So very true. Glad we could find some common ground after all.
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UC Professor. No evidence in the Bible attributing Satan as being evil.
- Thread starter Twilight Hue
- Start date
So very true. Glad we could find some common ground after all.
Well, as everyone who reads their bible knows, Yahweh states frankly that he creates evil:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
And you can back that up with:
1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
and
Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?
If you choose to disbelieve Yahweh as above, then you have to find another source of evil. The candidates are the other members of the pantheon you get if you're not a monotheist: ─ Yahweh, Jesus, Holy Ghost, Mary and Satan, We've just ruled out Yahweh and Satan, so maybe that's what the Holy Ghost does after hours. Or is there more to Mary than the reports say? Has a hurricane been named after Jesus yet?
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Yes it's bigger than the cranium. Ok it's bigger than that tiny region of the brain that bottlenecks the brain to dysfunction called higher functioning region of the brain.. In that little tiny area Satan is relevant to that little intsy bitsy area only. It doesn't exist outside that specific locality. The question did the ancient writers understand that? Most Indeed they did. THAT IS a lot different than what many seem to think.
Again we agree!!! I am telling ya we live in idiocracy it isn't just religion! Nature's bigger than us.
74x12
Well-Known Member
What about John 8:44?
dfnj
Well-Known Member
I think each of us is responsible for our own acts of evil, People behave badly but people are not inherently evil.
74x12
Well-Known Member
You can't fix stupid. Just because someone's a professor doesn't mean they aren't stupid.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What was stupid about it?
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
If God exists, as I believe he does. What you believe in this regard, I ignore to some degree. I you don't believe God exist, you can do whatever you like without any fear of reward of punishment. That God, if he exists, shall do exactly what he wants is then a chance you have to take.
Here is a little as an answer to you, on the assumption and belief (mine) that God exists:
In this case, there are only two choices, or paths:
God being omnipotent and all knowing even to the point of knowing the thoughts of all, but not to the point of knowing all future!
In choice one, the person accepts that God knows all things and is just, and does what he can to please him. As such certain rewards might be expected, but not post life, after death, in my universe. Death is the return to non existence.
In the second choice, a person thinks (as suggested in this post) that God is evil. Here we have a branching out:
If you have some personal thoughts on the above besides statements that don't say anything except express dissatisfaction with my beliefs, you are welcome to explain what you think.God being omnipotent and all knowing even to the point of knowing the thoughts of all, but not to the point of knowing all future!
In choice one, the person accepts that God knows all things and is just, and does what he can to please him. As such certain rewards might be expected, but not post life, after death, in my universe. Death is the return to non existence.
In the second choice, a person thinks (as suggested in this post) that God is evil. Here we have a branching out:
branch one: God is not evil but just as above, but is unjustly found wicked by some who themselves disobey all his edicts, who makes themselves into an enemy of God, and therefore are found themselves wicked in the eyes of God, and get their just payment of 'the wage of sin is death'. (not hellish torment, but eternal sleep) There might be punishments fitting the crime while that person is alive.
branch two: God is evil, omnipotent, and knows all as defined above. Someone makes themselves an enemy of God. If indeed God is wicked, omnipotent, and knows all - I don't see how that kind of god would not find it most entertaining to inflict all kinds of pain on this kind of individual, while alive and even in some hell of torment after death.
In either case of these two branches, it is a very scary thing if such a God exist to do anything at all that would make him into an enemy.branch two: God is evil, omnipotent, and knows all as defined above. Someone makes themselves an enemy of God. If indeed God is wicked, omnipotent, and knows all - I don't see how that kind of god would not find it most entertaining to inflict all kinds of pain on this kind of individual, while alive and even in some hell of torment after death.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Well the professor's supposition is that there is no evidence in the Bible that satan is evil. I just gave evidence in the Bible that he is evil.
Satan really murdered everyone. He's the one who first tempted mankind to sin(by lying) and thus brought death on us all. If that wasn't bad enough he continues to literally murder people ever since then. Some just for fun and others because they get in his way or hinder his kingdom somehow. Not to mention the angels he managed to convince to become his followers and who're also doomed because of him. He also (foolishly) had Jesus killed along with other fallen angels who all agreed to kill Jesus.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Indeed, putting words in the mouth of God - i.e. prophesying about things he didn't say or such, warranted the death penalty of ancient Israel, and even in Revelation, we are warned not to change what has been given on the pain of death.
However, if putting words in God's mouth warrants the death penalty, so would by logic, also taking words out of his mouth and invalidate them. Some churches are guilty of both. Other people are also guilty of this.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
People who haven't studied things in the Bible extensively tend to misuse the material a lot. That doesn't mean you don't have the right to use your material and ask questions about it, or make points with it.
It is through much study that I became non-denominational.
One of the oft used unbeliever arguments turn around what Jesus taught versus what Christians teach and even attacks the very material in much of the NT. This kind of thing is where it becomes a debate by an unbeliever about things believers have been given -- is a waste of time to engage the unbeliever in this kind of case. He has no interest in becoming a believer and only acts as satan does. Why should I want to engage in this kind of exchange! No thank you. He has no right or business getting into my hair and belief system.
On other things, if it is matter of having something that needs to be explained, questions are accepted and happily answered.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Satan didn't lie in the garden. He told the truth about the tree. The tree of knowledge of good and evil cannot kill you. Satan comes off as being honest. At least in terms of dialogue, but you could say he withheld some information provided of course he knew God's intent upon Adam and Eve's transgression, but there's nothing there to say he did know beforehand what God would do.
Nobody was really murdered by Satan anywhere in the entire Bible either.
If you were to use the book of Job, remember that God sanctions the murder of Job's family. Yes Satan killed according to the story line, but is it really murder if God sanctioned it?
In fact, it would further seem Satan would kill no one unless its being approved by God.
The reason why I say that is who in the very end does the actual killing?
Satan didn't kill Jesus at all. The Romans did, and even then, Jesus didn't actually and truly die, did he?
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Well, I agree on one point, that is that if God wants to punish someone, let him do it. We don't live in ancient Israel with divine laws that are enforced by the nation and its justice system.
While there are many times I would love to dictate what I would like God to do for me, I realize that is not the kind of genie, God, we have. I have also through scripture, and life, seen that God is perfectly just. That does not mean that bad things do not happen to me, on the contrary.
However, your idea that (if I understand what you said) that God is incapable of acting and doing things physical in our reality, you will find this seriously wrong, and this concept can only come if you disregard all of Israel's history, and that prior to Israel.
Again, it is your right. But, if an ant made itself an enemy of mine, I would squash it. Hope you realize who the ant is - metaphorically speaking. Of course, if you believe not in God, you will take your chances.
Spice
StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
I think of Satan, by whatever name, as the "balance" in our worldly journey(s) to discover God. Although from just observing our surroundings, we can see opposites, of sorts, are found necessary for the continuation of life (ie. sunshine and rain), but here's a biblical perspective from Ecclesiastes 7:
13Consider what God has done:
Who can straighten
what he has made crooked?
14When times are good, be happy;
but when times are bad, consider this:
God has made the one
as well as the other.
Therefore, no one can discover
anything about their future.
15In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these:
the righteous perishing in their righteousness,
and the wicked living long in their wickedness.
16Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?
17Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time?
18It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
If we go by Judaism, there is no possibly way for Satan to be evil. If we go by the NT, he still kind of performed the same duties, but he went from angel of god to "public enemy #1." But with no evidence beyond accusations.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well from a theological standpoint, a question rises in asking what if it's really the other way around?
I mean look closely, here we have a God actively doing all sorts of horrible, and terrifying things to people in most of the storyline that don't believe in him and yet says that he's good and righteous.
On the other hand, Satan is another deity on the scene who hasn't really murdered anybody out of his own accord or displayed anger in the Bible narratives worthy of note along the same lines as God's well known multiple acts of genocide and extreme brutality by his followers not only on to others, but to themselves as well. Satan nonetheless gets labeled as being evil, a liar, and a murder when the Bible has very little to say in way of Satan's actions themselves in a spectacular contrast.
People do say within Abrahamic religion that life's a test by God, so maybe it's a test to see if they can distinguish truly for themselves what deity is good and what deity is bad when coerced to follow the one labeled as righteous when in fact the narratives indicates that at it's core the most powerful deity is actually evil.
If I was still theist, I might have just as well had exercised blind faith "against my better judgement" and chose to forray with Satan who in the Bible's narratives had invoked nowhere near the capacity of brutality and terror at the "Hands of an angry God".
Maybe that great leap of faith with one risking all means something different in the context that you ought to leap against the grain of what is being said and reinforced to you, in spite of a punitive barrier that keeps you corralled in by fear. Such as hell internal punishments excetera.
I've heard some alternate branches of Christianity have developed the opinion that God and Satan are actually both conducting a great test together as a team, to see and test the capabilities of Mankind's capability for self discernment with people who decide to go against an malevolent authority figure portrayed as being good when it's actions show clearly the opposite, versus a benevolent authority figure touted as being evil and murderous whereas it's actions show the opposite, and then seeing if threats of things like hell and internal damnation would sway people in one direction or the other based on what either they were told, or freelee using their own discernment to decide for themselves what and who is actually evil and what and who is actually good.
I don't know what this group was called, but if there wasn't any such group around, I would have probably started my own religion on that basis during that time as I still believed in deities back then.
I think it's a false dilemma. I can think of many other options, from deistic options (god is omnipotent but doesnt care about the affairs of mortals), God isn't omnipotent at all but just a powerful but flawed being, God is omnipotent but the bible is not a true account of his actions (like a documentary of a true person seasoned heavily with fiction). But that's another thread for another time.
Obviously I don't believe a god or gods exists, my outlook is not too dissimilar from your option one since I don't believe in an afterlife. And I don't find death scary so...
In your second scenario, I'm not an authoritarian. I don't believe might makes right. Torture would be a drag but I wouldn't fear sticking to my principals rather than kowtowing to an evil being. I won't be frightened into subservience.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Most things religious depend on the authority that a person accepts for definitive. When each person goes by a different definitive authority, agreement cannot be reached.
I see what you are saying, and in a philosophical setting - that might give a few interesting exchanges. Nonetheless, I accept the Gospel of Salvation through Christ and its packaging. This is what I hope for, a Paradise earth under one just government ending all wars, and causing the earth, and society to become harmonious, peaceful, etc. In this scenario, satan and his angels are gone, the fallen angels not under his hand are judged individually: some going back to serve God, others to be erased.