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So Why A Virgin?

Skwim

Veteran Member
We had the prophecies which had to come true, and if a married woman had a child how big a deal would this be to anyone!
Err, one can be married and still be a virgin. :rolleyes: Just as one can be a non-virgin without being married.

If Joseph had married her, and, afterwards, she had been made to bear this child in a miraculous manner, how could Joseph know this child wasn't his doing?!
So you're saying that the divinity of Jesus hangs on Joseph's conviction that Jesus was not his? I highly doubt this.

Naturally, unbelievers take her for a loose woman.
Which unbelievers are these. I'm an "unbeliever" and I never considered Mary to be a loose woman. :shrug:

Thus, for the sake of prophecies and for the sake of believers, for the sake of all things proper, he used a virgin to get this done. Not believing it is your prerogative.
You know, I bet all the magic Jesus preformed would have been just convincing.

1 Jesus Turns Water into Wine at the Wedding in Cana
2 Jesus Heals an Official's Son at Capernaum in Galilee
3 Jesus Drives Out an Evil Spirit From a Man in Capernaum 1
4 Jesus Heals Peter's Mother-in-Law Sick With Fever
5 Jesus Heals Many Sick and Oppressed at Evening
6 First Miraculous Catch of Fish on the Lake of Gennesaret
7 Jesus Cleanses a Man With Leprosy
8 Jesus Heals a Centurion's Paralyzed Servant in Capernaum
9 Jesus Heals a Paralytic Who Was Let Down From the Roof
10 Jesus Heals a Man's Withered Hand on the Sabbath
11 Jesus Raises a Widow's Son From the Dead in Nain
12 Jesus Calms a Storm on the Sea
13 Jesus Casts Demons into a Herd of Pigs [Nice guy by the way, when he could have just as well made them vanish into thin air.]
14 Jesus Heals a Woman in the Crowd With an Issue of Blood
15 Jesus Raises Jairus' Daughter Back to Life
16 Jesus Heals Two Blind Men
17 Jesus Heals a Man Who Was Unable to Speak
18 Jesus Heals an Invalid at Bethesda
19 Jesus Feeds 5,000 Plus Women and Children
20 Jesus Walks on Water

ETC. ETC.​
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member

You know, I bet all the magic Jesus preformed would have been just convincing.

1 Jesus Turns Water into Wine at the Wedding in Cana
2 Jesus Heals an Official's Son at Capernaum in Galilee
3 Jesus Drives Out an Evil Spirit From a Man in Capernaum 1
4 Jesus Heals Peter's Mother-in-Law Sick With Fever
5 Jesus Heals Many Sick and Oppressed at Evening
6 First Miraculous Catch of Fish on the Lake of Gennesaret
7 Jesus Cleanses a Man With Leprosy
8 Jesus Heals a Centurion's Paralyzed Servant in Capernaum
9 Jesus Heals a Paralytic Who Was Let Down From the Roof
10 Jesus Heals a Man's Withered Hand on the Sabbath
11 Jesus Raises a Widow's Son From the Dead in Nain
12 Jesus Calms a Storm on the Sea
13 Jesus Casts Demons into a Herd of Pigs [Nice guy by the way, when he could have just as well made them vanish into thin air.]
14 Jesus Heals a Woman in the Crowd With an Issue of Blood
15 Jesus Raises Jairus' Daughter Back to Life
16 Jesus Heals Two Blind Men
17 Jesus Heals a Man Who Was Unable to Speak
18 Jesus Heals an Invalid at Bethesda
19 Jesus Feeds 5,000 Plus Women and Children
20 Jesus Walks on Water

ETC. ETC.​
would they?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But nowhere in the Bible is this virginity ever established. It is simply claimed.
.
This is quite funny... how do you establish it? Did you want 3 doctors to take a look?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Err, one can be married and still be a virgin.
I thought marriage was a sexual contract, union. Never heard of a person married being a virgin. Of course, the probability might exist, however, why in the world would someone marry and not have sex!
So you're saying that the divinity of Jesus hangs on Joseph's conviction that Jesus was not his? I highly doubt this.
Being a virgin usually means that the hymen is unbroken. This could easily have been verified after he found her pregnant, even without the angels message.
I'm an "unbeliever" and I never considered Mary to be a loose woman.
Good for you. By this, you also avoid coming close to the mocking blasphemies some engage in. However, when you say you are an unbeliever, doesn't this automatically still mean that God didn't cause the miracle?! Sorry, you left me confused there. If she got pregnant by 'accident' old teenager playing about, Joseph wouldn't have had a message about her from God after all.
You know, I bet all the magic Jesus preformed would have been just convincing.
So, you believe his miracles happened though you label them magic?!
Making a person dead for 4 days rise, is beyond impressive in my book.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Sorry, can't help myself, but reading the last 3 pages, the word I think I saw most often was "if." And let me point something out about that: if tomatoes had the IQ of Einstein, they could have invented Bolognese Sauce long before the Italians ever got around to it. What have I established that everybody is ready to sign on to and believe ever after?
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Paul appears to say that as Saul he persecuted those who followed Jesus. You may also be aware of the >Gabriel's Vision stone<, which dates to the later 1st century BCE and at one point refers to an angelic leader who will die and rise again after three days. This may indicate the existence of a cult within Judaism with similarities to Christianity earlier than the traditional dates, and if that were correct, perhaps protoChristianity itself. It would also make the figure of the historical Jesus more elusive and perhaps more allusive.

I am less than convinced by the Gabriel Revelation Stone due the strong disagreements among the scholars on what the critical words really say. Also I am not very impressed by the third day reference. I am not out to debate the meaning of the Gabriel Stone, not being all that qualified to do so. Instead I see the origin of the third day concept in Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

Paul never said what scriptures he meant, but this is sometimes proposed as the answer.

Hosea 6
1
“Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
but he will heal us;
he has injured us
but he will bind up our wounds.
2
After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.


It may be that Paul was the origin of the third day concept. Or he may have gotten it from Peter or others in Jerusalem. 1 Corinthians 15 is where Paul presents his evidence, if such it is, of a risen Jesus. If Paul did get the third day idea from Peter or others, it would pint to a real crucifixion. Concerning the resurrection, the end of Mark is very ambiguous. But that is a topic for another day.


My reading supports dating Paul's letters to the 50s. But the fact and date of the Crucifixion depend on the existence of a real Jesus. I think there's no clincher either way to that question. And whether there was a real Jesus or not, the earliest we meet Jesus in history is with Paul's letters, and Paul never met Jesus and has no clue about the earthly biography of Jesus ─ that he was a Jew, preached in Jerusalem, instituted the Last Supper (which in fact is a Greek borrowing) and was crucified and buried. Even after visiting 'James the brother of the Lord' and the Jerusalem Christians for a fortnight he has added not one biographical datum to his knowledge.

Paul speaking of the crucifixion as if his readers already know about it suggests that this was something real. Maybe. Paul makes it into something of cosmic importance rather than the embarrassing fact of a messianic spiritual leader getting offed by the Romans. The whole Sin of Adam thing and the very unorthodox mode of sacrifice relative to Judaism and so on sound more than a bit suspicious to anyone not already looking to believe. Why would anyone make up that story? I see Paul as perhaps coming up with a story to turn the facts into something more than they were.

A cynical thought that occurs to me is that maybe Paul did not like the anecdotes and teachings he got from people who knew the living Jesus. Perhaps he found the real Jesus, in the words of Harvey Korman, “too Jewish”.


He also quotes what some scholars think is the earliest Christian document (if Gabriel's Vision is not): the 'kenosis hymn' in Philippians 2:5-11. It is (I read) written in poetic meter, and in verse 8 the phrase 'even death on a cross' appears to be a later gloss, since it breaks the meter. This raises the possibility that the crucifixion is a later part of the story, or that two stories are combined. And in verses 9-10 it says Jesus was not called Jesus ('Yeshua', old 'Yehoshua', the same name as Joshua, meaning 'Yahweh is salvation') until after his death.

This commentary on the Kenosis Hymn has it be a chiasm. If so, it strikes me as a rather modest example of the genre. If it was intended as a chiasm, the meter breaking phrase is the peak and could have been intentionally jarring to call attention to it.

I agree that the name references raise a problem. As the link I gave above discusses, it does not sounds like Paul is the author. The question remains, what might Paul have changed?

There's only one biography of Jesus, that in Mark (about 75 CE). Imagine the wife of Mark's author comes home and finds her husband, pen in hand, staring at a blank sheet of paper. What are you doing? she says. I'm trying to write a biography of Jesus, but no one has any facts about him: I'm going nuts. She kisses him sweetly on the forehead and says, That's easy! Make a list of things that look like messianic prophecies in the Tanakh and have him perform them one after another. Then you can fit in the sayings on your other list! And he smiles widely and goes to get his Tanakh.

Matthew is the real champ of scriptural references. According to this chart Matthew makes 36 references to scripture (including the LXX) compared to Mark’s 20 and Luke’s 19.

There may be some biographical clues to a real Jesus in there nonetheless. With only one exception, Jesus is sharply antagonistic to his family and to his mother every time she's mentioned (Mark 3:31, Mark 6:3, Mark 15:40, Matthew 10:35, Luke 11:27. John 2:3, contrast John 19:26). And it may be that Jesus was of puny build or had some visible disfigurement that would account for Luke 4:22 ('Physician, heal yourself'). Nor would the 'King of the Jews' sign as a piece of mockery work if Jesus had Arnie's build. But perhaps those elements are in the story because Isaiah 53:2 is taken as a prophecy for the messiah to fulfill.

In Mark 6:3 it is people at the synagogue who mention the family of Jesus. No antagonism with his family here.
Mark 15:40 is not about the family of Jesus.
Matthew 10:35 is not about the family of Jesus either. It about a messianic prophecy in Micah 7

In John 2:3 Mary nudges like a Jewish mother. :)

You missed the best one of all. Mark 4:21 has the family of Jesus think he is crazy.

I have no idea what “Physician, heal yourself” refers to in Luke 4:22. The physical appearance of Jesus does not sound reasonable. Luke was not an eyewitness. He got his information from others as he says in Luke 1. No one else mentions anything about how Jesus looked.


As I said, I think it's a 50-50 chance: there may have been an historical Jesus or there may not have been; none is essential to account for what we know.

I still see a historical Jesus as the best explanation.
 

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Think Luke or anyone else was around to record such an exchange? Of course not. In fact much of the supposed dialogue between people in the Bible is fabricated or at least rephrased so as to suit particular needs.

A true believer would say that Luke got it from Mary. At the beginning, Luke says he talked to eyewitnesses.

My answer is that Luke’s narrative serves Luke’s purposes. One of them is to bring the character Mary to life after Matthew’s skimpy treatment of her. Such an important character deserved more ink, Luke seems to be saying. Another purpose is to fortify the idea that Mary was truly a virgin. Without that, the literal Son of God idea is subject to suspicion.

My interest in the Bible is primarily to understand why the writers wrote what they did and what they intended to be understood. What really happened and who said what is not as important.


Verified by post-natal inspection"? What the heck is that?

Here is the relevant part from the non-canonical 2nd century Infancy Gospel of James.

From paragraphs 19 and 20

And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God;


A status that would have been established by those virgin births mentioned in the legends of previous gods---which was noted by Evangelicalhumanistin post 17.)

See my reply at the beginning of page 2
So Why A Virgin?

Virgin births of gods exist far more in the modern imagination than in the original mythology. Even when it did happen, the virginity of the woman was never a significant issue. Zeus had affairs with a lot more married women than single ones. In the case of Mary, her virginity was essential to demonstrate that the father was not mortal. Jesus was to be the Son of God in a completely literal sense.


In other words, that the OT prophecy doesn't really apply to Jesus doesn't matter as long as it's believed.
clip_image001.png

Belief in the virgin birth as supporting the theme of Jesus as Son of God was the point. As I said, my interest is why the writers wrote what they did.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Most Christians hold the virgin birth of Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament

Isaiah 7:14
"Behold, a virgin has conceived and will bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel, which means God with us."
And in fulfillment of this prophesy the New Testament says

Matthew 3:18-23
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed" to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. 20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall call his name Immanuel”​

Luke 1:27
to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.

Luke 1:34
And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”​

My question:
why was it necessary that Emmanuel (Jesus) be born of a virgin? What's the big deal about being born to a mother who never had sexual intercourse? Is this a message that sexual intercourse is a tainted, dishonorable, disgraceful act?

.

.


that no man could argue...Man beget God
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I thought marriage was a sexual contract, union. Never heard of a person married being a virgin. Of course, the probability might exist, however, why in the world would someone marry and not have sex!
Well there are instances where physical sexual intercourse is not possible, yet two people feel the need for each other's companionship.

Being a virgin usually means that the hymen is unbroken. This could easily have been verified after he found her pregnant, even without the angels message.
OMG! Please avail yourself of a decent book on the female body and its functioning.

Good for you. By this, you also avoid coming close to the mocking blasphemies some engage in. However, when you say you are an unbeliever, doesn't this automatically still mean that God didn't cause the miracle?! Sorry, you left me confused there. If she got pregnant by 'accident' old teenager playing about, Joseph wouldn't have had a message about her from God after all.
Just because I don't buy into Christianity doesn't mean I can't look at it from a Christian perspective. I was a Lutheran before I turned twenty or so.

So, you believe his miracles happened though you label them magic?!
Making a person dead for 4 days rise, is beyond impressive in my book.
No I don't believe them, but I can put them into a Christian context and look at them rationally. I don't need to believe there's a loving god to see that such a being conflicts with the notion that it creates evil.

.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Here is the relevant part from the non-canonical 2nd century Infancy Gospel of James.

From paragraphs 19 and 20

And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth -- a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God;
Gotta say, it's tales like this, a hymen splitting opening to admit the delivery of Jesus and then immediately repairing itself, that probably prevented the Infancy Gospel of James from being accepted as part of the Bible.

.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am less than convinced by the Gabriel Revelation Stone due the strong disagreements among the scholars on what the critical words really say. Also I am not very impressed by the third day reference. I am not out to debate the meaning of the Gabriel Stone, not being all that qualified to do so. Instead I see the origin of the third day concept in Paul.
I mentioned in the context of your remark that a Christian group may have existed earlier than Paul. I agree that it doesn't do more than open possibilities, and that it's not necessarily connected to Christianity.
1 Corinthians 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures
Thanks for Hosea 6. That hadn't been on my map. I gather it's from the 8th century BCE.
Concerning the resurrection, the end of Mark is very ambiguous. But that is a topic for another day.
Forensically, the evidence for the resurrection is of abysmal quality.
Paul speaking of the crucifixion as if his readers already know about it suggests that this was something real. Maybe.
I agree it can't be ruled out. But if it happened, what can be ruled out is the claim that it created a political crisis in Jerusalem between the Sanhedrin and the Prefecture.
A cynical thought that occurs to me is that maybe Paul did not like the anecdotes and teachings he got from people who knew the living Jesus. Perhaps he found the real Jesus, in the words of Harvey Korman, “too Jewish”.
Given his bald statement (Galatians 1:12) that everything he says about Jesus comes out of his own head, yes, it seems clear no one was going to correct Paul on that subject.
This commentary on the Kenosis Hymn has it be a chiasm. If so, it strikes me as a rather modest example of the genre. If it was intended as a chiasm, the meter breaking phrase is the peak and could have been intentionally jarring to call attention to it.
I'll make some more enquiries.
I agree that the name references raise a problem. As the link I gave above discusses, it does not sounds like Paul is the author. The question remains, what might Paul have changed?
I understand it's regarded as a quote, and is possibly the earliest surviving Christian writing.

(And yes, I made some errors in those references to Jesus v family.)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member

Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
Gotta say, it's tales like this, a hymen splitting opening to admit the delivery of Jesus and then immediately repairing itself, that probably prevented the Infancy Gospel of James from being accepted as part of the Bible.
.

The Infancy Gospel of James dates to the mid or late 2nd century., too late to be considered the real thing. Nevertheless the theme of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is Catholic doctrine as is the tradition that Joseph was an old man and the 'brothers and sisters' of Jesus were Joseph's grown children from a prior marriage. These ideas are straight out of the Infancy Gospel of James,

The Lateran Council of 649 AD defined this as part of the doctrine concerning the Virgin Mary

“that the supernatural influence of the Holy Ghost extended to the birth of Jesus Christ, not merely preserving Mary's integrity, but also causing Christ's birth or external generation to reflect his eternal birth from the Father in this, that "the Light from Light" proceeded from his mother's womb as a light shed on the world; that the "power of the Most High" passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them; that "the body of the Word" formed by the Holy Ghost penetrated another body after the manner of spirits.”
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Virgin Birth of Christ

This ‘Light’ is mentioned in the Infancy Gospel of James. In the above doctrine the infant Jesus “passed through the barriers of nature without injuring them … after the manner of spirits”. No hymen breaking or repairing needed.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Didn't mean to be condescending. I was just surprised that some people weren't aware that the state of the hymen has nothing to do with virginity. In any case here are three sources explaining it all.
Nothing new for me in your posts. However, in ancient times, reconstructive surgery would not be available. About the other problems with the hymen, for sure these exist. However, what do you think the chance is of God selecting a young woman who has no hymen or has had it damaged?! The Jews permitted divorce if the woman later on could not provide proof of blood having been shed during the first intercourse. Of course, another temple test could be administered where God would cause the woman to suffer if she was an adulterer. However, the husband would never be able to divorce her if this test was administered, if memory serves.

As to some youngsters playing around before marriage without penetration, that was not the Jewish custom. A death penalty could ensue if discovered.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So what? Would this be a deal breaking argument?

.
and a lot of people (at that time) would have said .......oh! oh!

and born of woman.....Who was the father??????!!!!!!!

no one was looking for a subtle entrance.....in a manger
difficult to secure the prophecy without herald to the hierarchy of temple

shepherds as witnesses?????
 
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Rough Beast Sloucher

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
I mentioned in the context of your remark that a Christian group may have existed earlier than Paul. I agree that it doesn't do more than open possibilities, and that it's not necessarily connected to Christianity.

The Gabriel stone is dated to late 1st century BC to early 1St century AD. The Jews had been subjugated by yet another foreign people. It should not be a surprise if it smacks of apocalypticism. Since it was written in ink on stone, its legibility leaves a lot to be desired. Line 80, which supposedly said something like “rise from the dead within three days” really says “In three days live” or maybe “in three days a sign”. The word ‘three’ is used 14 times in the legible parts of the tablet.

Wiki
Translated Tablet

Like I said I do not have a fixed opinion, but trying to connect this to Christianity sounds like a real stretch.


Thanks for Hosea 6. That hadn't been on my map. I gather it's from the 8th century BCE.

Hosea is traditionally dated to the final days of the Northern Kingdom, in the late 8th century BC.

I did a little search and found out that the phrase ‘the third day’ appears in the OT 24 times not counting compounds like ‘twenty-third day’ or the use of the phrase in Genesis 1.

Forensically, the evidence for the resurrection is of abysmal quality.

True. Why the different writers wrote different stories is a fascinating subject. To me anyway. But that is far afield of this thread.


I agree it can't be ruled out. But if it happened, what can be ruled out is the claim that it created a political crisis in Jerusalem between the Sanhedrin and the Prefecture.

I do not see a political crisis. Just some posturing for the crowd, presented in different fashion by each of the several writers. Reading between the lines, I see Mark’s version as something that might really have happened.


Given his bald statement (Galatians 1:12) that everything he says about Jesus comes out of his own head, yes, it seems clear no one was going to correct Paul on that subject.
Also right before that, Galatians 6-9

Another example in 1 Corinthians 11:23-26

And then we have 2 Corinthians 12:1-4


understand it's regarded as a quote, and is possibly the earliest surviving Christian writing.

Assume the Kenosis Hymn was written by other than Paul, which seems to be the case., Assume it was originally about Jesus, which may or may not be the case. If so, this points not just to a Christianity before Paul, which we know existed. It points to a Christianity that has taken the Son of God phrase beyond an epithet for the Messiah into the realm of the supernatural. The Gospels take the Son of God phrase as already part of the story, although in different ways. Nevertheless the idea of Jesus as Son of God as pre-existing divine being is not introduced as a teaching by Jesus anywhere. Who came up with it and just what did they mean.

It has been said that the Son of God notion came out of Philo’s writings and there are passages in Paul and definitely in John that resonate very strongly with Philo. If Philo was really the source of this idea, who put it into the kenosis hymn? Was it possibly written by a follower in one of the other communities Paul wrote to or visited and the seeming presence of Philo being due to Paul after all? That seems like a good explanation but I see no way of finding out.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not see a political crisis. Just some posturing for the crowd, presented in different fashion by each of the several writers. Reading between the lines, I see Mark’s version as something that might really have happened.
Theologian Theodore 'Ted' Weeden in a paper maybe 2004 pointed out 24 parallels between Mark's account of the trial of Jesus and Josephus' account of the trial of Jesus ben Ananus in Wars 6:5. From the net, >here's< Robert Carrier's list of 21 such similarities (20, since 18's a dud), presumably working from Weeden.

I'm sufficiently persuaded by those parallels to date Mark not before 75 CE when Josephus' Wars began to circulate. (Of course, it's possible that an earlier common source served both accounts but I think that less likely.) I also take it to affirm that the author of Mark didn't have (and therefore likely there was not) any other account of the trial, and that, more generally, he worked from templates such as this and the Tanakh.
Assume the Kenosis Hymn was written by other than Paul, which seems to be the case., Assume it was originally about Jesus, which may or may not be the case.
Or, as it appears to say, someone of unknown name who was later remembered as Jesus.
If so, this points not just to a Christianity before Paul, which we know existed. It points to a Christianity that has taken the Son of God phrase beyond an epithet for the Messiah into the realm of the supernatural.
And brings up all the unanswered questions about the role of gnosticism in the earliest church.
The Gospels take the Son of God phrase as already part of the story, although in different ways. Nevertheless the idea of Jesus as Son of God as pre-existing divine being is not introduced as a teaching by Jesus anywhere. Who came up with it and just what did they mean.
Paul's Jesus is a supernatural being who can appear in visions after his death, and he's the Son and he's Lord, but he's not God. He also has an extremely scanty earthly biography.

I think Paul's worldview (with its gnostic hints) is in very substantial contrast to that of the author of Mark, who sets out to give an account of a 'real' Jesus, including starting him off as a straightforward artisan-class Jew who at his baptism is adopted as son by God in a manner that accords with Jewish tradition.
It has been said that the Son of God notion came out of Philo’s writings and there are passages in Paul and definitely in John that resonate very strongly with Philo. If Philo was really the source of this idea, who put it into the kenosis hymn? Was it possibly written by a follower in one of the other communities Paul wrote to or visited and the seeming presence of Philo being due to Paul after all? That seems like a good explanation but I see no way of finding out.
Or was it in Jewish tradition all along, as in ─

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he [David] shall be my son. When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men;

Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my son, today I have begotten you.

Psalm 89:26 He shall cry to me, ‘Thou art my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ 27 And I will make him the first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.
whence

Mark 1:10: And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove;
11 and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.”

Acts 13:33: And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.’
Or both? (Note for what it's worth that 'salvation' (yĕshuw`ah) in Psalm 89:26 is the same word as in the name Yehoshua ('Joshua', 'Yahweh is salvation') = Yeshua / Jesus.)
 
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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
What's the big deal? Can you name one other person who was born to a woman who had not had sex? I think that would be on the 6:00 o'clock news if it happened today. And not talking about test tube babies where the mother has an egg artificially placed in her. But a real case where a woman wakes up one day and she is pregnant without having sex. Big deal? I think so.

More than one supposed deity was born of a virgin...and Jesus was not the first. Without any evidence, I think it is easy to dismiss such claims.
 
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