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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I assume then that this

2a89a91bf4a2c380bca9a895e4e3b9c6--luxury-life-deep-thoughts.jpg

is part of god's notion of dressing and keeping the earth.
animated-eye-image-0116.gif


.
No... that's man's notion. Let me ask you a question... with all the billionairs, the gold, the silver and the millions of tons of wasted food... didn't man have the capacity to not let this happen?

Having lived in Venezuela where there is gold, silver and black gold as well as fertile land, the ONLY reason there are places like above is because man hoards and not because God has not blessed.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I think we covered that one before. He has already given it. What we do with it is a differen point.
No I have laid my hands on and prayed for plenty people in Jesus name. No Miracle took place as scripture promised. God doesn't give the graces he said he would give
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
No... that's man's notion.

So, what is god's notion of dressing and keeping the earth, particularly in light of having saddled us with all the accompanying consequences of original sin?

Let me ask you a question... with all the billionairs, the gold, the silver and the millions of tons of wasted food... didn't man have the capacity to not let this happen?
Not with having the been burdened with avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc.

Having lived in Venezuela where there is gold, silver and black gold as well as fertile land, the ONLY reason there are places like above is because man hoards and not because God has not blessed.
Just what blessing did god lay on mankind that is suppose to defeat its hoarding, avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc.? Whatever it is it isn't working.

.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No I have laid my hands on and prayed for plenty people in Jesus name. No Miracle took place as scripture promised. God doesn't give the graces he said he would give

I still may not agree, unless we think Jesus didn't have the grace.

"And he could there do no mighty work, ...
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Wasn't his fault... it was the people he prayed for's fault.

We are commanded to simply pray in faith... the other person also has a part to play as per the example of Jesus.

Then, we also have a part:

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

If we don't believe, we can also prevent it from happening.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Can I give a qualified "yes"? If we define what is good and bad accordingly since one person can say something is good while someone else can say it is bad.
You can give the "yes", but I can't accept it. The only way that God can ONLY be credited with "good" is if, by his very definition/nature/being His acts are what define the term "good". Meaning that He can only "do no wrong" because he is God, and He decides what is "right" and "wrong" - that he basically OWNS the concepts "right" and "wrong" and can do with them what he pleases. However, that view makes God out to be pretty much totalitarian, and there is no hope that anything we say or do will hold sway with God. You even seem to recognize that people can hold different, subjective opinions on what is "good" or "bad". There isn't much difference in God deciding for us what is good or bad (without ever having engaged us in any discussions on the topic) and God simply being "right" no matter what He does. He could change "good" at any time and we would be expected to follow suit.

Just imagine - as God is held to be a "father" figure of sorts - just imagine if your own father never, ever accepted any criticism at all from you. In fact, what if to criticize your father possibly incurred punishment? This would mean your father could make a mistake that affects you negatively - possibly even a terrible one - and never even feel the need to apologize. In reality, there are people who have just such relationships with their fathers... and do you think those people would call their relationship with a father like that "good?"

Yes... inspiration comes from God but what man does with it comes from man. The catalytic converter was created in 1930 (if I am not mistaken) but wasn't required until 1975... God's fault? Or man's fault! When could we have started planting a tree when we logged an area? Man's fault or God's fault when He told man to dress the earth?
And yet many claim that God knows exactly what we'd be doing with that inspiration anyway. So, He is at least an enabler of all of the things we do that end up being "bad" for ourselves or other beings of the planet, isn't He? Perhaps you don't hold that God is omniscient, and knows the future - fine. He still continues to give us such "inspiration" knowing that we have either squandered it, or taken wrongful advantage of it in the past.

So, basically, I will still hold on to that position within context of Christian scripture and interpretation.
As you are, obviously, freely able to do. As I am freely able to reject it, and hold that God either:
  1. exists as a poor example of moral judgment from a human perspective, is totalitarian, and wishes to simply decide what morality is for us and impose His will without a single word being able to be gotten in edge-wise from the actual creatures being held to the standard
  2. simply does not exist - my preferred, and truthfully believed scenario
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So, what is god's notion of dressing and keeping the earth, particularly in light of having saddled us with all the accompanying consequences of original sin?

Not with having the been burdened with avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc.

Just what blessing did god lay on mankind that is suppose to defeat its hoarding, avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc.? Whatever it is it isn't working.

.
That is a victims mentality.

If it isn't working it isn't because God didn't give man the ability, it is because man isn't exercising his ability.

If you have conquered "avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc." then any man can conquer it. If they don't, it is man's fault not God's.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I still may not agree, unless we think Jesus didn't have the grace.

"And he could there do no mighty work, ...
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Wasn't his fault... it was the people he prayed for's fault.

We are commanded to simply pray in faith... the other person also has a part to play as per the example of Jesus.

Then, we also have a part:

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

If we don't believe, we can also prevent it from happening.
I have prayed for the faith to move mountains. Faith is a gift from God. If I have a lack of faith, it is because God never gave the faith I pray for. I'll keep asking for it.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
That is a victims mentality.
Like those who see a bullet hole in someone's chest and realizes he's been shot, it doesn't take being a victim to understand what's happened.

If it isn't working it isn't because God didn't give man the ability, it is because man isn't exercising his ability.
This is like giving man the ability to walk, but chaining his feet to the floor, and then blaming him for not exercising his ability to walk.

If you have conquered "avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc." then any man can conquer it. If they don't, it is man's fault not God's.
Gee, wouldn't it be neat if we all had equally great abilities in everything? Of course it would, BUT WE DON'T. Half the population in the world has an IQ below average. Not everyone has optimally functioning body parts. Not every one goes through life with high ambitions and is psychologically healthy. Not everyone has the same needs that cry to be fulfilled. Just because I can overcome my need for a protective, supernatural, father figure doesn't mean everyone can. And RF membership is proof of that. Think all of these "handicaps" were chosen, or can be overcome? Think again.

.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have prayed for the faith to move mountains. Faith is a gift from God. If I have a lack of faith, it is because God never gave the faith I pray for. I'll keep asking for it.
Actually, faith is our because He has already given it.

Think of it this way... we all have the same amount of muscles... but some are bigger on some bodies than others because they exercised them not because they have a greater number of muscles. Everybody is dealt the same amount of muscles. Who exercises them is the one who has BIGGER muscles.

God has given us faith: Rom 12;3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Notice that God has already dealt to us the measure of faith. Not something you ask for because God has already dealt it to every man.

But Romans 10:17 says "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God". That is something we do. We get bigger faith by hearing and hearing and hearing and doing because "faith without works is dead".

So the responsibility is on our part to increase our faith and exercise our faith. We increase our faith by hearing and we exercise by doing.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Like those who see a bullet hole in someone's chest and realizes he's been shot, it doesn't take being a victim to understand what's happened.


This is like giving man the ability to walk, but chaining his feet to the floor, and then blaming him for not exercising his ability to walk.


Gee, wouldn't it be neat if we all had equally great abilities in everything? Of course it would, BUT WE DON'T. Half the population in the world has an IQ below average. Not everyone has optimally functioning body parts. Not every one goes through life with high ambitions and is psychologically healthy. Not everyone has the same needs that cry to be fulfilled. Just because I can overcome my need for a protective, supernatural, father figure doesn't mean everyone can. And RF membership is proof of that. Think all of these "handicaps" were chosen, or can be overcome? Think again.

.

OK.. so man is not responsible. Although there is enough wealth to supply everyone, even though there is enough food to feed everyone, it isn't man who is making that hapopen. God is forcing people to hoard it, steal it, waste it, abuse it and misuse it.

Got it!!! You have convinced me totally.

And, of course, half the population has an IQ below average because you are the master in knowing all things and can substantiate it with hard evidence. I know that you are the one with the biggest IQ here on RF. I am just hoping to become like you when I grow up.

Or is it because man hasn't helped people become educated?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I remember when our 12 year old granddaughter came back from Honduras. When she went into a Walmart and saw all the food, she broke down and cried because she knew of all the lack in Honduras.

The family now sponsors a child.
This is my favorite thing about organized religion. The organization.

Many years back, my partner and I sponsored a little girl in Haiti. We committed to 12 years of several hundred dollars a year. We would never have done that if it hadn't been a program through a church community that we knew and trusted. We knew the volunteers who ran the program. We knew how hard they worked to make every dime help the child, no "administrative expenses". I would never have done that with some faceless NGO, with no accountability to me personally. I knew what that group was up to because they were my friends.

Hardly anyone can do charitable works like a church.
Tom
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm sure that we basically believe what we believe... and I am fine with that so that we both understand that we can still be amicable with differing viewpoints (which I believe you are that type of person)

So my answer is just to share my position... as you said "As you are, obviously, freely able to do. As I am freely able to reject it" in which we both subscribe to.


You can give the "yes", but I can't accept it. The only way that God can ONLY be credited with "good" is if, by his very definition/nature/being His acts are what define the term "good". Meaning that He can only "do no wrong" because he is God, and He decides what is "right" and "wrong" - that he basically OWNS the concepts "right" and "wrong" and can do with them what he pleases.
That He owns the concepts of "right" and "wrong", I can agree with. That He can do with them what He pleases... I would disagree.

If He said "lying is wrong", He doesn't lie.

However, that view makes God out to be pretty much totalitarian, and there is no hope that anything we say or do will hold sway with God.
I can understand how that would be a logical conclussion. BUT ( :D I'm sure you knew that was coming", I would disagree with that position.)

Take, for instance, God and Abraham in Gen 18 as it appears that you can talk to God and what you say can alter outcomes.

You even seem to recognize that people can hold different, subjective opinions on what is "good" or "bad". There isn't much difference in God deciding for us what is good or bad (without ever having engaged us in any discussions on the topic) and God simply being "right" no matter what He does. He could change "good" at any time and we would be expected to follow suit.
I don't think we are talking apples and apples here. Where were you and I when the dictates were established?

Or for that matter, in the world we have laws that say you can get married at 11, 15, 18 or marry a child if you want. And we want to have our opinions as what morality should be? Hey, we can't even do that in one country let alone as mankind.

So, yes, He had every right to set the terms.

Just imagine - as God is held to be a "father" figure of sorts - just imagine if your own father never, ever accepted any criticism at all from you. In fact, what if to criticize your father possibly incurred punishment? This would mean your father could make a mistake that affects you negatively - possibly even a terrible one - and never even feel the need to apologize. In reality, there are people who have just such relationships with their fathers... and do you think those people would call their relationship with a father like that "good?"
As flawed humans... you are correct.

And yet many claim that God knows exactly what we'd be doing with that inspiration anyway. So, He is at least an enabler of all of the things we do that end up being "bad" for ourselves or other beings of the planet, isn't He?
I don't think that if A then B automatically means C since we are free will spiritual agents with self determination.

Even our laws dictate this point. I taught my son to drive safely and not exceed the speed limit. I gave him a car since he is in college and needs to get there and back. He exceeded the speed limit and got a ticket. I am not classified as the enabler. My son did wrong because he chose to do wrong and he reaped the results.

Perhaps you don't hold that God is omniscient, and knows the future - fine. He still continues to give us such "inspiration" knowing that we have either squandered it, or taken wrongful advantage of it in the past.
Certainly you are making me think....................

I guess it is how one want to look at it. Suppose someone knew beforehand that their grandson was going to invent a medicine that would save 1 milliion people over time. However, suppose he also knew beforehand that their son was going to have this medicine-child illegitamately and leave the mother and child and squander his life away into nothingness. Do you not have the child because of what he will become? Or do you have the child because you know that the future generations are contingent on the birth of the grandson the medicine-child?

I think we would have the child anyway.

God may have known that there was going to be many Kings of Israel and Judah that would be evil, but He also knew that The Word needed to come as a man to save future generations.

Each person has his own free will -- it is God's gift to mankind. What we do with it is up to us. If we exceed the speed limit and get a fine, it is our fault not his. IMV

As you are, obviously, freely able to do. As I am freely able to reject it,
I can respec that
and hold that God either:
  1. exists as a poor example of moral judgment from a human perspective, is totalitarian, and wishes to simply decide what morality is for us and impose His will without a single word being able to be gotten in edge-wise from the actual creatures being held to the standard
  2. simply does not exist - my preferred, and truthfully believed scenario

Understand and respect your position though, of course, not in agreement for above reasons.

I HAVE enjoyed the time we have discussed this. Appreciate your demeanor. :)
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
OK.. so man is not responsible. Although there is enough wealth to supply everyone, even though there is enough food to feed everyone, it isn't man who is making that hapopen. God is forcing people to hoard it, steal it, waste it, abuse it and misuse it.
Yup. Who else but god chains some people to the floor? Leaving them mentally short-changed, blind, and born into poverty.

Got it!!! You have convinced me totally.
Well good for you.

And, of course, half the population has an IQ below average because you are the master in knowing all things and can substantiate it with hard evidence.
Errr. . . .not because I'm the the master in knowing all things, although close to it ;), but because it's a statistical fact.

"The scores (called standard scores) possible on an IQ test are laid out on a bell curve (a.k.a., normal curve) so that the distribution is perfectly symmetrical on both sides. Take a look at this picture:

main-qimg-9caf8559befa47789fe9d08f46e75d49


The center of the curve, which is the mean or average, is 100. On either side, the curve drops off from the high point at exactly the same rate. As such, 50% of the population falls on on either side of the average (100). Of course, that includes people who have a score of 100 as well. If you look at 99 and lower (or inversely, 101 and higher), then that accounts for about 47.3% on either side.
source


I know that you are the one with the biggest IQ here on RF. I am just hoping to become like you when I grow up.
Ah, changing one's IQ isn't easy and it takes a long time, and the change won't be significant. All in all your IQ is pretty much what you're born with.
Sorry. :shrug:

Or is it because man hasn't helped people become educated?
Takes more than education. For a lot of people it's just plain ol' luck. Born in a hovel in Bangladesh with an IQ of 74 or born in a mansion in Boston with an IQ of 126?

.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yup. Who else but god chains some people to the floor? Leaving them mentally short-changed, blind, and born into poverty.
.
Man. :D

.
Errr. . . .not because I'm the the master in knowing all things, although close to it ;), but because it's a statistical fact.

"The scores (called standard scores) possible on an IQ test are laid out on a bell curve (a.k.a., normal curve) so that the distribution is perfectly symmetrical on both sides. Take a look at this picture:

main-qimg-9caf8559befa47789fe9d08f46e75d49


The center of the curve, which is the mean or average, is 100. On either side, the curve drops off from the high point at exactly the same rate. As such, 50% of the population falls on on either side of the average (100). Of course, that includes people who have a score of 100 as well. If you look at 99 and lower (or inversely, 101 and higher), then that accounts for about 47.3% on either side.
source



Ah, changing one's IQ isn't easy and it takes a long time, and the change won't be significant. All in all your IQ is pretty much what you're born with.
Sorry. :shrug:

.
LOL... I took a statistics class so let me tear this one appart.

1) With 7 billion people on the earth... how true is this graph? Did they do all of India? No. Did they include Cuba which is a poor country but rich in education? no.
2) Obviously 49% will always be lower than 51%... duh :) but what if the average isn't 100 but 120?
3) Have they changed the tests? (yes)
4) Are tests many time in error? (Yes). One specifically was an easy question of what went with a cup... the answer was saucer except a good segment of the people tested didn't use saucer with their cups and chose the wrong answer...

So.... so much for your graph. NeeeeEEXT?

Takes more than education. For a lot of people it's just plain ol' luck. Born in a hovel in Bangladesh with an IQ of 74 or born in a mansion in Boston with an IQ of 126?

.

Yes, genetic probabilities does play a role... but even a fisherman named Peter can change his world when anointed by God :D
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Why does God need our faith to work a miracle?

I've tried very hard to exercise as much faith as possible... anymore faith will have to be a Grace from God.

God could speak clearly and enlighten the confused. I don't see why he doesn't.

Regarding my spirituality, I'm still waiting to figure out what is from God and what is delusion.

I'm of the impression that God wants Satan to do his work, because he knew what Satan would do before he ever created him, and he's perfectly capable of destroying all of Satan's works. Yet he doesn't.

The Bible doesn't answer my questions because the Bible often says things that lead people to opposite beliefs. I need understanding that can only come from God. I beg him for it and I do not receive it.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Man. :D

.
LOL... I took a statistics class so let me tear this one appart.

1) With 7 billion people on the earth... how true is this graph? Did they do all of India? No. Did they include Cuba which is a poor country but rich in education? no.
2) Obviously 49% will always be lower than 51%... duh :) but what if the average isn't 100 but 120?
3) Have they changed the tests? (yes)
4) Are tests many time in error? (Yes). One specifically was an easy question of what went with a cup... the answer was saucer except a good segment of the people tested didn't use saucer with their cups and chose the wrong answer...

So.... so much for your graph. NeeeeEEXT?
Good grief!

Assuming you passed the class, I take it it wasn't with flying colors.

Yes, genetic probabilities does play a role... but even a fisherman named Peter can change his world when anointed by God :D
But you said,

"If you have conquered "avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc." then any man can conquer it. If they don't, it is man's fault not God's."​

And now your saying that god IS involved. That without god's anointment Peter wouldn't have been able to effect the changes you imply.

I give up.

.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Good grief!

Assuming you passed the class, I take it it wasn't with flying colors.

.
Aced the sucker :D


.
But you said,

"If you have conquered "avarice. selfishness, greed, self indulgence, lust, etc, etc." then any man can conquer it. If they don't, it is man's fault not God's."

And now your saying that god IS involved. That without god's anointment Peter wouldn't have been able to effect the changes you imply.

I give up.

.
LOL... Apples and oranges. No cherry pickiing statement allowed... it's eeeeevil! :D

Have a great day Skwim. Blessings to ya!
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
I'm of the impression that God wants Satan to do his work, because he knew what Satan would do before he ever created him, and he's perfectly capable of destroying all of Satan's works. Yet he doesn't.

The Bible doesn't answer my questions because the Bible often says things that lead people to opposite beliefs. I need understanding that can only come from God. I beg him for it and I do not receive it.
According to the Baha'i Faith Satan represents the lower nature of ourselves. That's why God won't destroy Satan.
 
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