Is God a Mystery that Will Never be Solved?

Thief said:

you just contradicted yourself .....in one sentence

and no...you don't get it

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You see? You didn't understand, because your own ideas and beliefs are in the way, which is why you can't seem to understand about the 'several billion souls' 'losing' something, when there's nothing to lose and nothing to gain.

Trailblazer said:

That is good to hear but that seems more like an agnostic than an atheist... I never heard any atheist on the other forums I have been on for four years say there might be an afterlife...

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I used to be an atheist, even started as one on RF so I'm pretty familiar with the views. The most common atheism is agnostic atheism or sometimes called weak atheism, so you aren't far off in what you said.

Jumi said:

I used to be an atheist, even started as one on RF so I'm pretty familiar with the views. The most common atheism is agnostic atheism or sometimes called weak atheism, so you aren't far off in what you said.

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So you are now a believer? How did that happen? You believe there is only one God but what else do you believe? Do you believe in any religion?

Trailblazer said:

So you are now a believer? How did that happen? You believe there is only one God but what else do you believe? Do you believe in any religion?

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I had a mystic experience after which I believe I know God exists, or at least what mystics have called God. I believe this experience is open to all.

I don't have a religion, I see too much baggage in them. Though I found some religious people inspiring and some scriptures are useful since they come from people who've experienced the same as I have(I believe). I'm more driven by the mystic side, which is often is often a contrast to all dogmas.

What else do I believe? Nothing special I think, I'm a secularist so much of my beliefs are aligned on secular understandings.

godnotgod said:

You see? You didn't understand, because your own ideas and beliefs are in the way, which is why you can't seem to understand about the 'several billion souls' 'losing' something, when there's nothing to lose and nothing to gain.

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you could lose yourself....
and you seem intent

oh well

I don't believe we were made individual and unique
only to die and be nothing

if that is what you want.....I DO believe it can happen

good luck with nothing

Thief said:

I don't believe we were made individual and unique
only to die and be nothing

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The afterlife is neither here nor there, if there is one at all. All you know for sure is that you are here, now, so live fully now, and the future will take care of itself. If you are a Christian, you will have listened to Yeshua's words in the parable of the Lilies of the Field, where he instructed people to 'not worry about the 'morrow':

Matthew 6:25-34
25 Therefore I say unto you, Be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment? 26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto a]">[a]the measure of his life? 28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

IOW: 'BE HERE NOW'

Trailblazer said:

That is good to hear but that seems more like an agnostic than an atheist... I never heard any atheist on the other forums I have been on for four years say there might be an afterlife...

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This "strong" atheist certainly believes in an afterlife. It's just not like anything theists think it is. Deal with it.

dfnj said:

Yes, you are right. Theists are the ones who labeled it "atheism". It is nothing. It should not be named. That is exactly the point. It is the absence of belief.

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We may have to agree to disagree. I cannot pretend that the many Atheist organizations, Atheist books and discussions are all just nothing.
But maybe you could ask American Atheist Organization specifically which definition of which god they "lack belief in" and why. Then, pretend along with them that their reply was "nothing."

dfnj said:

Everything you wrote here is an article of faith. All these quotes I share your belief. Killing the Buddha and the kingdom of God comes from within are my favorites along with the golden rule.

But from the atheist perspective, the only things that "exist" are things that can have shared experiences in reality. You are mixing subjective experiences with objective experiences. As far as the atheist is concerned, all articles of faith, all belief in God, only exists in mind-space in your imagination. There is no real evidence for the existence of God.

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They are shooting themselves in their own foot. If you can't believe anything about yourself, because of your subjectivity, then forget everything else! See? Another illogical aspect of Atheism.

God is just a word as far as atheists are concerned. And the existence of God only occurs in our use of words and language. But that should not be a threat to your faith!

Your faith should be much stronger than anything an atheist could say. Are you missing this point?

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Yes, it is a good point not to be missed, thank you. Sorry if I'm a bit sharp today. I did write a much nicer reply before to you but lost it. I'm working on it, but I am still influenced by what others tell me - I guess it's good to be open, but not too much. I didn't go on this forum for a while, partly because I needed to strengthen my faith.

Still, I WISH that "God" was just a word as far as atheists are concerned. They have their specified definitions: "Spaghetti monster", "tyrannical grandpa in the sky." I wish that they would not mistaken the map for the terrain and toss it because it's in Greek - so to speak.

I like you. I like your point of view. I can see you are thinking about this very hard. You might like this video. It really disturbs me from scientific point of view. If I were an atheist, I would probably not like this video. If you are a theist, it seems to provide some evidence "idealism" is at least equal to science:...

What is IT that decides which quantum state is realized is a mystery. If you were willing to accept the existence of God, you could argue without God nature would not behave at all and we are all essentially spirit rather than material essence. It's kind of a confirmation of what the mystics have been saying for centuries.

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Thanks on both accounts.
It's good to get confirmation for what has been intuitively known for many centuries, but also how we can sense more going on than meets the eye. What I'm trying to do is to take the reins about my conscious thought, realizing it does have influence, especially in my own life.

Sunstone said:

It seems to me that, mainly for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved, although -- given human nature -- many people will endlessly seek to arrive at firm convictions about god.

Comments?

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That God exists is not in question. HOW God exists is the question. Meaning; by what conception of existence could we logically/honestly claim that, "God exists"?

Sunstone said:

BONUS QUESTION: Are there benefits to being uncertain about god?

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Many, as uncertainty allows for possibility.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

Why polytheism? If you want to believe in some intelligent force or forces guiding the universe, it makes more sense to believe in some more technologically advanced humans that created us as part of their simulation. After all, the odds that a god would create a human are low, but the odds that a human would create another human are high. Of course, I don't believe in the human simulation hypothesis anymore than Zeus. This is the problem with trying to use one's intuition in determining the origin of the universe. It leads to absurdities and we're better off just admitting we don't know.

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No, I don't think we're better off so easily throwing in the towel. I do agree that there are multiple possibilities and we cannot conclusively say we "know" for sure much of anything. This is what Socrates and Moses realized.

The reason I'm somewhat fascinated by polytheism is because I see it more like psych-ology - study of the soul via symbols and myths. I've considered the technologically advanced humans creating us as possible, but it doesn't sit well with me. For one thing, personification of spirituality - closed mind, obsessed with ourselves - not that different from deifying Jesus and others. But also, it seems to suggest determinism which I think is both illogical and immoral. If free thought happens, then free will is a fact. Granted, I don't have free will to grow wings and fly (etc.) but I and you do have free will within a window of opportunity and denying that will likely lead to hellish conditions.

dfnj said:

The idea of polytheistic deities is they are like Jungian Archetypes. We channel certain behaviors of certain deities or experience their favors. It all comes down to the purpose of having religion in the first place. The purpose of religion is to provide a map for how a person is to live a meaningful and moral life within the community. One or many Gods doesn't matter if the map works.

Whatever religion we have now in the World is not working. We have way too much war, military spending, dropping bombs, excessive police force, and privately owned prisons outsourcing prison labor. Some days just test my faith.

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I enthusiastically agree with you on your 1st paragraph but it's iffy on the 2nd. We're losing religion. And I don't think you can rightly blame religion for all of that crap. Only maybe during crazy periods like Crusades/Inquisition & crazy places (where there is no religious freedom). However, if you're referring to religion as being the general mentality in the US and similar countries the last century, then yeah, maybe there's some truth. But I try to focus on that which I have influence.

Trailblazer said:

I say “I know” God exists and I have gotten a lot of guff for that, even from believers. You can cringe now…

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Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant it bothers me when people get up and say "I know this church is true" etc. You saying you know God exists makes sense because you have had personal experience that you interpret to be God (& so have I). But when people say, "I know Thomas Monson - or now it's Nelson is a prophet and will never lead us astray" and other dysfunctional cultish things, I cringe.

There's really not much we can know - I mean you can say you know but I think it's better for the purpose of being open spiritually, to say, "I believe strongly that...." But in my church (which I attend but don't believe most), there is enormous peer pressure to say, "I know" when they don't.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

But there are concrete manifestations of love seen in the actions of others, and an associated feeling in ourselves underlying our own similar actions. The word love is an abstraction that refers to all of that.

When considering gods, there are no analogous manifestations to go with the word, and hence nothing to point at - just a word to to think or speak.

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And someone who had little experience with love may make the same argument about love.

How about if we turn that around and say that theism is herd mentality that is all about rejecting atheistic herd mentality? The two positions reject (exclude) one another. The more logical (rational) position is to reserve judgment (agnosticism) when there is insufficient evidence to decide, and to believe nothing without a reason.

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Theism came first is not based on denying Atheism. Theism, unlike Atheism, actually has guts to put something forward on the table.

As mentioned, I also believe that Agnosticism is the most strictly logical position, but logic is not everything! Remember: "Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere." (A Einstein) Fowler helped show how Agnosticism is not the highest developmental stage - there are 2 above it: Chart of James Fowler's Stages of Faith | psychologycharts.com

If you are referring to atheism, it is not a belief system. As you have already been told, it's not even a single belief, although it is derived from two beliefs: [1] there ought to be a reason to believe something, and [2] no good reason to believe in gods has been provided.

Those of you who care about having their opinions taken seriously really ought to learn what it is we believe, which is something you'll only get from questioning atheists. Telling us what we believe and getting it wrong immediately undermines your credibility.

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Ok, maybe you will do what no Atheist ever has done, and tell me in logical terms, exactly which definition of which god you "lack belief in" and why. And explain why lack of belief in said god is better than belief. Good luck.

What takes courage is to stand up on your own two feet like the brilliant bipedal ape you are and face the possibility without the crutch of comforting stories that you are not special or loved except by a handful of creatures on your planet. It's a little daunting at first, and there will admittedly be the temptation to run to the comfort of reassuring stories, but there will be a reward for persisting and succeeding.

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Been there, done that. What really takes courage is realizing that within you is both GOoD and evil - and thoroughly exploring your shadow aspects enough to realize that "in each of us is a bit of all of us" and that functional illusions are priceless. It's particularly courageous to persist in seeking truth despite countless times of being betrayed and fooled along the way.

HeatherAnn said:

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant it bothers me when people get up and say "I know this church is true" etc. You saying you know God exists makes sense because you have had personal experience that you interpret to be God (& so have I). But when people say, "I know Thomas Monson - or now it's Nelson is a prophet and will never lead us astray" and other dysfunctional cultish things, I cringe.

There's really not much we can know - I mean you can say you know but I think it's better for the purpose of being open spiritually, to say, "I believe strongly that...." But in my church (which I attend but don't believe most), there is enormous peer pressure to say, "I know" when they don't.

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Thanks for clarifying what you meant. When I say "I know God exists" I simply mean I have such an inner certitude that I actually know, not that I can prove God exists. Nobody can prove God exists.

When I say "I know my religion is the truth" that is based upon evidence, not personal experiences I have had. Personal experiences can be very misleading because people can imagine what is not true, but evidence cannot be imagined. It either exists or not.

YmirGF said:

This "strong" atheist certainly believes in an afterlife. It's just not like anything theists think it is. Deal with it.

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I am pretty sure I know what you mean. You mean that we go to the grave and that's it. That is the only atheist position I ever encountered on the other forums I have posted on, until I came to this forum, so I am used to it.
Thanks, I needed a laugh... I am kind of down today.
Mind you, I am not laughing at you, I am just laughing because of the way your phrased that.

As I tell all my atheist friends, if there is no afterlife like the one "I believe exists" I will never know the difference but if there is one you will find out, not that there is really anything to worry about, if you lived a good life.

Jumi said:

I had a mystic experience after which I believe I know God exists, or at least what mystics have called God. I believe this experience is open to all.

I don't have a religion, I see too much baggage in them. Though I found some religious people inspiring and some scriptures are useful since they come from people who've experienced the same as I have(I believe). I'm more driven by the mystic side, which is often is often a contrast to all dogmas.

What else do I believe? Nothing special I think, I'm a secularist so much of my beliefs are aligned on secular understandings.

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If you want to share your mystical experience feel free to... I love stories. I know a lot of people who have had mystical experiences but I have not really had any that I could call mystical. I did have a spiritual experience once though, in June 2014, and my life has never been the same since. Before that, I believed God existed, but I never really believed *in God.* Now I am in for the long haul...

I belong to a religion but I do not consider myself religious because I am a nonparticipant for the most part... I simply believe in the teachings and core principles of the religion, wholeheartedly. However, I tend to do my own thing, I always have.

Sunstone said:

It seems to me that, mainly for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved, although -- given human nature -- many people will endlessly seek to arrive at firm convictions about god.

Comments?

BONUS QUESTION: Are there benefits to being uncertain about god?

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If you want, you can think of it like this. You're hurting. Mentally and physically (aka spiritually) you begin to question life. You get depressed cause you don't know.

All of the sudden as if something read your mind,you feel an invisible force open your hand. Convinced it wasn't your imagination cause only crazy people imagine real things happen, you instead think an unseen X listened to your depressed heart.

You open your hand. Nothing. You know you experienced something. The weight is still heavy. Instead of writing it off, you ask others if they experienced the same. You read about people throughout history with the same "symptoms" you feel hope.

This comfort wasn't caused by whats in your hand. You feel its real because of confirmed bias. You see patterns: unfulfilled prophecy.

1. You have a community
2. You have commaderie among like experiences.
3. You have resources
4. Your can define what's in your hands by observing the world around you more acutely.

You are at peace.

There is nothing in your hands. An essense? What is that. A force? What does that mean. Some say spirit referring to their feelings. Some go by definitions of people who passed away. Prophets? Muhammad. Joseph. Zoroaster. Etc. They must know what's in my hands you say.

With this comfort you're at peace. These people explain how what you experience benefits you. How it changes your life. You no longer seek help from people alive just the dead. They know even though you can't ask. You internally personify their writings as speech, advice, and wisdom.

What is this in your hands?

They say god.

Now think. You feel comfort. At peace. Community. Resources. Why Not believe in god.

God is an experience not a Mystery, Essense, Force, nor Spirit. It can be solved. You have to trust yourself or to other religions trust your source and resources and community.

Without that, you will be walking around trying to find what's in your hands. That's not the point of believing in god. Science? Yes. The science of psychology. If no trust in the unknown, it will always be a mystery. That's life.

Trailblazer said:

I am pretty sure I know what you mean. You mean that we go to the grave and that's it. That is the only atheist position I ever encountered on the other forums I have posted on, until I came to this forum, so I am used to it.
Thanks, I needed a laugh... I am kind of down today.
Mind you, I am not laughing at you, I am just laughing because of the way your phrased that.

As I tell all my atheist friends, if there is no afterlife like the one "I believe exists" I will never know the difference but if there is one you will find out, not that there is really anything to worry about, if you lived a good life.

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No, I seriously do mean that so-called "life" and "personality" survive physical death. The difference between me and your garden variety theist is that I won't say much about it other than it is nothing like anyone can imagine and that, likewise, it is nothing like what our amusing little religions portray.

That said, thanks for the compliment on my phrasing. Glad it made you smile. And yes, I openly admit that I phrase things so that they can be read in multiple ways. It's a bit of an art form, really. Just to tease, the various god concepts are echoes of aspects of the psyche, personality or identity that are much more flexible than is generally assumed.

In regards to @Sunstone 's evocative OP, I believe that this mystery can be untangled on an individual basis but that personal realization is extremely difficult to impart to others. So, interally, yes it can be solved, whereas cracking the nut externally may prove more difficult due to everyone's different understanding and thought processes.

YmirGF said:

No, I seriously do mean that so-called "life" and "personality" survive physical death. The difference between me and your garden variety theist is that I won't say much about it other than it is nothing like anyone can imagine and that, likewise, it is nothing like what our amusing little religions portray.

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Well, then I guess I am not a “garden variety theist” because in my religion it says that the “afterlife” is nothing anyone can ever imagine.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...... The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother.” Gleanings, pp. 156-157

“As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings, pp. 345-346

YmirGF said:

In regards to @Sunstone 's evocative OP, I believe that this mystery can be untangled on an individual basis but that personal realization is extremely difficult to impart to others. So, interally, yes it can be solved, whereas cracking the nut externally may prove more difficult due to everyone's different understanding and thought processes.

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We can have a personal understanding of what God means to us, but whatever we might imagine it is limited to our finite human understanding and it could be wrong... I do not believe anyone can understand the Essence of God or that it is necessary to understand it.