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Woe to those through whom come stumbling blocks

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Who are those in which the “stumbling blocks”, come? (Matthew 16:23) Peter would be the main culprit, being the “worthless shepherd” of Zechariah 11:17. Another one, trying to annul the commandments, being Paul (Zechariah 11:10), who would be called “least” (Matthew 5:19), being that Paul means “little”, and the superlative of little is “least”. Paul is always the foremost /superlative of all things (Timothy 1:15). Because of Paul's lawlessness (Matthew 13:39-42), at "the end of the age", the followers of he and Peter, the "stumbling block" of (Matthew 16:23), will be gathered up, and the angels will "cast them into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:41-42).

Who are those who cause the “little ones” to stumble? And what is their fate? Their fate is that it would have been better if they had drowned in the depth of the sea (Matthew 18:6), and anyone spreading the false gospel of grace, and causing the “little ones” who had inherited the kingdom of heaven to stumble, would face the “woe” of God (Matthew 18:7), and it would be better if they had cut off their hands and feet, than to be cast into the “eternal fire” (Matthew 18:8).
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Christianity is so funny.
Their statements challenge everything that Christianity is established on: Paul and Simon's ministry was the place people were called Christians (Acts 11:26).
Who are those in which the “stumbling blocks”, come?
Did you know Petros (Peter) can mean a small pebble, like one that can trip us up, i.e. a stumbling stone?

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
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Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Who are those in which the “stumbling blocks”, come? (Matthew 16:23) Peter would be the main culprit, being the “worthless shepherd” of Zechariah 11:17. Another one, trying to annul the commandments, being Paul (Zechariah 11:10), who would be called “least” (Matthew 5:19), being that Paul means “little”, and the superlative of little is “least”. Paul is always the foremost /superlative of all things (Timothy 1:15). Because of Paul's lawlessness (Matthew 13:39-42), at "the end of the age", the followers of he and Peter, the "stumbling block" of (Matthew 16:23), will be gathered up, and the angels will "cast them into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:41-42).

Who are those who cause the “little ones” to stumble? And what is their fate? Their fate is that it would have been better if they had drowned in the depth of the sea (Matthew 18:6), and anyone spreading the false gospel of grace, and causing the “little ones” who had inherited the kingdom of heaven to stumble, would face the “woe” of God (Matthew 18:7), and it would be better if they had cut off their hands and feet, than to be cast into the “eternal fire” (Matthew 18:8).
So there is no question to debate since you answered it yourself.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Who are those who cause the “little ones” to stumble? And what is their fate?
My understanding of the way 'fire' is used together with the Lake of Fire, etc. is that it is destructive fire, total destruction.

My understanding of the stumbling is going to bring down the wrath of many here on this site. When we view the way many are denigrading the Bible, the NT and its message of salvation, be they atheists, perhaps those who use higher Bible criticism to put in question everything pertaining to the Christian faith, these clearly stumble many who if encouraged instead of discouraged and pummeled into submission by these active opponents would have retained the faith otherwise. I feel that many of those who bring 'little ones into stumbling' have been identified.

Satan's sin is that while he knows God exists, his anti-faith in which he actively, gleefully, pursues and persecutes those who try to serve God - damns him. In the same way, those who knowingly and unknowingly serve this same Lord of Flies to actively fight the Christian faith and beliefs - deserve nothing but eternal destruction by fire.

It is one thing to be an atheist and believe this without actively fighting against the Christian faith and trying to tear down the foundation it is founded upon. These may escape the wrath of God. After all, the Christian faith came not to convert the world; therefore, we see a large number of other kinds of faith. Not all of these will be judged wicked for sure. Just being an atheist or agnostic would then not be enough to damn a person, it would seem.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Their statements challenge everything that Christianity is established on: Paul and Simon's ministry was the place people were called Christians (Acts 11:26).

Did you know Petros (Peter) can mean a small pebble, like one that can trip us up, i.e. a stumbling stone?

In my opinion. :innocent:


Matthew 16:23,”But he turned and said to Peter (petros), “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling-block to me”.


Keep in mind that the “testimony of Yeshua is the spirit of prophecy” (Revelation 19:10).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
My understanding of the way 'fire' is used together with the Lake of Fire, etc. is that it is destructive fire, total destruction.

My understanding of the stumbling is going to bring down the wrath of many here on this site. When we view the way many are denigrading the Bible, the NT and its message of salvation, be they atheists, perhaps those who use higher Bible criticism to put in question everything pertaining to the Christian faith, these clearly stumble many who if encouraged instead of discouraged and pummeled into submission by these active opponents would have retained the faith otherwise. I feel that many of those who bring 'little ones into stumbling' have been identified.

Satan's sin is that while he knows God exists, his anti-faith in which he actively, gleefully, pursues and persecutes those who try to serve God - damns him. In the same way, those who knowingly and unknowingly serve this same Lord of Flies to actively fight the Christian faith and beliefs - deserve nothing but eternal destruction by fire.

It is one thing to be an atheist and believe this without actively fighting against the Christian faith and trying to tear down the foundation it is founded upon. These may escape the wrath of God. After all, the Christian faith came not to convert the world; therefore, we see a large number of other kinds of faith. Not all of these will be judged wicked for sure. Just being an atheist or agnostic would then not be enough to damn a person, it would seem.


Maybe you should heed (Matthew 7:24) the teachings of Yeshua, rather than those of the lawless Paul (Romans 7:6) & (Matthew 5:19). “The furnace of fire” is not the same as the “lake of fire”. Per Revelation 9:18, only “one third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone”. It was not “total destruction”. Per Zechariah 13:8-9, only two thirds will perish from “all the land”, and I will bring “the third through the fire”. If someone is brought thru the fire, they aren’t destroyed. Maybe chastened, but survivors (Joel 2:31-32) & Jeremiah 30:11).

Your “Christian” faith is a faith built on the foundations of Peter and Paul, the “shepherds” who pastured the “flock doomed for slaughter” (Zechariah 11:7), which was instituted by the beast with two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13:11), Constantine, and is antithetical to Yeshua’s gospel of the kingdom. You can either “come out of her” (Revelation 18:4), or you can continue to “receive of her plagues”. The “her”, being the “daughter of Zion (Zechariah 2:7).

As for your “lord of the flies” that would be the demon spirit of the beast who took up residence in your friend Hussein Obama, and gathered the nations against Israel/Jerusalem (Revelation 16:13-16).
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Satan's sin is that while he knows God exists, his anti-faith in which he actively, gleefully, pursues and persecutes those who try to serve God - damns him. In the same way, those who knowingly and unknowingly serve this same Lord of Flies to actively fight the Christian faith and beliefs - deserve nothing but eternal destruction by fire.

It's too bad there's no way for Satan to attain salvation and regain the love of His creator. Then we can put this whole damn mess to bed once and for all.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Maybe you should heed (Matthew 7:24) the teachings of Yeshua, rather than those of the lawless Paul (Romans 7:6) & (Matthew 5:19). “The furnace of fire” is not the same as the “lake of fire”. Per Revelation 9:18, only “one third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone”. It was not “total destruction”. Per Zechariah 13:8-9, only two thirds will perish from “all the land”, and I will bring “the third through the fire”. If someone is brought thru the fire, they aren’t destroyed. Maybe chastened, but survivors (Joel 2:31-32) & Jeremiah 30:11).

Your “Christian” faith is a faith built on the foundations of Peter and Paul, the “shepherds” who pastured the “flock doomed for slaughter” (Zechariah 11:7), which was instituted by the beast with two horns like a lamb (Revelation 13:11), Constantine, and is antithetical to Yeshua’s gospel of the kingdom. You can either “come out of her” (Revelation 18:4), or you can continue to “receive of her plagues”. The “her”, being the “daughter of Zion (Zechariah 2:7).

As for your “lord of the flies” that would be the demon spirit of the beast who took up residence in your friend Hussein Obama, and gathered the nations against Israel/Jerusalem (Revelation 16:13-16).
Obviously, your opinion of Paul's teachings is different than mine. I am not sure what your reasons are, but it is most likely that we shall disagree. However, if you have a point you want to discuss, you can always tell me what you find wrong with Paul and Peter.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
It's too bad there's no way for Satan to attain salvation and regain the love of His creator. Then we can put this whole damn mess to bed once and for all.
Getting to an end of the various messes that exist globally, locally, and personally - would be greatly desired.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
and anyone spreading the false gospel of grace,

The Bible was written by men. The words were translated by men. The words are interpreted by men. How do you know what is in the Bible is itself not "false gospel of grace."

I'm not saying to be irreverent to God. I'm just not sure the Bible itself is not without some construction flaws. For example:

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

No. 3: A command of Moses:

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:

“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:

“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:

“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:

‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

I would like to see one Christian with a backbone stand up and explain to me Peter 2:18, which implies slavery is morally okay, is the divinely inspired word of our God.

If you are going to claim the Bible is the divine word of God there has to be a higher standard. I think the better message is the Bible is not perfect because it was written by men. But the best way for having reverence for God is a work in progress.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Getting to an end of the various messes that exist globally, locally, and personally - would be greatly desired.

I wasn't thinking selfishly. I was thinking what would Jesus do if he could help Satan regain God's love and salvation.

But let me ask you something. Do you think "messes that exist globally, locally, and personally" are caused by Satan or that Satan is responsible. It sucks to be Satan if you get tagged with all that bad karma!
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
anyone spreading the false gospel of grace
Could you please list reasons why Simon and Paul each contradict Yeshua, and what reasons you find them false.
After 2,018 years the debates should be over!!
Really feel sorry for you; Zoroastrianism predicted this, the Tanakh predicts this, and you sit making fun out of something, that you should have far more knowledge on. :(

In my opinion. :innocent:
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Obviously, your opinion of Paul's teachings is different than mine. I am not sure what your reasons are, but it is most likely that we shall disagree. However, if you have a point you want to discuss, you can always tell me what you find wrong with Paul and Peter.


Paul makes his hypocrisy/leaven, clear enough.

Romans 7:25,” New American Standard Bible
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Paul makes his hypocrisy/leaven, clear enough.

Romans 7:25,” New American Standard Bible
Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
I am not sure what you find wrong with that. None of us can obey the edicts perfectly though some of us desire to. In that sense, we 'with our minds serve God' and with our flesh we sin though not as a practice and because we want to.

As John said, the one who claims to have no sin is a liar, and later, that the one who practices willful deliberate serious sin is a son or daughter of the devil. That pretty much is what Paul also says here.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
After 2,018 years the debates should be over!!
I’ve thought the same thing about theism in general: after thousands of years, nobody’s been able to show that their god(s) even exist, let alone that the god(s) said and did the things they’re claimed to have said and done.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
nobody’s been able to show that their god(s) even exist, let alone that the god(s) said and did the things they’re claimed to have said and done.
Within the religious texts, here is a place between Heaven and Hell, where the demons have taken over rule, and you're like why isn't God here... :confused:

Then when people are so lazy, stubborn, argumentative, unobservant of the things within the religious texts; you take their opinions on it, when those following some of the religions are deemed cursed not to understand their own religious texts.

Its like saying "We've been following the blind people with an upside down manual for thousands of years, and we're still not getting any smarter from their knowledge".

Can give a case of things that have all taken place, that can be objectively shown; yet first we need to recognize we're near Hell, with lots of demons running around for it to make sense.

Like give you a brief example: along comes an angel down here to challenge the religious leaders for murdering messengers, and turning them into sin offerings...

Then the religious leaders convince everyone that murdering the angel sent to stop this action was justifiable, and hardly anyone notices...

Then only near Hell could we make up a religion that murdering an angel, could make someone a more righteous person by accepting it. :oops:

In my opinion
. :innocent:
 
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