British Values

Rival · Jan 16, 2018

oldbadger said:
If the categories are not written in the OT then they are not genuine.

Oh.... this is fun!
The OT does not ask folks to give charity, it ORDERS them to follow exact poor-laws!

There is not one single dietary law in the 507 that isn't as obvious as day. All easily comprehensible.
Try me?

They build cohesion, and 'sure', there isn't much need for a person who is not an Israelite to remember the passover night, or the flight from Egypt. Like I said before, some were intended for 'back then' or for 'Israelites.

You are very ignorant of the Jewish take on their own Laws. So you think it has to be physically written in Torah to be considered valid? Tell me where in the Torah it specifies what work means in regard to the Sabbath and how to put tefillin. Where does it tell Jews to celebrate Channukkah? What do you think Talmud is? Why is it OK for goyim to eat rabbits but Jews can't eat rabbits? You think that is rational? And you also seem to think there are laws that Jews don't need to follow today. So then I can't help you. Have a nice day.

Also thanks for telling me my faith doesn't exist.

Altfish · Jan 16, 2018

oldbadger said:
The 106 sacrificial laws are not for us, but many of the remaining 507 are brilliant.

I forget whether you support right or left politics, but if you support left-=politics some of the poor laws are just great.

Example:- The retail doesn't put damaged, returned or old stock in the store's skips whole or intact, it smashes everything to pieces for security reasons. By OT law that practice would be forbidden and such items be left for the poor to collect and use where possible.

Example:- Where a tradesmen has trouble in repaying a debt, a bailif is not allowed to seize any of that tradesman's tools whhich he uses in his trade. That is an OT law brought to modern times. There are many of these.

Where are these laws again?

Rival · Jan 16, 2018

Altfish said:
Where are these laws again?

Hi Altfish; since he seems to have taken a break I'll see if I can locate them for you

Rival · Jan 16, 2018

Altfish said:
Where are these laws again?

6 No man shall take the nether or the upper millstone to pledge: for he taketh a man's life to pledge.

7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

8 Take heed in the plague of leprosy, that thou observe diligently, and do according to all that the priests the Levites shall teach you: as I commanded them, so ye shall observe to do.

9 Remember what the Lord thy God did unto Miriam by the way, after that ye were come forth out of Egypt.

10 When thou dost lend thy brother any thing, thou shalt not go into his house to fetch his pledge.

11 Thou shalt stand abroad, and the man to whom thou dost lend shall bring out the pledge abroad unto thee.

12 And if the man be poor, thou shalt not sleep with his pledge:

13 In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the Lord thy God.

14 Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the Lord, and it be sin unto thee.

Deuteronomy 24

oldbadger · Jan 16, 2018

Rival said:
You are very ignorant of the Jewish take on their own Laws. So you think it has to be physically written in Torah to be considered valid? Tell me where in the Torah it specifies what work means in regard to the Sabbath and how to put tefillin. Where does it tell Jews to celebrate Channukkah? What do you think Talmud is? Why is it OK for goyim to eat rabbits but Jews can't eat rabbits? You think that is rational? And you also seem to think there are laws that Jews don't need to follow today. So then I can't help you. Have a nice day.

Also thanks for telling me my faith doesn't exist.

The laws of Moses are writ large in the OT.
Quote from the OT!

And Christian's cherry picking from them is most strange.

Now........... apart from Murder and theft, both included in Brit Legislation, what else would you like included?

By the way, we Brits are very particular about who can wear what, and our hems. Have a look at Courtroom, Coronation and various professional dresses to see that.

I'm amzed at how many of the Old Testament laws have been carried through to our Brit Values and Legislations, but the Christian idea of Morals can so often get wrecked on the rocks of common sense and decency.

Rival · Jan 16, 2018

oldbadger said:
The laws of Moses are writ large in the OT.

Then tell me where it defines what work is in regard to the Shabbat and how to put tefillin.

Exodus 13:9-
9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thy hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the law of HaShem may be in thy mouth; for with a strong hand hath HaShem brought thee out of Egypt.

How? It doesn't say how to do this.

Exodus 34:21-

Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

What is 'work'?

oldbadger · Jan 16, 2018

Altfish said:
Where are these laws again?

No Probs..... I've just snatched a few examples of those and a couple of other situations.

The first para which would cover retailers smashing up unwanted stock, or any business errors causing useful items for the poor to use etc and scores of other sits are easily covered by these laws, if you would apply them to modern times:- (luv 'em?

)
Lev. 19:9 Lev. 19:10 Deut. 24:21 Deut. 24:19 Deut. 15:7 Deut. 15:11

The protection of cooking, working or any essential items in a pledge is covered a few times, but here are three:-
Deut. 24:12 Deut.24:6 Deut. 24:17

This stuff is unbelievable.......... look at this one, any work being carried out on a flat roof or raised platform of any kind in the UK HAS to be protected by scaffolding or other suitable railings around its entire periphery, ok? It's blooming covered in the Mosaic laws!!

To make a parapet for your roof (Deut. 22:8)
(Modern words, but the OT says exactly those)

This kind of thing is all over the OT laws.......... absolutely blooming amazing.

But every one of the 507 is practical common sense stuff (for that time) and much of it can be brought forward to today if it already hasn't been.

oldbadger · Jan 16, 2018

Rival said:
Then tell me where it defines what work is in regard to the Shabbat and how to put tefillin.

Exodus 13:9-
9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thy hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the law of HaShem may be in thy mouth; for with a strong hand hath HaShem brought thee out of Egypt.

How? It doesn't say how to do this.

Exodus 34:21-

Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

What is 'work'?

Heh! I'm not doing your 'any questions', I'm simply telling you that every-single-one of the 507 was a practical down-to-earth common-sense law to cohese, keep healthy, increase, make strong, make successful the people of Israel!

If you have a problem with any single one of 'em, then I'll be pleased to discuss those.

But........ some of them are out of date now.

Rival · Jan 16, 2018

oldbadger said:
Heh! I'm not doing your 'any questions', I'm simply telling you that every-single-one of the 507 was a practical down-to-earth common-sense law to cohese, keep healthy, increase, make strong, make successful the people of Israel!

If you have a problem with any single one of 'em, then I'll be pleased to discuss those.

But........ some of them are out of date now.

No, they aren't. And none are outdated.

@Tumah.

Tumah · Jan 16, 2018

oldbadger said:
Heh! I'm not doing your 'any questions', I'm simply telling you that every-single-one of the 507 was a practical down-to-earth common-sense law to cohese, keep healthy, increase, make strong, make successful the people of Israel!

If you have a problem with any single one of 'em, then I'll be pleased to discuss those.

But........ some of them are out of date now.

Like burning a cow - a red one specifically, not brown or black or whatnot, and mixing it's ashes in water. Then sprinkling that water with a myrtle branch - not pine, or cedar or anything else on people who've come in contact with a dead body on the third and seventh day - not the first, second, fourth, fifth or sixth.

Or like eating wild deer and domesticated cows, but not domesticated donkeys or camels. White fish is cool, but not catfish. Four species of grasshopper, but not any of the others - or indeed any other insect.

Have you seen my post on the sacrificial system?

oldbadger · Jan 16, 2018

Tumah said:
Like burning a cow - a red one specifically, not brown or black or whatnot, and mixing it's ashes in water. Then sprinkling that water with a myrtle branch - not pine, or cedar or anything else on people who've come in contact with a dead body on the third and seventh day - not the first, second, fourth, fifth or sixth.

I would have plunged such laws into the 106, and not the 507.
We (or at least, I) am/are interested in the 507.

Or like eating wild deer and domesticated cows, but not domesticated donkeys or camels. White fish is cool, but not catfish. Four species of grasshopper, but not any of the others - or indeed any other insect.

Let me grab just one of those which I know about. Catfish and other unscaled fishes are mostly carrion eaters. They collect and concentrate any impurities and poisons which are not so intense in scaled fish. Back in the day, or even now, they are not so safe to eat.
I would need to research to discover more about your camel, or winged locusts etc......... but I'll bet that there was a reason behind every flippin' one.

Have you seen my post on the sacrificial system?

No.
I'll look back for it.
We gentiles, especially those of us with Christian backgrounds don't get too excited about the sacrificial laws because neither the Baptist nor Jesus were very supportive of them. Jesus quoted Hosea a few times in the NT, 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice' or close to that.

By the way, MacDonald's doesn't offer a Donkey-burger ......

Hell..... it doesn't do camel-burgers either!
(It may do horse-burgers, just doesn't advertise that.

Rival · Jan 16, 2018

oldbadger said:
I would have plunged such laws into the 106, and not the 507.
We (or at least, I) am/are interested in the 507.

Let me grab just one of those which I know about. Catfish and other unscaled fishes are mostly carrion eaters. They collect and concentrate any impurities and poisons which are not so intense in scaled fish. Back in the day, or even now, they are not so safe to eat.
I would need to research to discover more about your camel, or winged locusts etc......... but I'll bet that there was a reason behind every flippin' one.

No.
I'll look back for it.
We gentiles, especially those of us with Christian backgrounds don't get too excited about the sacrificial laws because neither the Baptist nor Jesus were very supportive of them. Jesus quoted Hosea a few times in the NT, 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice' or close to that.

By the way, MacDonald's doesn't offer a Donkey-burger ......
Hell..... it doesn't do camel-burgers either!
(It may do horse-burgers, just doesn't advertise that.

I've eaten rabbit, pig and horse and it never did me any harm. Why can we eat it but not the Jewish people? Please tell me the sens in that. If they were that bad, G-d would have prohibited it for Noahides too.

oldbadger · Jan 16, 2018

Rival said:
I've eaten rabbit, pig and horse and it never did me any harm. Why can we eat it but not the Jewish people? Please tell me the sens in that. If they were that bad, G-d would have prohibited it for Noahides too.

And may you relish such future meals.

Back in the day when illness could spread more rapidly, and was much harder to survive, banning consumption of hogs and such was a good idea........... they'll eat anything, including corpses. OK?

I do look forward to seeing the Mosaic Law which mentions horses and rabbits as grub. I can't find those at this time; have you got those? Oh, and make sure that any translation about 'rabbit' is bang on accurate....... the thing is, Hares carry the lock-jaw sickness, and back in the day there would have been no cure........... the slightest nick in hand or wrist while gutting a hare is seriously dangerous. They were clever, those Israelites.

Moving on for now: Look at this one, quite beautiful........ now if only Christians would apply this law to their businesses regardless of whether in retail, commerce, industry, farming or whatever:-
Leave corners of fields and orchards for the poor to gather (Lev.19:9 Lev. 23:22)
Now in a World where less than 20 people own half the World's wealth, and where 1% of the people own 90% of the wealth, applications such as the above really would be righteous laws. Notice that I wrote 'righteous' rather than moral.

Tumah · Jan 17, 2018

oldbadger said:
I would have plunged such laws into the 106, and not the 507.
We (or at least, I) am/are interested in the 507.

I'm not sure how you are splitting the 613. I only know of the 248 positive and 365 negative commandments. What are the 507 and 106 dividing between?

Let me grab just one of those which I know about. Catfish and other unscaled fishes are mostly carrion eaters. They collect and concentrate any impurities and poisons which are not so intense in scaled fish. Back in the day, or even now, they are not so safe to eat.
I would need to research to discover more about your camel, or winged locusts etc......... but I'll bet that there was a reason behind every flippin' one.

Most catfish are bottom feeders.

Examples of bottom feeding fish species groups are flatfish (halibut, flounder, plaice, sole), eels, cod, haddock, bass, grouper, carp, bream (snapper) and some species of catfish and shark.

The bold are all kosher fish.

No.
I'll look back for it.
We gentiles, especially those of us with Christian backgrounds don't get too excited about the sacrificial laws because neither the Baptist nor Jesus were very supportive of them. Jesus quoted Hosea a few times in the NT, 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice' or close to that.

Here it is. I understand that. The thing is, that lack of excitement leads misunderstandings about the system. For instance, anyone who is slightly familiar with the system will have difficulty understanding how "Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices". I wonder if after taking a look at my post you'll be able to explain why those animals, grains and wine sacrifices are logical in the specific animals used for the various sacrifices, or the method with which each sacrifice is performed.

By the way, MacDonald's doesn't offer a Donkey-burger ......
Hell..... it doesn't do camel-burgers either!
(It may do horse-burgers, just doesn't advertise that.

That's true, but I hear China is not so finicky.

oldbadger · Jan 17, 2018

Tumah said:
I'm not sure how you are splitting the 613. I only know of the 248 positive and 365 negative commandments. What are the 507 and 106 dividing between?

I counted 106 laws which refer to sacrifice, and all the other laws clearly protect, keep healthy, strengthen, cohese and increase the Istaelite people (back then. Some, a few, are out of date now imo.

Most catfish are bottom feeders.

Examples of bottom feeding fish species groups are flatfish (halibut, flounder, plaice, sole), eels, cod, haddock, bass, grouper, carp, bream (snapper) and some species of catfish and shark.

The bold are all kosher fish.

Yes, none of the bold fish are carrion eaters. Catfish are bottom feeders but sharks are not, so there is not a common denominator in whether the fish is bottom, mid or surface water fish.

Here it is. I understand that. The thing is, that lack of excitement leads misunderstandings about the system. For instance, anyone who is slightly familiar with the system will have difficulty understanding how "Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices". [/QUOTE]
Ah, as a pagan (Deist) student rather than Christian I find both the Baptist's and Yeshua's actions to have been clear and reasonable.
The Temple and Priesthood (back then) was the centre of corrupt, hypocritical, careless, greedy behaviour. The peasant classes were getting fleeced in several ways just for a 'feel-good' factor of redemption. The Temple was filled with images of Baal (Melgarth-Heracles to the Greeks) and everybody was expected to handle them (The Temple 1/2 and full shekel was hammered with the image) etc etc and the Baptist reckoned that the whole llot were a bunch of vipers, so he simply offered the same redemption from sins with a different kind of ceremony and for nothing. I expect that he was working flat out in no time and so were his disciples. I expect that they were receiving gratuities which may have attracted some disciples, heh it's a human world.

Temple takings would have fallen, and that was no doubt why the Baptist got arrested. That he said some aggressive things about Antipas's marriage to Philip's wife could well have got him executed.
Jesus picked up the same movement, just that movement, and I reckon he was baptising in Genessarret later on.
The Christian expansion of those missions after J's death is a whole different story, the history of Christianity rather than the history of Jesus, and we just lost the facts, is my guess.

I wonder if after taking a look at my post you'll be able to explain why those animals, grains and wine sacrifices are logical in the specific animals used for the various sacrifices, or the method with which each sacrifice is performed.

I have never studied the sacrificial system, but we here in Britain have some extraordinary open and hidden ceremonial stuff which is just as strange and after the UK is rinsed by time nobody will have a clue about it, I guess.
I will read it through this pm and come back on this thread.

That's true, but I hear China is not so finicky.

Is there any mention of rabbits in the Torah?
If so, how are they described? I'm interested to find out whether the eating of Hares was banned. Hares carry lock-jaw sickness.

Rival · Jan 17, 2018

oldbadger said:
And may you relish such future meals.

Back in the day when illness could spread more rapidly, and was much harder to survive, banning consumption of hogs and such was a good idea........... they'll eat anything, including corpses. OK?

I do look forward to seeing the Mosaic Law which mentions horses and rabbits as grub. I can't find those at this time; have you got those? Oh, and make sure that any translation about 'rabbit' is bang on accurate....... the thing is, Hares carry the lock-jaw sickness, and back in the day there would have been no cure........... the slightest nick in hand or wrist while gutting a hare is seriously dangerous. They were clever, those Israelites.

Moving on for now: Look at this one, quite beautiful........ now if only Christians would apply this law to their businesses regardless of whether in retail, commerce, industry, farming or whatever:-
Leave corners of fields and orchards for the poor to gather (Lev.19:9 Lev. 23:22)
Now in a World where less than 20 people own half the World's wealth, and where 1% of the people own 90% of the wealth, applications such as the above really would be righteous laws. Notice that I wrote 'righteous' rather than moral.

If they were that bad, they would have been banned for Noahides too.

oldbadger · Jan 17, 2018

Rival said:
If they were that bad, they would have been banned for Noahides too.

How about those rabbits?
Do you have the written law about eating rabbits?
I'm not sure if there were rabbits in the Palestine area back then, but there might have been hares.

Anyway, I've already shown how sensible the 507 were, in fact it is a constant source of amazement to me how sensible they were for that time, in those circumstances.

Did you mention fringes on clothing? That's an interesting one. If every single Israelite wore fringes on their coats and nobody else in any tribe did this, there's an instantly recognisable uniform, right there. Of course we wear uniforms today, even company staff, or even traffic wardens!

Rival · Jan 17, 2018

oldbadger said:
How about those rabbits?
Do you have the written law about eating rabbits?
I'm not sure if there were rabbits in the Palestine area back then, but there might have been hares.

Anyway, I've already shown how sensible the 507 were, in fact it is a constant source of amazement to me how sensible they were for that time, in those circumstances.

Did you mention fringes on clothing? That's an interesting one. If every single Israelite wore fringes on their coats and nobody else in any tribe did this, there's an instantly recognisable uniform, right there. Of course we wear uniforms today, even company staff, or even traffic wardens!

Why do Jews need to be recognisable?

oldbadger · Jan 18, 2018

Rival said:
Why do Jews need to be recognisable?

Hi...
You are asking a question using the prsent tense.
Imo it's a mistake to focus on the 507 in attempts to understand all of them today. If you look back into the days long past when these laws were made it becomes more clear.

And so, can you see that if every Israelite was instantly identifiable anywhere and at any time that this was increased safety, security and cohesion for all?

It was a tough World back then, and most other nations and tribes all around were deadly enemies.
In such situations we like uniforms now.

oldbadger · Jan 18, 2018

Tumah said:
Here it is..

Excellent! I had missed that work because I tend to avoid DIRs, I have copied the whole lot and read all. But I need to LOOK at it all and think about it for a long time.

Tumah, I think you missed a sacrifice: Death by execution.

At first sight this whole system looks perfectly reasonable. Thge Levite 'levels' from Priest down thru temple servants and on to lower officials needed an income, position and control through repetitive ceremony, just like we have today where I live, only we have a different system of sacrifice.

Yiou might tghink that breeding all those birds, pigeons, sheep, lambs rams, and bulls was wasteful, but it was not.

I would like to introduce you to a thumbnail insight of our British Sacrifical System, because this thread is about Brit Values:-:-

British Sacrifice system.
It would take a very large encyclopedia to list and describe the thousands of sacrifices that are performed in thre UK today, and I am inadequate to the task; all that I can do is scatter some ideas upon this page for the reader's consideration.
Sacrificial items vary from Ships and Lorries through pieces of paper and on to intangible beings such as digital numbers and 'time'.
Ship sacrifice: Where the owners of a vessel have failed to pay port fees or other other charges payable on a Ship or other floating vessel, the ship may be seized by a power written on to a 'warrant' and it shall be taken to an authorised port and then the vessel shall be sold at a ceremony known as an auction.
Lorry Burnt Sacrifice: A lesser sacrifice than the ship sacrifice. If a Lorry is found to have been involved in the illegal dumping of waste then it may be seized and taken to a place known as a vehicle-breaking yard where it shall be crushhed into small pieces and then melted down into flowing metal so that no part of it remains.
Car Offering: Once a year all owners of cars shall give an offering in the form of paper or digital numbers for the right to travel in it. More on the papers and digital numbers later.
Car Burnt offering: Where a car is found by law officials (lower order priests) to be travelling without proper paper documents in order, the car may be seized and taken to a vehicle-breaking yard where it shall be melted into flowing metal so that it no longer exists.
Paper offerings: Paper offerings may be made in exchange for any goods by agreement, and to Courts (small temples) in cases where minor mistakes and violations of rules and laws have occured. The Paper offerings can only be obtained through money changers which are located in any town high street. The Papers are made in authorised mints only.
Time offerings: Where any serious breaking of any law has happened, the person responsible will be made to sacrifice time in a special building which they shall not be allowed to leave for a fixed Time. For instance, where Paper Offerings are produced privately and not by an authorised mint, the maker of such money will be made to sacrifice time.
Digital intangible numbers: Such numbers are produced by electronic machines and these numbers can be transferred from a person to any other person or authority in exchange for property, services or Sacrifices as ordered by the authorities.
Government Sacrifices: Where the government has made a serious mistake, all members of the government will sacrifice their positiions and rights to power and hand over to another bunch of idiots who have always wanted big amounts of numbers, paper and posh seats to sit in.

British Values

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