How could an omniscient , omnipotent god of love create sin ?

Grandliseur said:

Sorry, that is just not correct. God does not know all things future. If he did, we could have no free will, and the universe we live in would not make sense.
If what I do is because God has foreordained it, then there can be no judgment of it since it is by the will of God.

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You said that God does not know the future because that would preclude human free will. If God does not know the future that would mean God is not omniscient.

I believe God is omniscient but that in no way precludes human free will. Let me explain how this is possible.

Actually, the word foreordain is misleading because it makes it sound as if God is making the decision or determination.Predestined more accurately reflects what is going on. Predestined means that something is destined to happen because it is written on the Tablet of Fate.God KNOWS it will happen, but knowing something will happen is not what causes it to happen:

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........
The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image. Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

God knows what humans will do before during and after they do it, but God does not cause them to do anything.What causes it to happen is a human free will choice which is a choice God KNOWS we will make. That choice becomes an action that God KNEW about ahead of time.

God’s knowledge of what will happen in the future does not CAUSE it to happen, not any more than the astronomer’s knowledge of an eclipse causes the eclipse to happen.

Time as we know it only exists in the material realm of existence where it can be measured by the sun. God has knowledge of the physical realm, our past, present and future, since God is omniscient, although that kind of time does not exist in the spiritual realm where God exists.

Whatever we cause to happen by the free will choices we make is fated or predestined to happen but God knows that it will be changed before during and after it is changed, because God is omniscient.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

So what that means is that as our lives continue to unfold, anything that is written on the Tablet of Fate can change according to our free will actions. God knows what will be changed and written on that Tablet of Fate, because God is omniscient.

Impending fates change all the time, according to our prayers and entreaties. God knows ahead of time what we will do and what will be changed because God is omniscient. God is omnipotent, so God could even allow an irrevocable fate to be changed, but He doesn’t for the reason stated above.

Trailblazer said:

You said that God does not know the future because that would preclude human free will. If God does not know the future that would mean God is not omniscient.

I believe God is omniscient but that in no way precludes human free will. Let me explain how this is possible.

Actually, the word foreordain is misleading because it makes it sound as if God is making the decision or determination.Predestined more accurately reflects what is going on. Predestined means that something is destined to happen because it is written on the Tablet of Fate.God KNOWS it will happen, but knowing something will happen is not what causes it to happen:

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........
The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image. Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

God knows what humans will do before during and after they do it, but God does not cause them to do anything.What causes it to happen is a human free will choice which is a choice God KNOWS we will make. That choice becomes an action that God KNEW about ahead of time.

God’s knowledge of what will happen in the future does not CAUSE it to happen, not any more than the astronomer’s knowledge of an eclipse causes the eclipse to happen.

Time as we know it only exists in the material realm of existence where it can be measured by the sun. God has knowledge of the physical realm, our past, present and future, since God is omniscient, although that kind of time does not exist in the spiritual realm where God exists.

Whatever we cause to happen by the free will choices we make is fated or predestined to happen but God knows that it will be changed before during and after it is changed, because God is omniscient.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

So what that means is that as our lives continue to unfold, anything that is written on the Tablet of Fate can change according to our free will actions. God knows what will be changed and written on that Tablet of Fate, because God is omniscient.

Impending fates change all the time, according to our prayers and entreaties. God knows ahead of time what we will do and what will be changed because God is omniscient. God is omnipotent, so God could even allow an irrevocable fate to be changed, but He doesn’t for the reason stated above.

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Totally disagree.

You are quoting scripture and dogma I do not accept. But, everyone believes as they like, as do I based on the Bible.

Grandliseur said:

Totally disagree.

You are quoting scripture and dogma I do not accept. But, everyone believes as they like, as do I based on the Bible.

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I am genuinely confused. Doesn't the Bible say that God is omniscient and imply that humans also have free will? That is what my good Christian friend believes. He is a Trinitarian and attends the Anglican Church.

Trailblazer said:

I am genuinely confused. Doesn't the Bible say that God is omniscient and imply that humans also have free will? That is what my good Christian friend believes. He is a Trinitarian and attends the Anglican Church.

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There are so many denominations, that what a Christian believes is a lottery.
I am non denominational. I go by the Bible 100% using a Harmonious Interpretation of all scripture, the commonly accepted Bible.
It can be demonstrated that God's knowledge of the future is a matter of his having decided in some cases what shall happen and making this happen. Naturally, he can calculate, predict, much more accurately things we do also, using math, etc.

But, the future is not set in diamond cement. It is not a rerun movie set we live in. God knows all things, all our thoughts up to and including the present. What I am going to think about in ten years from this moment, he knows not; unless I am dead, because that he can see in my body whether I will be alive or not, calculate. Of course, I could be having an accident today and die; this too he might not know.

Grandliseur said:

It can be demonstrated that God's knowledge of the future is a matter of his having decided in some cases what shall happen and making this happen. Naturally, he can calculate, predict, much more accurately things we do also, using math, etc.

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Are you saying that God only knows things in the future that He is going to do or cause us to do, but not what we are going to choose to do and thus cause to happen?

If you have scriptures from the Bible that support your position on this subject I would like to see them.

Grandliseur said:

But, the future is not set in diamond cement. It is not a rerun movie set we live in. God knows all things, all our thoughts up to and including the present. What I am going to think about in ten years from this moment, he knows not; unless I am dead, because that he can see in my body whether I will be alive or not, calculate. Of course, I could be having an accident today and die; this too he might not know.

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I agree that the future is not set in concrete. There is the irrevocable decree that God does not ever allow to be changed (even though He could) but there is the impending decree that can be changed at any moment.

My point was that these things that God knows are not only the past and the present, but also in the future. God knows what we will choose to do before we ever do it because God’s essential knowledge surrounds all things past present and future. That is part of being omniscient.

Something does not have to have happened in this material world for God to know that it will happen, since God does not exist in time as we know it. There is no time in the spiritual dimension because there is no sun by which to measure time.

Trailblazer said:

If you have scriptures from the Bible that support your position on this subject I would like to see them.

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These scriptures are very few. One is very hard to find, but let me try. Now that I have your name in this post, I can go back even if it takes me a while to find it.

I have one scripture right away:
As seen here, random things happen, as the popular saying goes, 'sheet happens.' And so it is.

The other will take me a while to find.

Trailblazer said:

Are you saying that God only knows things in the future that He is going to do or cause us to do, but not what we are going to choose to do and thus cause to happen?

If you have scriptures from the Bible that support your position on this subject I would like to see them.

I agree that the future is not set in concrete. There is the irrevocable decree that God does not ever allow to be changed (even though He could) but there is the impending decree that can be changed at any moment.

My point was that these things that God knows are not only the past and the present, but also in the future. God knows what we will choose to do before we ever do it because God’s essential knowledge surrounds all things past present and future. That is part of being omniscient.

Something does not have to have happened in this material world for God to know that it will happen, since God does not exist in time as we know it. There is no time in the spiritual dimension because there is no sun by which to measure time.

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I found the passage I looked for. Remember that Solomon made God angry at his late life disobedience.

When his son, Rehoboam, became king, we see that certain events were made to happen by the hand of God. These events were not just happening because of God's foresight. Instead, God used his power to make happen what he wanted for a desired result. While I quote this scripture, you might want to study it more in depth if you are familiar with the accounts.
Here we see the method of implementing God's will. It is by his plans, or expressed will, and this is then carried out by his power. This goes for all future things that God want to happen. If then a ruler, Hitler, Stalin, whomever, does something that interferes with his plans, God will interfere with such human endeavors to make his will happen. It matters not what country, what event we speak of - if it interferes with God's plans, it will be squashed.

Trailblazer said:

Something does not have to have happened in this material world for God to know that it will happen, since God does not exist in time as we know it. There is no time in the spiritual dimension because there is no sun by which to measure time.

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And, yet, a beginning is spoken of that began before our universe was created. In this - time is seen to have started in a sequential mode.

Trailblazer said:

Are you saying that God only knows things in the future that He is going to do or cause us to do, but not what we are going to choose to do and thus cause to happen?

If you have scriptures from the Bible that support your position on this subject I would like to see them.

I agree that the future is not set in concrete. There is the irrevocable decree that God does not ever allow to be changed (even though He could) but there is the impending decree that can be changed at any moment.

My point was that these things that God knows are not only the past and the present, but also in the future. God knows what we will choose to do before we ever do it because God’s essential knowledge surrounds all things past present and future. That is part of being omniscient.

Something does not have to have happened in this material world for God to know that it will happen, since God does not exist in time as we know it. There is no time in the spiritual dimension because there is no sun by which to measure time.

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One more comment. The things God has preordained, predetermined - about the kingdom, Paradise, etc. - all these things come about by God doing it, making it so, just like a city planning committee plans it, and executes their plans. They have the authority to do this, and carry out their plans.

That is how I understand God's planning of the future to happen.

Grandliseur said:

These scriptures are very few. One is very hard to find, but let me try. Now that I have your name in this post, I can go back even if it takes me a while to find it.

I have one scripture right away:

Ecclesiastes 9:
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to the intelligent, nor yet favour to men of knowledge; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are taken with the snare, like them are the children of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. Darby​

As seen here, random things happen, as the popular saying goes, 'sheet happens.' And so it is.

The other will take me a while to find.

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Thanks. Unfortunately I am at a grave disadvantage because I do not know the Bible very well, so not only is it difficult to interpret individual verses, I do not know the context of the verse within the chapter. If and when you have time maybe you can explain how this is related to what we were discussing, no hurry, as I will be around these parts for a looooonnnng time.

Meanwhile, I have saved your post into a Word document to mull over if I have some extra time. I also save the link to the post so I can easily go back to post to you... I have a "system."

Grandliseur said:

One more comment. The things God has preordained, predetermined - about the kingdom, Paradise, etc. - all these things come about by God doing it, making it so, just like a city planning committee plans it, and executes their plans. They have the authority to do this, and carry out their plans.

That is how I understand God's planning of the future to happen.

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If God is doing everything how does human free will enter in? This is something I am going to have to mull over a while and get back to you on...

Of course God is omnipotent so God can do anything; the 100-dollar question is what God actually does and how we can ever know what that is.

Trailblazer said:

Thanks. Unfortunately I am at a grave disadvantage because I do not know the Bible very well, so not only is it difficult to interpret individual verses, I do not know the context of the verse within the chapter. If and when you have time maybe you can explain how this is related to what we were discussing, no hurry, as I will be around these parts for a looooonnnng time.

Meanwhile, I have saved your post into a Word document to mull over if I have some extra time. I also save the link to the post so I can easily go back to post to you... I have a "system."

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The scripture quoted here says: "time and chance happeneth to them all." In other words, random events happen to us all. Random as in God not having anything to do with them.

I have a page that I wrote. Not all may agree, but it relates to this subject directly:
link: Truth Seeker - Predestination Debunked

Feel free to disagree and ask me questions. Each person has to make up their own mind as they see things.

Trailblazer said:

If God is doing everything how does human free will enter in? This is something I am going to have to mull over a while and get back to you on.

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We may have plans, but if they interfere with his plans, he interferes with ours. It is that simple. In some cases, he might even kill individuals who otherwise would interfere.

Though none have brought this up, I will now. In Iraq, the ruler, Saddam Hussein, began to rebuild Babylon. This has been expressively forbidden in the Bible. Is he around any longer?! No. His project was stopped. In my opinion, that was the hand of God. Hussein had the money, the power, the plans, but these interfered with God's will. He was stopped, as in dead.

i've got questions said:

I am basing this question to christianity's god , but i guess the omnipotent ,omniscient love god matches with other religions too so thats why i am posting that in this section .
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers

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You specifically mentioned "christianity's god", and that god is based on the Bible, right?

So when you say "we are taught....", can you quote a Scripture that states "god created hell for the demons"?

Skwim said:

Correction: not "we could choose," but "A&E choose." A&E blew it, and god decided that all of mankind should suffer for their momentary lapse in good judgement. Nice guy.

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I'm sorry to hear that you are suffering so much. Hope you get better!

Skwim said:

Correction: not "we could choose," but "A&E choose." A&E blew it, and god decided that all of mankind should suffer for their momentary lapse in good judgement. Nice guy.

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It is sad that so many have suffered since the rebellion in Eden. Keep in mind, though, that individuals have only had to endure 70, or 80, or 90 years. Less than that, if they were ill or mistreated. Then they died, and that was it! Currently they are just "RIPing", until Jesus begins the Resurrection (John 5:28-29), and they're given life again and reunited with their loved ones! That'll be a marvelous time....when all past relationships -- between brothers and sisters, loving parents and children, dear friends -- will be restored, everyone (who wants it) living forever! -- Revelation 21:3-4; 1 Corinthians 15:26.

When the Kingdom comes and these ones are resurrected, i.e., brought back to life, their previous 80-year hardship will be forgotten! Reminds one of Isaiah 65:17.

What more good things will come, those wanting God's rule will just have to wait and see! -- 1 Corinthians 2:9; Isaiah 11:6-9 will be awesome, too.

Skwim said:

And what of those whom god's servants, preachers and such, have failed in their obligation to convince the non-believer, and those who never had any knowledge of such a choice in the first place? They get to go to hell too?

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Contrary to what Christendom says, the Bible teaches that hell is just the grave, where we all go when we die (Ecclesiastes 9:10). Even Jesus was in hell after he was killed! (Psalms 16:10; Acts of the Apostles 2:27)

Examine those verses at BibleHub.com, to see how many translations render Hell as the Grave. The terms are interchangeable, there's no difference.....other than the scary lie it's been portrayed to be.

Hockeycowboy said:

I'm sorry to hear that you are suffering so much. Hope you get better!

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No more so than your average Joe. However, I take it that you're immune to the consequences of the original sin, such as suffering.



How nice for you.

Hockeycowboy said:

It is sad that so many have suffered since the rebellion in Eden.

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Well, isn't it nice that you now recognize there's been suffering since the apple incident. And if the "rebellion" wasn't the cause of suffering I can only conclude that you believe suffering was in god's original plan for humankind.

Keep in mind, though, that individuals have only had to endure 70, or 80, or 90 years. Less than that, if they were ill or mistreated. Then they died, and that was it! Currently they are just "RIPing", until Jesus begins the Resurrection (John 5:28-29), and they're given life again and reunited with their loved ones! That'll be a marvelous time....when all past relationships -- between brothers and sisters, loving parents and children, dear friends -- will be restored, everyone (who wants it) living forever! -- Revelation 21:3-4; 1 Corinthians 15:26.

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Errr. . . what is this RIPing thing that comes after a lifetime of suffering?


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Skwim said:

No more so than your average Joe. However, I take it that you're immune to the consequences of the original sin, such as suffering.

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No, not at all! I've had three heart attacks, and struggle with other problems everyday....but I'm grateful I'm living. My happiness outweighs my suffering.

My reply to you was facetious, I know, but you made it seem that life is only filled with suffering, nothing else. I doubt that's true, unless you live in Chad, or the Sudan. Even they will experience better conditions one day.

Skwim said:

Well, isn't it nice that you now recognize there's been suffering since the apple incident.

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Always have.

Skwim said:

And if the "rebellion" wasn't the cause of suffering I can only conclude you believe that suffering was in god's original plan for humankind.

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It was, and no, suffering was never part of His purpose. But people make their own choices, even perfect ones. Although Adam was created perfect, so he had to force himself to disobey. That's why Satan approached Eve first; the Devil deceived her (getting her to think that she was missing out on something special), and then Adam was faced with the prospect of losing his precious wife. An awful situation to be put in.

Skwim said:

Errr. . . what is this RIPing thing that comes after a lifetime of suffering?

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You know, "Resting In Peace". You see it on so many tombstones, but apparently most people don't believe it. They're told their dead loved ones are 'up in heaven, dancing with Jesus.' As far as the bad ones....well, they're 'burning in hell.'

So much for "Resting"!

It may be comforting to believe that their loved ones are living in another realm -- up in heaven, of course; not burning somewhere -- but if that were the case, there'd be no need for a resurrection. Resurrection means, "stand back to life." Which makes no sense, if they're already living.

Skwim said:

"Following St. Paul, the [Catholic] Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul

As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence")."
source


"What is the effect of Original Sin upon us? Original Sin underlies all other sins and causes our natural powers of knowing and loving to be wounded. We are subject to ignorance, which makes it difficult for us to know the truth, and for some, even to believe that truth exists. We also endure suffering and death and have a disorder in our appetites and an inclination to sin."
source


"The consequences to Adam and Eve's descendants are concupiscence, suffering and death."
source


"Witnesses believe that all men possess "inherited sin" from the "one man" Adam and they teach that verses such as Romans 5:12-22, Psalms 51:5, Job 14:4, and 1 Corinthians 15:22 show that man is born corrupt, and dies because of inherited sin and imperfection, that inherited sin is the reason and cause for sickness and suffering, made worse by the Devil's wicked influence."
source: Wikipedia​

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These quotes that you've posted from the Church....for figuring what they teach, is useful. But in discerning truth, I take with a grain of salt. Know why? Because, they didn't use one Scripture! (At least, the part you posted.)

Now, look at the quote from Wikipedia, about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe....there are 4 Scriptures that are used to support it! In Wikipedia!

I even edited the Scriptures correctly, so that they could be accessed by the on-site Bible (too bad RF only offers the KJV now, but it's better than nothing.)

Hope you are having a good day, my cousin.

Hockeycowboy said:

It is sad that so many have suffered since the rebellion in Eden. Keep in mind, though, that individuals have only had to endure 70, or 80, or 90 years. Less than that, if they were ill or mistreated. Then they died, and that was it! Currently they are just "RIPing", until Jesus begins the Resurrection (John 5:28-29), and they're given life again and reunited with their loved ones! That'll be a marvelous time....when all past relationships -- between brothers and sisters, loving parents and children, dear friends -- will be restored, everyone (who wants it) living forever! -- Revelation 21:3-4; 1 Corinthians 15:26.

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Are you saying that you believe everyone will be resurrected when Jesus comes back? Or will it just be Christians? I know different Christians have different beliefs. What do you believe is going to happen to the resurrected bodies after that?

I do not believe that the reason people suffer is because of Adam & Eve. I believe it is the nature of the material world that causes suffering. Also, all humans have a lower selfish nature and that causes people to do evil and cause suffering to themselves and others. By deductive reasoning then, after we die and go to a spiritual world, there will be no more suffering because we will not have to negotiate the material world and we will not have the free will to do evil and cause suffering.

I do not believe in the physical resurrection of bodies from graves. I believe that the body once dead remains dead and decomposes. When we die the soul leaves the body and goes to a purely spiritual world where it takes on some kind of new form, a spiritual body comprised of heavenly elements that exist in that realm. Everyone has an eternal soul, on no matter what religion they are and no matter whether they believe in God or not. That soul will continue to progress in the spiritual world for eternity. The soul will have a different starting point from which it progresses depending upon its spiritual qualities at the time of death.

You said: “when all past relationships -- between brothers and sisters, loving parents and children, dear friends -- will be restored.” I believe people will be reunited with friends and loved ones, but what about people who had no loving relationships to have restored?

You said: “Keep in mind, though, that individuals have only had to endure 70, or 80, or 90 years.” Have you ever suffered, I mean really suffered? Have you ever been clinically depressed, suicidal? I think you might be singing a different tune if you had. Just because we will be freed from suffering after we die that does not negate the suffering we have to endure in this material realm of existence. Moreover, some people suffer a lot more than others and often it is not because they deserved to suffer. Some people slip through the cracks because not all people have the same resources or ability to get help. How to you explain that? Why does God allow innocent people to suffer? I have some explanations from my religion but that still does not make suffering magically disappear

What about people who have nobody to turn to and no belief in a God? I believe we should show forth mercy, compassion and kindness towards every living creature, unless they have private selfish motives. That is what God has entrusted us to do, because God is not going to do it, at least not in this mortal world... Indeed, we are on our own and God does not intervene, at least not in any way that is perceptible.

@Skwim,

From the RCC:
"How to read the account of the fall

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265"

(Whaddya know, they're using Scriptures!)

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

But last night, I was watching a video of a debate between Dawkins and Cardinal Pell, from Australia, and Pell said A&E were myths!

He's a cardinal, and doesn't support what his own religion teaches?! And he's a leader in it? Sad, very sad. It seems that many of the Australian Catholic people are "skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd"! -- Matthew 9:36

(And Dawkins immediately asked, "How did original sin begin, then?" Very astute question. [Pell never answered.])