How are these Great Beings explained?

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

With god all things are possible, right?

InvestigateTruth said:
You seem to think symbolic means unreal.
Whereas symbolic does not mean unreal or myth.
Symbolic just means, spiritual truth described with symbolic terms. If you say, his face is as bright as moon. This is symbolic, and real, but it does not mean, his face literally (or physically) is bright.

The PR IS the salvation for a christian not a symbol of it.

I cant change scripture and how the majority of christians see it. That is

Their faith

Not mine nor yours

InvestigateTruth said:
Remember, when you went to school, you took classes and then you wrote a test. Then your teacher marked your test. He told you which one of your answers were correct and which ones are incorrect. Are you saying that, when he found fault with your answers or understanding of the lessons, he was biased?!

That is how Holy Books are. People can misunderstand the lessons in the holy Books. The story of Resurrection of Jesus is meant to be a true lesson. The story teaches spirituality. But if some people do not see its intended purpose and lesson, and takes the symbols, as physically true, should not an all-knowing God tells them of their faulty understanding of God's book?!

You are not a teacher marking christian students wrong. Thats silly and rude. In this case, you are siding with your own view defining other peoples religions.

Its not up to you to point out what you call misinerpretation of another persons faith as a fact-it is your opinion, your belief.

InvestigateTruth said:
spirituality can be expressed using symbolic expressions and stories, can it not?

If those symbols are based on real events.

Did bahaullah actually rose as a spirit or was it a symbol of a non existant event or story?

InvestigateTruth said:
The Christians who live in our time or even past did not write the Bible. The Bible was written by the apostles of Jesus, not by all other Christians, so, how can you say the book belongs to anyone who is called Christians? Jesus and the apostles many times warned against false Christian teachers, and even those who call Jesus Lord, Lord!

How does 2000 some odd years make us automatically unable to write spiritual facts?

False teachers? That is very bias and negative.

Unless you follow christ ONLY then you are an unrepented gentile just as I am. They call us pagans. How can pagans speak for tbe word of god, say you follow christian views, call their views symbolic, and follow manifestations that are no where related to christian beliefs?

I dont take sides. Thats why Im not i abrahamic religions. It makes me think onesided. Its unhealthy for my mind and heart, literally.

InvestigateTruth said:
I am saying if the heart is not pure and clean, it cannot understand. That is what the Bible said:

"Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understan

InvestigateTruth said:
This verse of Bible tells us, to become wise, we need to become pure and spotless; our heart needs to be cleaned.

InvestigateTruth said:
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."

"My son, if your heart is wise, then my heart will be glad indeed; ...."

"The hearts of the wise make their mouths prudent, and their lips promote instruction"

All scripture has a physical element to it. Cultural religions dont seperate the two. Universalist, new age and newer non denominations do. I dont care for universalism. Both sides think they are right.

InvestigateTruth said:
When Christians talk about physical resurrection of Jesus, they mean, Jesus body became alive again physically after the death. What you describe is not an evidence for the physical resurrection. But your interpretation is closer to what Bahais also believe.

You seem to think symbolic means unreal.
Whereas symbolic does not mean unreal or myth.
Symbolic just means, spiritual truth described with symbolic terms. If you say, his face is as bright as moon. This is symbolic, and real, but it does not mean, his face literally (or physically) is bright.

When christians talk about the PR they are talking about their literal salvation and literal reserection when christ returns in flesh and spirit.

My interpretation involves The Church, physical sacraments, physical Eucharist, literal transubstatiation, and literal reserection in one Body of Christ.

Bahai does not share my views. If you did, you would not be basing your facts on scripture but the body of Christ both scripture And tradition.

You say the PR is not real literally. So you base your symbol on what is not taught in scripture. Its bahai view.

Its about the Body of Christ. Christ even says people look to scripture (hebrew) as if IT has eternal life. Even scripture speaks of christ. You are referring to the wrong recourse.

InvestigateTruth · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
Symbolism belittles one's literal experience in christ. Ask a Catholic if the Eucharist is symbolic...ask a priest. It's literal. Whether you symbolize the Eucharist is your interpretation. Regardless of your interpretation, it is true. Its not about your interpretation and where you say you got the interpretation from.

We were talking about Resurrection, not the Eucharist.
But since you brought that up, remember in the Bible it is written "baptize in fire"
Do they literally baptize with physical fire? Or fire has a symbolic meaning here?

You hold no authority of the validity and facts of the christian faith.
.....

Of course I personally do not hold any authority over Christians. Where did I say i do?! Neither anybody who calls himself a Christian or even a priest, can claim such an authority. Only Christ has this Authority. Now, when Christ came down from heaven, He did not have a physical body. The body was born from Marry, but the Spirit had come from heaven. The question is, how would it be compatible with Bible to say, christ went to heaven with physical body, when He did not come down with physical body? Moreover, God the Father is an invisible spirit in Heaven, so, why His son goes to heaven physically, when His father is there without physical body? We cannot just say, because mainstream Christians say so. This would be just blindly accepting their view. If blind acceptance is fine, why not agree with Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Does Jewish Bible belong to the Jews? If yes, according to your logic, Christians were wrong to include it in their own bible and call it Old Testament. Lets be a little more fair.

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

InvestigateTruth said:
We were talking about Resurrection, not the Eucharist.
But since you brought that up, remember in the Bible it is written "baptize in fire"
Do they literally baptize with physical fire? Or fire has a symbolic meaning here?

First. Did you get my point?

PR and the Eucharist are literal expressed as real events in the body of Christ. You arent part of that body. Why are you judging it so?

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

InvestigateTruth said:
We were talking about Resurrection, not the Eucharist.
But since you brought that up, remember in the Bible it is written "baptize in fire"
Do they literally baptize with physical fire? Or fire has a symbolic meaning here?

You said some things are symbols and others are not.

They literally baptize people in water. Cant do both even though its in the same verse.

InvestigateTruth said:
Of course I personally do not hold any authority over Christians. Where did I say i do?

The teacher/student example is a good counter to this. Its your belief. Not a fact.

InvestigateTruth said:
Neither anybody who calls himself a Christian or even a priest, can claim such an authority. Only Christ has this Authority. Now, when Christ came down from heaven, He did not have a physical body. T

This is your opinion. Scripture has always said the apostles are to continue the Church, levite priest handle sacrifices in the OT, etc. You have some protestant views that didnt exist when the Church organized the bible.

InvestigateTruth said:
The body was born from Marry, but the Spirit had come from heaven. The question is, how would it be compatible with Bible to say, christ went to heaven with physical body, when He did not come down with physical body?

Let me ask what is a spirit? Does it exist symbolically or is it based on a real event?

InvestigateTruth said:
Moreover, God the Father is an invisible spirit in Heaven, so, why His son goes to heaven physically, when His father is there without physical body? We cannot just say, because mainstream Christians say so.

What is a spirit?

Mainstream are the Body of Christ. The Church put scripture together. Jesus wrote nothing. Your facts are coming from the apostles not christ himself.

InvestigateTruth said:
This would be just blindly accepting their view. If blind acceptance is fine, why not agree with Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Does Jewish Bible belong to the Jews?

I dont agree blindly accept is negative. In most religions it takes a leap of faith it trust something you cant always investigate what is true and what isnt. You have to jump blindly or youd just be saying you belief what you study but not taking a leap in the dark to understand by Experience why it is true.

InvestigateTruth said:
If yes, according to your logic, Christians were wrong to include it in their own bible and call it Old Testament. Lets be a little more fair.

I disagree with it. Im not a sacred-book person nor do I see things as right/wrong.

Its not my faith. I can only offer opinions, same as you and every other non practicing christian.

InvestigateTruth · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
First. Did you get my point?

PR and the Eucharist are literal expressed as real events in the body of Christ. You arent part of that body. Why are you judging it so?

How do you know they are literal? This is debatable. You seem to try to find a way to omit expression of any different view than the mainstream Christianity, by literally interpreting the Bible to say what you want it to say. Are you saying no body should talk about his understanding of Bible if it is different than mainstream? How is that compatible even with human rights? Was not Jesus promoter of freedom of belief and expression?

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

InvestigateTruth said:
How do you know they are literal?

Have you ever practiced as one body of christ where literal was in the relation with your peers and christ and not in a book?

InvestigateTruth said:
This is debatable. You seem to try to find a way to omit expression of any different view than the mainstream Christianity, by literally interpreting the Bible to say what you want it to say. Are you saying no body should talk about his understanding of Bible if it is different than mainstream? How is that compatible even with human rights?

Not if you are "correcting" misinterpretations as facts that the body and scripture does not agree with. Opinions are fine. You are saying it as if these things are facts.

What experiences you have with christ that were symbolic and not based on anything real? (These are real questions. I forget easily and I dont like repeating)

InvestigateTruth said:
Was not Jesus promoter of freedom of belief and expression?

Freedom of belief, no. Expression? If its against god, it doesnt make the cut.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
What experiences you have with christ that were symbolic and not based on anything real?

Love is real Carlita.

I have said I attend Church services where I live.

It is great to have fellowship in Christ with Love in Christ and the Word.

A house dedicated to worship can be a great focal point of prayer. But it is written when people gather for worship, it is already a special place.

Matthew 18:20"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

No ritual needed, Gather and make mention of Christ and Christ will be there.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jan 5, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Mathew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Carlita said:
It says baptism by water. Unless there is a contridiction in scripture?

It says people were baptised by water before jesus came. Once he comes, people would be baptised in the spirit.

If it is only spiritual, why would John use water and not the holy spirit?

I see no contradiction. I see that John was using baptism to prepare the people for Christ and His Message from God. There is a history of these rituals going back before this time.

When Christ came he submitted to Baptisim, while not needing to do so, why? More than likely to show that no man is exempt from repentance.

How to repent after accepting Christ, is Christs Baptisim of the Holy Spirit and Fire.

A burning desire to live as Christ did and follow in his way. When we fall short, ask for forgiveness from God and God only.

Daniel 9:9"To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him;"

Regards Tony

InvestigateTruth · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
With god all things are possible, right?

You have to ask God about that. Bahaullah taught God does not always do what His creatures want. He does what He wills. God is wise. He does not do anything that is not wise. So the answer is No. Not everything is possible with God, except what is wise.
How would physical resurrection be wise? It is quite against science and logic. God himself does not have a physical body in heaven, so, why should His son have a physical body in heaven?! Do you understand what I am saying? Do you see the problem with the idea of going to heaven with a physical body?!

.

The PR IS the salvation for a christian not a symbol of it..

What is PR?! You came up with a new abreviation now for physical resurrection?! There is no such as expression as 'physical' resurrection in Bible.

.

I cant change scripture and how the majority of christians see it. That is

Their faith

Not mine nor yours

.

Correct. You are not expected to change anything with Scriptures and how others see it. But you have an option for yourself to see it with your own eyes, rather than just thinking you have to believe Bible is talking about physical resurrection. You do not have control over other people's view, but you do have control over your own view, don't you?

.

You are not a teacher marking christian students wrong. Thats silly and rude. In this case, you are siding with your own view defining other peoples religions.

Its not up to you to point out what you call misinerpretation of another persons faith as a fact-it is your opinion, your belief.

.

You made a wrong conclusion from what i was trying to say. I gave you the example of teacher. The real Teacher is God. So, if He came again and told the Christians where they misunderstood His own Book, can you say God is biased or God forbidden, His words are rude and silly!!??

I guess because you cannot believe in a God, you also cannot even consider the possibility that God speaks again, right?!

.

If those symbols are based on real events.

Did bahaullah actually rose as a spirit or was it a symbol of a non existant event or story?

.

Off course Bahaullah ascended to Heaven. This is a real event in Bahai view. But it does not mean, the spirit of Bahaullah was in His body, and came out and went up. Spirit is not natural or physical. It does not move up or down. It is supernatural. It is beyond our understanding. This is sufficient!

.

How does 2000 some odd years make us automatically unable to write spiritual facts?
.

The Bible was not written over 2000 years. It was written in early Christianity by a limited number of people.

.

False teachers? That is very bias and negative.
.

The Bible talks about false teachers in Christianity. Is Bible biased?!
Remember, you said you cannot change the Scriptures. So, why are you worried?

.

Unless you follow christ ONLY then you are an unrepented gentile just as I am. They call us pagans. How can pagans speak for tbe word of god, say you follow christian views, call their views symbolic, and follow manifestations that are no where related to christian beliefs?
.

Following Christ is not a simple thing to do.

.

I dont take sides. Thats why Im not i abrahamic religions. It makes me think onesided. Its unhealthy for my mind and heart, literally.

.

Well, you seem more in agreement with mainstream Christian interpretations of Bible, so I am not sure why you say, you do not take sides.

.

When christians talk about the PR they are talking about their literal salvation and literal reserection when christ returns in flesh and spirit.
.

Yes. Most of them do. What is the point?!

.

My interpretation involves The Church, physical sacraments, physical Eucharist, literal transubstatiation, and literal reserection in one Body of Christ.

That is up to you how you want to interpret.
It would be wise not to blindly imitate from mainstream though. Independent investigation of Truth is the way!

.

Bahai does not share my views. If you did, you would not be basing your facts on scripture but the body of Christ both scripture And tradition.
.

Christ did not say anyone who calls himself a Christian is truly a member of the Body of Christ. Only those who do the Will of the Father.

.

You say the PR is not real literally. So you base your symbol on what is not taught in scripture. Its bahai view..

The Bahai view of Spiritual Resurrection is in agreement and compatible with Bible verses fundamentally. The physical resurrection is not compatible with Bible.

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Love is real Carlita.

I have said I attend Church services where I live.

It is great to have fellowship in Christ with Love in Christ and the Word.

A house dedicated to worship can be a great focal point of prayer. But it is written when people gather for worship, it is already a special place.

Matthew 18:20"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

No ritual needed, Gather and make mention of Christ and Christ will be there.

Regards Tony

These are real physical things. I wanted to know

What experiences you have with christ that were symbolic and not based on anything real?

The things you mentioned, are they real "or" symbolic?

Can you still get the same experience without any physical thing you mentioned in your post?

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see no contradiction. I see that John was using baptism to prepare the people for Christ and His Message from God. There is a history of these rituals going back before this time.

When Christ came he submitted to Baptisim, while not needing to do so, why? More than likely to show that no man is exempt from repentance.

How to repent after accepting Christ, is Christs Baptisim of the Holy Spirit and Fire.

A burning desire to live as Christ did and follow in his way. When we fall short, ask for forgiveness from God and God only.

Daniel 9:9"To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him;"

Regards Tony

Can you actually be baptized in both fire and water?

Real fire.
Real water.

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

I have to come back when the public computer is free. On my tablet. Im not a sacred book person. My spiritual knowledge comes from my experiences. I read the bible twice and I will always use The Church as a point of reference to christianity. Without them, no protestants,. No bible.

InvestigateTruth said:
You have to ask God about that.

This is cheating. If you know scriptures, why discuss it with me if all of this is your Opinion? That statement came vibatum from the bible.

Can he do all things or not?

InvestigateTruth said:
Bahaullah taught God does not always do what His creatures want. He does what He wills. God is wise. He does not do anything that is not wise. So the answer is No. Not everything is possible with God, except what is wise.

How would physical resurrection be wise? It is quite against science and logic. God himself does not have a physical body in heaven, so, why should His son have a physical body in heaven?

We are talking about christianity.

Science doesnt outdo god's abilities. Why would god be limited by the "laws" of science?

InvestigateTruth said:
Do you understand what I am saying? Do you see the problem with the idea of going to heaven with a physical body?!

No. Christians speak of a physical body as does scripture to give christians visual reassurance they will go up to heaven just as he did.

We are talking about christianity not my personal beliefs about it.

Its not about me.

InvestigateTruth said:
What is PR?! You came up with a new abreviation now for physical resurrection?! There is no such as expression as 'physical' resurrection in Bible.

Im on my tablet so its hard to write thinigs reteatedly with one finger.

The vision you keep referring to is both physical and spiritual.

Again, what is a spirit and how does it rise?

If a symbol is it based on real events or fake ones?

InvestigateTruth said:
I guess because you cannot believe in a God, you also cannot even consider the possibility that God speaks again, right?!

If I believed in god it would be hindu first. I see no love from the abrahamic god. I also dont want to commune with anyone with a "he is wrong" mindset.

InvestigateTruth said:
Correct. You are not expected to change anything with Scriptures and how others see it. But you have an option for yourself to see it with your own eyes, rather than just thinking you have to believe Bible is talking about physical resurrection. You do not have control over other people's view, but you do have control over your own view, don't you?

Wow. You really have to see it in other people's eyes. Empathy. You cant have world peace when you just belittled the diversity yoou want to make peace with.

I cant change whats written in any book. Its written, sold, and copyrighted. Id get fined for plagiary here in the states.

Your views are highly negative and defensive. I cant change that. You are the owner of your own actions.

InvestigateTruth said:
You made a wrong conclusion from what i was trying to say. I gave you the example of teacher. The real Teacher is God. So, if He came again and told the Christians where they misunderstood His own Book, can you say God is biased or God forbidden, His words are rude and silly!!??

Ideally, yes. You arent god so how do I take your words as more than a opinion?

InvestigateTruth said:
Off course Bahaullah ascended to Heaven. This is a real event in Bahai view. But it does not mean, the spirit of Bahaullah was in His body, and came out and went up. Spirit is not natural or physical. It does not move up or down. It is supernatural. It is beyond our understanding. This is sufficient!

If you dont understand it, how can you describe it beyond what you Think the spirit is and does?

If you can tell me about of it, can you tell me exactly what rises?

InvestigateTruth said:
The Bible was not written over 2000 years. It was written in early Christianity by a limited number of people.

You get my point?

Between the past and present what year did god stop doing miracles that you believe are now symbolic? Do you believe in miracles today?

InvestigateTruth said:
The Bible talks about false teachers in Christianity. Is Bible biased?!
Remember, you said you cannot change the Scriptures. So, why are you worried?

Getting emotional here. I just woke from a nap. Its just a discussion.

Yes. The bible is bias. So are the suttas. So is the dictionary. Its not a bad word. Do you think the bible is open minded about godly issues?

InvestigateTruth said:
Following Christ is not a simple thing to do.

InvestigateTruth said:
Well, you seem more in agreement with mainstream Christian interpretations of Bible, so I am not sure why you say, you do not take sides.

Only because of my experiences and reading the bible. I left the church because I dont take sides.

InvestigateTruth said:
Yes. Most of them do. What is the point?!

It reassures them physical resurrection like christ. Its not a bahai view.

InvestigateTruth said:
That is up to you how you want to interpret.

It would be wise not to blindly imitate from mainstream though. Independent investigation of Truth is the way!

Im not christian. I have no reason to follow any abrahamic god. I have my faith. I can only go off what I read and experienced.

Unless your saying they are fake cause I dont follow god?

InvestigateTruth said:
Christ did not say anyone who calls himself a Christian is truly a member of the Body of Christ. Only those who do the Will of the Father.

Those who do the will of the father are christian

Dont pick straws

InvestigateTruth said:
The Bahai view of Spiritual Resurrection is in agreement and compatible with Bible verses fundamentally. The physical resurrection is not compatible with Bible.

This is your view. We arent talking about bahai.

TransmutingSoul · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
Can you actually be baptized in both fire and water?

Real fire.
Real water.

Both have no result on my Spiritual Condition, unless I partake of them Spiritually.

Material water does not wash away any Sin, and

Material Fire does not make my heart Love.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
Can you still get the same experience without any physical thing you mentioned in your post?

What Physical thing was mentioned in my post?

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
Those who do the will of the father are christian

Dont pick straws

The Father is Baha'u'llah, it is His Will we share.

That makes it interesting!

Regards Tony

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Father is Baha'u'llah, it is His Will we share.

That makes it interesting!

Regards Tony

We are talking about christianity

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Both have no result on my Spiritual Condition, unless I partake of them Spiritually.

Material water does not wash away any Sin, and

Material Fire does not make my heart Love.

Regards Tony

Literally.

Can you do both at the same time?

TransmutingSoul · Jan 5, 2018

Carlita said:
This is your view. We arent talking about bahai.

This is the Point of Faith in One God Carlita, we are talking about the Faith of all Great Beings, they are One in God.

No One Word of any Messenger, can be shown to negate another Mesenger. Each of Gods Messages support another.

The differences are our own vain imaginings. To which we all have many.

Regards Tony

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
What Physical thing was mentioned in my post?

Regards Tony

Without the physical in your post will you still experience the same thing spiritually?

Unveiled Artist · Jan 5, 2018

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
This is the Point of Faith in One God Carlita, we are talking about the Faith of all Great Beings, they are One in God.

No One Word of any Messenger, can be shown to negate another Mesenger. Each of Gods Messages support another.

The differences are our own vain imaginings. To which we all have many.

Regards Tony

They are not.

The differences are both spiritual and physical. The similarities are only in bahai. Bahai does not speak for all faiths.

Its not about bahai

How are these Great Beings explained?

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