptures with these to see if our thoughts could be expanded. With this path we have to consider Progressive Revelation.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

But the Jewish Bible is filled with wars and fighting... And God is right in the middle of it all.

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I see all those stories as the result of the rejection of Gods Message.

History will maybe record the Wars of this time, all this in the time of a Message of Peace.

The wars are not from God, but I see it is important to record them as the results of rejecting the Message in the age it was Given.

The issue here is that man and His Greed and want for Domination needs the majority who have a greater vision for all of humanity, to stand up and implement the change.

Regards Tony

Carlita said:

I was thinking in general its illogical. Outside of religion, if I had a pencil in my hand I can deny its existence even though its not true. If I had no pencil, there would be nothing to deny. Instead, I can deny the idea that there is a pencil but not the pencil itself.

Make sense?

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It makes sense and brings us back to something we discussed earlier iin this thread, the difference between beliefs and facts.

The pencil in my hand exists independantly of my belief in it.

If I insist the pencil does not exist when it does, then I am in denial. If I insist that it is there, whereas it is not, I am mistaken.

adrian009 said:

It makes sense and brings us back to something we discussed earlier iin this thread, the difference between beliefs and facts.

The pencil in my hand exists independantly of my belief in it.

If I insist the pencil does not exist when it does, then I am in denial. If I insist that it is there, whereas it is not, I am mistaken.

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In this analogy, the pencil is not there. Yes, my belief does not change whether there is a pencil. Since there isnt anything there, the only thing I can logically reject is the idea there is one. There are many ideas we reject based on facts we observed ourselves.

So, given the example (what you have read only) and fact nothing is there, how can I assume something is there to take your view into consideration?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see all those stories as the result of the rejection of Gods Message.

History will maybe record the Wars of this time, all this in the time of a Message of Peace.

The wars are not from God, but I see it is important to record them as the results of rejecting the Message in the age it was Given.

The issue here is that man and His Greed and want for Domination needs the majority who have a greater vision for all of humanity, to stand up and implement the change.

Regards Tony

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I thought God tells the Israelites to go in and posess the land and, in some cases, to kill everyone, including women and children?

CG Didymus said:

I thought God tells the Israelites to go in and posess the land and, in some cases, to kill everyone, including women and children?

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I see all these stories as a Spiritual metaphor. Death is a result of not believing. Thus when the Israelites move in, take up residence and spread the Faith, many find the new Faith and death of all past erroneous belief occurs and right practice confirmed. To those that do not accept the new Faith, death is a consequence of not accepting.

Old Badger used this argument many times against the Baha'i Faith, saying if it spread, they would be forced to submit.

Also you may have noted that Vinayaka also used this argument, that the Baha'i's by moving to a country, settling, teaching and people accepting are in turn Killing a culture.

Christ says it these examples;

Matthew 10:21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rise against their parents and have them put to death."

Mathew 10:34"Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’…"

Thus these stories were not literal but that of a Spiritual Fact. At one time in my life, I have kept the letter, my mother disowned me because I had become a Baha'i. Later on, a couple of years, she found that was Old Testament Law and with Christ she should not have done it. With this I think the intent of those scriptures are now explained.

It is now said in this way by Baha'u'llah;

"...Beware lest ye shed the blood of anyone. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy, hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand. Aid ye your Lord, the God of Mercy, with the sword of understanding. Keener indeed is it, and more finely tempered, than the sword of utterance, were ye but to reflect upon the words of your Lord. Thus have the hosts of Divine Revelation been sent down by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, and thus have the armies of divine inspiration been made manifest from the Source of command, as bidden by God, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved."

This part needs deep reflection - "..Aid ye your Lord, the God of Mercy, with the sword of understanding. Keener indeed is it, and more finely tempered, than the sword of utterance, were ye but to reflect upon the words of your Lord..." Abdul'baha was the living example of that quote.


Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

I thought God tells the Israelites to go in and posess the land and, in some cases, to kill everyone, including women and children?

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As Metaphor is an important understanding, You may also get an insight from this quote from Baha'u'llah, this quote shows the connection of all the Great Beings, that they were One and all have suffered each others fate, to me it is given in a very clear metaphor;

“Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous revelations of Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver Me into the hands of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands. Again Thou didst cast Me into the prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed to Me its meaning through the potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people! To what a state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose…. Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer.” (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXXIX)

Regards Tony

Carlita said:

In this analogy, the pencil is not there. Yes, my belief does not change whether there is a pencil. Since there isnt anything there, the only thing I can logically reject is the idea there is one. There are many ideas we reject based on facts we observed ourselves.

So, given the example (what you have read only) and fact nothing is there, how can I assume something is there to take your view into consideration?

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One word Trust.

Trust, based on the knowledge that the Truth is being told and that there is never any untruth given from that source.

In this post the source of trust is the Great Beings.

Regards Tony

Carlita said:

What is my motivation for trust? Writing is a hobby not my career so if a pencil were in your hand why would I use it?

The pencil.

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That makes no sense to me. Sorry, you could ask to borrow it.

Just ask for the pencil, if you want it, its all yours. I have heaps.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

That makes no sense to me. Sorry, you could ask to borrow it.

Just ask for the pencil, if you want it, its all yours. I have heaps.

Regards Tony

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Haha. I can understand simple analogies because it gives me room to understand a topic because 1. Its simple and direct 2. Has no bias (unless the person adds a nonexistent one) and 3. I understand it.

If you're not interested in following the analogy why would that be different than my not being motivated to learn about god?

No trust, no interest, no conversation.