How are these Great Beings explained?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I do not see what He said that way and as I read what He believes He does not also.

The Bible still contains the Word of God in Spiritual stories based on events.

Baha'u'llah confirms this, that the Bible is preserved as accurate Spiritual Guidance

Regards Tony

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A spiritual story that didn't actually happen is fiction isn't it? Might be wonderful, might have a great spiritual message, but it's still fiction.

If we carry the discussion into the Jewish Bible, then we have fictional stories about creation and a world-wide flood, but supposedly the people were real? People that lived hundreds of years? So how much fiction, how much fantasy before the story is called religious mythology?

adrian009 said:

90 % of what the Christian's believe, the Baha'is believe too.

Christianity and Islam are not obsolete, as they are based on the Teachings of a Manifestation of God.

Baha'is are proactive in sharing Baha'u'llah's message for humanity, participating in relevant social discourses for today as well as social and economic development. We have a programme for educating peoples of all backgrounds and ages from early childhood. We are setting up neighbourhood children's classes, programmes fro young people, adults classes and devotional meetings. Baha'u'lah's Teachings enable and empower people to live better lives and contribute more meaningfully to their communities.

With a relatively small worldwide community of only 5 - 8 million believers we simply don't have the capacity to 'fix' the world, as broken as it is.

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So a religion that teaches that God is a trinity, that Jesus rose from the dead, that unbelieving sinners will be sent hell, and that Satan is real...that religion is not obsolete?

CG Didymus said:

A spiritual story that didn't actually happen is fiction isn't it? Might be wonderful, might have a great spiritual message, but it's still fiction.

If we carry the discussion into the Jewish Bible, then we have fictional stories about creation and a world-wide flood, but supposedly the people were real? People that lived hundreds of years? So how much fiction, how much fantasy before the story is called religious mythology?

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The Story Happens in Both Worlds CG.

The Power and Majesty is more apparent in the Spiritual World. This is our test of Faith and our Submission to our Creator, that has all dominion and power over us.

This is why a Messenger is rejected by most of Humanity, they perceive they have no power.

It was Christ that was the King of King of his time, how many see Him as a King but by the Spirit?

You will have to take it from here, because in my minds eye I can see nothing but their dominion and grandeur in Gods worlds and this a world worth less than the black in the eye of a dead ant.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

But why did Whitestone leave? Like Ragin Pagin, Siti and so many others? Are people being brought together and feeling the acceptance or being challenged for what they believe and pushed away?

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Hi all - and happy new year! Just to be fair Siti has not left, just taken a hiatus enforced by the need to spend time on the roof (repairs) and other essential activities that had been left until the end of last year - very busy indeed and used the internet only once in the last 3 weeks - and that to check on the progress of some work-related activities. I have, however, stepped out a couple of times earlier in the thread due to frustration - finding that obviously dubious or plainly false Baha'i claims that have been roundly disproven by carefully stated evidence and sound reasoning are simply re-stated as "facts" without any serious attempt to counter the counter-arguments.

To be honest, I find the Baha'i faith really intriguing - I think - but I'm not completely sure of this yet - that studying its development may give us deeper insights into how religious mythologies develop into convincing (at least to many) religious credes. I don't intend to leave this discussion - even if I don't contribute too much for a while now and again - I am fascinated by studying how the faithful respond to demonstrable evidence and sound argumentation against their faith.

There are also, of course, positive aspects - I love the idea of a syncretic religion that takes the bits of this and that faith and weaves them together into a kind of patchwork or mosaic of faith...and if you put that together with the notion of "independent investigation of truth", genuine respect for scientific knowledge and "democratic" administration of a religion, I believe there might be the basis for a genuinely enlightened 21st century religion in there somewhere...but it definitely needs to let go of the special divine revelation thing - at least in the form it has it now...I mean perhaps there is a case for some kind of "divine revelation" - but maybe that is also a bit more democratic - with each one permitted to "prophesy in turn so that everyone may be encouraged and instructed" - 1 Corinthians 14:31 (NIV).

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I will leave it with you to consider CG. I have offered all I can.

Regards Tony

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That sounds like a cop out. The narrative flows from the crucifixion, to the burial, to the empty tomb, to Jesus appearing and saying he has flesh and bone. Made up? Pure fantasy? I'll accept those answers. But to say out of the blue four writers suddenly went into a symbolic story, isn't a very good explanation.

CG Didymus said:

So a religion that teaches that God is a trinity, that Jesus rose from the dead, that unbelieving sinners will be sent hell, and that Satan is real...that religion is not obsolete?

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Pick up a Bible, pick up a Koran, Pick up any Holy Book from any Great Being, lay them next to the writings of the Baha'i Faith and you have the whole story to read.

Now take the name off each book, mix them around, Lay aside mans current thoughts, read and you will find passages in each book that show they are from one source.

There is a book that has done that and even condensed the meanings, it is called the Hidden Words.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The Story Happens in Both Worlds CG.

The Power and Majesty is more apparent in the Spiritual World. This is our test of Faith and our Submission to our Creator, that has all dominion and power over us.

This is why a Messenger is rejected by most of Humanity, they perceive they have no power.

It was Christ that was the King of King of his time, how many see Him as a King but by the Spirit?

You will have to take it from here, because in my minds eye I can see nothing but their dominion and grandeur in Gods worlds and this a world worth less than the black in the eye of a dead ant.

Regards Tony

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Still a cop out. If Baha'is say the resurrection and other things didn't happen, then those things are fictional, right?

siti said:

Hi all - and happy new year! Just to be fair Siti has not left, just taken a hiatus enforced by the need to spend time on the roof (repairs) and other essential activities that had been left until the end of last year - very busy indeed and used the internet only once in the last 3 weeks - and that to check on the progress of some work-related activities. I have, however, stepped out a couple of times earlier in the thread due to frustration - finding that obviously dubious or plainly false Baha'i claims that have been roundly disproven by carefully stated evidence and sound reasoning are simply re-stated as "facts" without any serious attempt to counter the counter-arguments.

To be honest, I find the Baha'i faith really intriguing - I think - but I'm not completely sure of this yet - that studying its development may give us deeper insights into how religious mythologies develop into convincing (at least to many) religious credes. I don't intend to leave this discussion - even if I don't contribute too much for a while now and again - I am fascinated by studying how the faithful respond to demonstrable evidence and sound argumentation against their faith.

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Me too. I'm fascinated by some of their answers. I miss your input, though. You know things about the Baha'i Faith that I've never heard. I'm glad you're still around. Now if Vinayaka stops by, I'll be in total bliss. Symbolically of course.

CG Didymus said:

That sounds like a cop out. The narrative flows from the crucifixion, to the burial, to the empty tomb, to Jesus appearing and saying he has flesh and bone. Made up? Pure fantasy? I'll accept those answers. But to say out of the blue four writers suddenly went into a symbolic story, isn't a very good explanation.

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How many times do you want us to answer this? That is why.

You need to meditate, you need to ask the source for clarity as I have given the answers that are clear to me.

We also offered the one explanation on the story of Adam and Eve, that also likely based on a real life situation, but it is full of symbolisim.

It may be you need the keys to this understanding, the key is the explanations given in the Baha'i Writings.

Thus maybe you need to consider if Baha'u'llah is who He Claims to be. Maybe it is our trust in those explanations that make these topics more clear.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

When you say, "even though we disagree with them on various matters", doesn't that mean someone is right and someone is wrong?

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It depends on whether the individual or group in question claims to possess the truth regarding the matter. If they do, then notifications of who's right and who's wrong would exist. If not, then any divergence on a particular matter is simply viewed as a harmless result.

CG Didymus said:

Still a cop out. If Baha'is say the resurrection and other things didn't happen, then those things are fictional, right?

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You are still stating what we do not Beleive. The Resurection happened. Jesus was Crucified, the body buried, the body went missing.

That Christ arose when the body died was confirmed to the Disciples after 3 days.

Christ still has Dominion over all Humanity. Christ is all the Great Beings.

If a Flesh Body came tomorrow and said I am Jesus. Who knows what Jesus looked like?

We could wait for when he rides the material clouds.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Pick up a Bible, pick up a Koran, Pick up any Holy Book from any Great Being, lay them next to the writings of the Baha'i Faith and you have the whole story to read.

Now take the name ogf each book, mix them around, Lay aside mans current thoughts, read and you will find passages in each book that show they are from one source.

There is a book that has done that and even condensed the meanings, it is called the Hidden Words.

Regards Tony

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The Bible? Which Great Bring wrote it? The New Testament? Which Great Being wrote it?

CG Didymus said:

Still a cop out. If Baha'is say the resurrection and other things didn't happen, then those things are fictional, right?

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No, there is a specific term for it. It is a term used in scriptures: it is called 'Figurative'. So, it is not fiction, it is not myth in Bahai view.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

How many times do you want us to answer this? That is why.

You need to meditate, you need to ask the source for clarity as I have given the answers that are clear to me.

We also offered the one explanation on the story of Adam and Eve, that also likely based on a real life situation, but it is full of symbolisim.

It may be you need the keys to this understanding, the key is the explanations given in the Baha'i Writings.

Thus maybe you need to consider if Baha'u'llah is who He Claims to be. Maybe it is our trust in those explanations that make these topics more clear.

Regards Tony

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If it is clear, then when did the story switch to symbolism from being real?

DJ_sXe said:

It depends on whether the individual or group in question claims to possess the truth regarding the matter. If they do, then notifications of who's right and who's wrong would exist. If not, then any divergence on a particular matter is simply viewed as a harmless result.

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We are talking about the resurrection. Christians or Baha'is? Who is correct? Who is wrong?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

You are still stating what we do not Beleive. The Resurection happened. Jesus was Crucified, the body buried, the body went missing.

That Christ arose when the body died was confirmed to the Disciples after 3 days.

Christ still has Dominion over all Humanity. Christ is all the Great Beings.

If a Flesh Body came tomorrow and said I am Jesus. Who knows what Jesus looked like?

We could wait for when he rides the material clouds.

Regards Tony

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Christians believe Jesus physically came back to life. That is the resurrection. Baha'is don't believe that.

InvestigateTruth said:

No, there is a specific term for it. It is a term used in scriptures: it is called 'Figurative'. So, it is not fiction, it is not myth in Bahai view.

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Then why do Christians believe the resurrection really happened? That's a false belief, right.

CG Didymus said:

Christians believe Jesus physically came back to life. That is the resurrection. Baha'is don't believe that.

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That is one version that people could conclude, but since Christ said the Flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Spirit that gives life, why hold that view?

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said:

The Bible? Which Great Bring wrote it? The New Testament? Which Great Being wrote it?

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Christ was the Guide. That is why it is said to Contain the Word of God. Baha'u'llah has confirmed that it is accurate for this use.

That is to ascertain Spiritual understanding based on the Jesus the Christ.

CG Didymus said:

If it is clear, then when did the story switch to symbolism from being real?

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"And should they reply: “The Books that are in the hands of this people, which they call the Gospel and attribute to Jesus, the Son of Mary, have not been revealed by God and proceed not from the Manifestations of His Self", then this would imply a cessation in the abounding grace of Him Who is the Source of all grace. If so, God’s testimony to His servants would have remained incomplete and His favour proven imperfect. His mercy would not have shone resplendent, nor would His grace have overshadowed all. For if at the ascension of Jesus His Book had likewise ascended unto heaven, then how could God reprove and chastise the people on the Day of Resurrection, as hath been written by the Imams of the Faith and affirmed by its illustrious divines?"
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 12-13)

In studying the Bible Bahá’ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.
(The Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)

More - Bible

Regards Tony[/QUOTE]

CG Didymus said:

We are talking about the resurrection. Christians or Baha'is? Who is correct? Who is wrong?

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"Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Juk it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed. Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions."
(Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, 2nd. ed., p. 174-175)

Regards Tony