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"America's Post-Christian Culture"

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You can call anything Biblical you wish, but your high numbers indicate a focus on membership goals and quotas. The liberals are the better scholars in my opinion, and I have been around long enough and seen enough to know. Weeds grow faster than plants, so don't be so quick to take growth as a good sign on its own. As for abortion, the liberal Christians do a better job preventing them.

By "members and quotas" you must have meant, "biblicists are evangelical, liberals are aborting children, reducing potential church membership".

And so on. "Weeds and plants" was a poor choice of analogy since Jesus said the weeds are the nonbelievers and that He is the sole true vine.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
By "members and quotas" you must have meant, "biblicists are evangelical, liberals are aborting children, reducing potential church membership".

And so on. "Weeds and plants" was a poor choice of analogy since Jesus said the weeds are the nonbelievers and that He is the sole true vine.
Concerning abortion I think definitely liberal Christians are more effective in preventing them, because they are not focusing on making things illegal beyond what is reasonably possible. I think that these days it is the conservative so-called biblicists who spin their wheels on pointless endeavors such as making illegal things that aren't even illegal in the bible. A liberal approach is to do what the Bible does in this case, which is to provide for orphans and women in their distress and also to leave certain matters up to the midwives. Then the women will not feel pressed about the issue, and more babies will live. Another liberal thing is to let people divorce in accordance with scripture. Of course I do not call you a weed but point out that growth is not good all on its own. In fact the census is discouraged in the Bible, and a good shepherd leaves behind ninety-nine to search for one. That is a liberal approach, too.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Survey data indicates that most of the decline in Christianity in the US is due to young people leaving the faith. Are Young People Really Leaving Christianity? | Cold Case Christianity

Survey data of young people also provides clues as to why they're leaving. Six Reasons Young Christians Leave Church

Reason #1 – Churches seem overprotective.
Reason #2 – Teens’ and twentysomethings’ experience of Christianity is shallow.
Reason #3 – Churches come across as antagonistic to science.
Reason #4 – Young Christians’ church experiences related to sexuality are often simplistic, judgmental.
Reason #5 – They wrestle with the exclusive nature of Christianity.
Reason #6 – The church feels unfriendly to those who doubt.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Concerning abortion I think definitely liberal Christians are more effective in preventing them, because they are not focusing on making things illegal beyond what is reasonably possible. I think that these days it is the conservative so-called biblicists who spin their wheels on pointless endeavors such as making illegal things that aren't even illegal in the bible. A liberal approach is to do what the Bible does in this case, which is to provide for orphans and women in their distress and also to leave certain matters up to the midwives. Then the women will not feel pressed about the issue, and more babies will live. Another liberal thing is to let people divorce in accordance with scripture. Of course I do not call you a weed but point out that growth is not good all on its own. In fact the census is discouraged in the Bible, and a good shepherd leaves behind ninety-nine to search for one. That is a liberal approach, too.

I'm unsure how to respond to someone who thinks that divorce (creating more single-parent families) will limit the number of abortions. That makes no sense to me.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm unsure how to respond to someone who thinks that divorce (creating more single-parent families) will limit the number of abortions. That makes no sense to me.
Ah, so its ad-hominem attacks now. Ok. Then I'm not sure how to appeal to someone who thinks oppression saves instead of mercy.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I believe that it's a matter of people simply becoming more cultured and educated in the information age.
I largely agree.

Increased possibilities of transportation and communication also play a role, IMO. It was not that long ago that you pretty much had to reach some form of common understanding with the people geographically close to you. Such is no longer the case, and people find themselves increasingly capable to simply disregard what not long ago used to be necessary consuses.

Current mainstream churches are just not well equipped to deal with that cultural change.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Christianity is in decline because because most people, including Christians are biblically illiterate making them prone to believe every teaching or idea that comes along, besides the fact that the scriptures indicate a falling away from the faith before the tribulation and return of Christ.
"Judaism is in decline because most people, including Jews are scripturally illiterate making them prone to believe every teaching or idea that comes along." -- Jews around Jesus' time
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Ah, so its ad-hominem attacks now. Ok. Then I'm not sure how to appeal to someone who thinks oppression saves instead of mercy.

How is it an ad hom to question a fact you put forth? Single moms have more abortions than wed moms, and you suggested easier divorce will help the abortion rate. Jesus spoke against abortion and against divorce as they go together.

Also, you have switched words like oppression and mercy for words like lawful, unlawful and moral. It is not mercy to help someone terminate another's life, it is unlawful and immoral.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
and you suggested easier divorce will help the abortion rate.
You put it on me as an ad hom after I mentioned that liberal is more biblical, since there are no bible laws against abortion and the bible allows divorce, unlike many so-called biblicists who forbid remarriage and who work to illegalize abortion. Where the Bible leaves things to God, non-liberals seem to try taking the law into their own hands making all kinds of things illegal for everyone and not just for Christians. They are like librarians who have escaped and have started shushing in the streets.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You put it on me as an ad hom after I mentioned that liberal is more biblical, since there are no bible laws against abortion and the bible allows divorce, unlike many so-called biblicists who forbid remarriage and who work to illegalize abortion. Where the Bible leaves things to God, non-liberals seem to try taking the law into their own hands making all kinds of things illegal for everyone and not just for Christians. They are like librarians who have escaped and have started shushing in the streets.

Telling you a fact - divorce leads to abortion rather than curbing it - should be not confused with an ad hom attack. I don't make ad hom attacks--or at least not for many years now. :)

There are Bible laws against abortion and the Bible allows divorce for adultery if the offended party cannot come to forgive their straying spouse.

The Bible does leave things to God as you wrote, but not treating people they way they themselves want to be treated, for example, "Hey, killing your child will lead to pain and hurt for you, can I help you? Can we make the law better for you? Can I adopt your baby?"

Liberal like condoms and abortion and other libertine behavior, which is why the words are similar. Christians like to be aware of sin and help other people not sin and suffer worse on Earth or anywhere else.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Telling you a fact - divorce leads to abortion rather than curbing it - should be not confused with an ad hom attack. I don't make ad hom attacks--or at least not for many years now. :)

There are Bible laws against abortion and the Bible allows divorce for adultery if the offended party cannot come to forgive their straying spouse.

The Bible does leave things to God as you wrote, but not treating people they way they themselves want to be treated, for example, "Hey, killing your child will lead to pain and hurt for you, can I help you? Can we make the law better for you? Can I adopt your baby?"

Liberal like condoms and abortion and other libertine behavior, which is why the words are similar. Christians like to be aware of sin and help other people not sin and suffer worse on Earth or anywhere else.
Again, calling liberals libertines is not an argument but an ad hominem attack. Misrepresenting liberals as people who think divorce decreases abortion is an ad hominem attack. This is the bulk of your argument?

Alleging that there are Bible laws against abortion does not create any, and non liberals historically, repeatedly take things in the direction of illegalizing almost anything for example: gambling, drinking, dancing, makeup, Christmas trees, Halloween parties. It never works, never decreases evil but they just keep ignoring the Bible on this point. I guess they are just...I don't know. I recommend to them Colossians 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." Not long ago in Virginia Beach, VA it was illegal to buy things on Sundays, but liberal Christians using reason and understanding which are not evil, worked together with other people to vote those blue laws down. They were harsh and had the appearance of wisdom but lacked any power. This is the same with extreme ant-abortion stances which do not take into account how to actually prevent and decrease abortions. Voting for corrupt jerks who make big promises is not an effective or spiritual means of fighting abortion.

If a squirrel could talk they'd outlaw that. They also invent taxes for Christians such as the tithe. Tithe is a Jewish tax for people living in Israel, but somehow non-liberals say everyone needs to pay 10% to the ministry. Why accuse liberal Christians of evil when you should just follow the money?

Somebody needs to draw a line, and liberal Christian does according to Bible principles and teachings. For this we are called non-Christians, or is it because we threaten the tithe? God forbid someone should not get his paycheck for doing almost nothing each week.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Anyone who's even moderately culturally savy is aware of Christianity's decline. People have been leaving it in striking numbers, all the while there's been an upsurge in those who profess atheism, agnosticism, or simply don't claim any belief at all.

"In the seven years between 2007 and 2014 the percentage of Christians in America fell by 8 percentage points to 70%. (Protestants comprise 46.5% , Catholics, 20.8%, and Muslims make up 1.0%)

About 5 million fewer Americans now identify as Christian compared to when the study was conducted in 2007.

It was discovered that this trend occurred in all regions of the US and among all ages and demographics.

In the South, those not-affiliated with religion - or as the researchers call them, "nones" - rose to 19% of the population, while in the Northeast they climbed to 25%.
source


03b7b6e047894340b768e880d67e0b09---years-christianity.jpg

And the salient point here is that the loss among Christians is exchanged for the increase among the unaffiliated.

PF_15.05.05_RLS2_1_310px.png


My question: WHY?

What has White Mainline Christianity been doing wrong that it's losing members at such an alarming rate?

Christian leadership has lost the trust of the people. The Protestants lost their trust of the Catholic church and thousands of denominations pop up based on individual beliefs. I don't think it's anything new.

Lots of other beliefs available to invest yourself in now.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Again, calling liberals libertines is not an argument but an ad hominem attack. Misrepresenting liberals as people who think divorce decreases abortion is an ad hominem attack. This is the bulk of your argument?

Alleging that there are Bible laws against abortion does not create any, and non liberals historically, repeatedly take things in the direction of illegalizing almost anything for example: gambling, drinking, dancing, makeup, Christmas trees, Halloween parties. It never works, never decreases evil but they just keep ignoring the Bible on this point. I guess they are just...I don't know. I recommend to them Colossians 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." Not long ago in Virginia Beach, VA it was illegal to buy things on Sundays, but liberal Christians using reason and understanding which are not evil, worked together with other people to vote those blue laws down. They were harsh and had the appearance of wisdom but lacked any power. This is the same with extreme ant-abortion stances which do not take into account how to actually prevent and decrease abortions. Voting for corrupt jerks who make big promises is not an effective or spiritual means of fighting abortion.

If a squirrel could talk they'd outlaw that. They also invent taxes for Christians such as the tithe. Tithe is a Jewish tax for people living in Israel, but somehow non-liberals say everyone needs to pay 10% to the ministry. Why accuse liberal Christians of evil when you should just follow the money?

Somebody needs to draw a line, and liberal Christian does according to Bible principles and teachings. For this we are called non-Christians, or is it because we threaten the tithe? God forbid someone should not get his paycheck for doing almost nothing each week.

I'm unsure why we're discussing tithing now. And calling a liberal a liberal or a conservative a conservative isn't an ad hom.

I'm unsure what Colossians 2, discussing regulations that cannot stop sinners from sinning, has to do with abortion, unless you are saying abortion is sinful. Then it should be legislated against (much legislation is designed to prevent what Christians call sin).
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
unless you are saying abortion is sinful. Then it should be legislated against
Not everything terrible can be outlawed, and not everything sinful should be illegal either. Abortion is a good example of this, not that we need additional examples. Another one: debtor's prison. What a stupid idea that was, and yet it did make something sinful illegal. It made a sin illegal yet for some reason was not effective in preventing the sin and actually encouraged it.

I'm unsure why we're discussing tithing now. And calling a liberal a liberal or a conservative a conservative isn't an ad hom.
I'm not sure what you are referring to. I don't know why you would even bring up the subject unless you wanted to change the subject to be about that. Lets stick to the main issues like the ineffectiveness of prohibition laws and their relation to Colossians 2:23, such regulations appearing to be effective but actually being ineffective.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Not everything terrible can be outlawed, and not everything sinful should be illegal either. Abortion is a good example of this, not that we need additional examples. Another one: debtor's prison. What a stupid idea that was, and yet it did make something sinful illegal. It made a sin illegal yet for some reason was not effective in preventing the sin and actually encouraged it.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. I don't know why you would even bring up the subject unless you wanted to change the subject to be about that. Lets stick to the main issues like the ineffectiveness of prohibition laws and their relation to Colossians 2:23, such regulations appearing to be effective but actually being ineffective.

It sounds like you're saying abortion is legal yet sinful. I agree. Why then are we arguing?

As for Colossians 2:23, it's talking about everything from self-flagellation to fad diets as ineffective against pangs, sinful cravings. True!

But Colossians isn't saying anything like, "Aw, they sin anyway, so why add legislation to thwart evil behavior." The Bible says quite the opposite, actually!
 
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