For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

gnostic · Dec 30, 2017

sayak83 said:
Can you put this in Resources section?

Resource section???

Hockeycowboy · Dec 30, 2017

QuestioningMind said:
Sounds like someone who was completely naive and gullible. Someone who had never experienced fear or worry and was completely trusting of everyone she encountered. Someone who would be a perfect target for the first person or talking snake that might come along and decide to deceive her. Now, if you knew for certain that she would never encounter such a person or talking snake, the you could consider her to have been created perfectly.

Deeje answered this well in another post. She wrote....
"It is my belief that the reason why the devil did not target the man is that Adam was more educated than his new wife and over a long period of time, had developed a closer relationship with his God. He would more likely have told the devil what Jesus did....."go away satan....this is what God said".....
The devil targeted the (inexperienced) woman to get to the man. His tactic was to divide and conquer....something tacticians still use because it is so successful. Satan made Adam choose between his love for God and his love for his wife. Divided loyalties are a trap."

(Comment in parentheses is mine.)

QuestioningMind said:
However, if you know that there's a good chance that she will encounter such a person or talking snake - like if you created a deceptive talking snake and allowed it into PARADISE - then creating Eve so completely naive and gullible seems like an obvious flaw... IF your intention is for her to not be deceived.

You should stop saying "naïve and gullible".... she was inexperienced, yes, but she never had a reason to distrust anyone or anything! And it wasn't 'gullibility'; the Devil presented her with the concept that she could gain more knowledge by eating that fruit. That she would gain something beneficial from it. It was a tempting proposition.

And this idea the Devil implanted in her mind (or I should say, made her think about), was actually another issue: Does Jehovah God withhold good things from His obedient creatures?
(He never does, although many think so. His laws on sex within marriage is just one good example!)

Basically here, you're saying 'it's God's fault.'
(Didn't you earlier identify yourself as a Methodist?...Maybe not.)
The Devil (slanderer), aka Satan (resister), wasn't made such. He was once a perfect creation, a spirit who was given - as are humans and all other intelligent creatures - free moral agency. God no more created him, "bad", than a mother gives birth to a criminal! Children aren't criminals at birth....but by making bad choices (again because of free moral agency), they make themselves criminals. The same with the Devil.

Take care.

Hockeycowboy · Dec 30, 2017

Deeje said:
And you know this for a fact, do you?

If this is what you think, then you have no idea what the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represented.

Do you really want to know? If all you want to do is ridicule the Bible and its narrative, without understanding the reasons for anything, then obviously you have no need to ask questions if you don't really want the answers. Everything you just said tells me that you haven't got a clue what happened in Eden. You have already judged it all by your own interpretation, which is so far off base that it's actually quite funny.

Believe whatever you wish. It makes no difference to me.

I guess these skeptics think they're smarter than Newton, although the Adam and Eve account is read the same today, as it was then. Cracks me up!

I was going to post this to @QuestioningMind, but I'll do it here (my reply was getting too long, it was overshadowing the answer):

"You know, Milton, Newton, Boyle and others were deep thinkers who were serious students of the Bible. In fact, Newton said, "I study the Bible daily.' His conclusion? "There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible that in any profane history."
(Isaac Newton Quotes ; Isaac Newton Quotes - BrainyQuote) If you study Newton's theological writings, you'll find he didn't particularly care for religion of his day, but he loved the Bible.... Newton realized that what religion taught and did, had no effect on the Bible's "authenticity". He was able to separate the two. So it wasn't for nothing why he thought the Bible was truth."

Newton's statement about the thumb is interesting.

gnostic · Dec 30, 2017

Hockeycowboy said:
According to the Bible, the ark had three decks (floors). It is not difficult to show that there was plenty of room for 16,000 animals, assuming they required approximately the same floor space as animals in typical farm enclosures and laboratories today. The vast majority of the creatures (birds, reptiles, and mammals) are small. The largest animals were probably only a few hundred pounds of body weight.

If all 3 decks have animals, then where would you have food?

You do remember that humans and animals were STUCK in the Ark for ONE WHOLE YEAR, which would mean a whole year supply of food.

And what of the domesticated and wild carnivore animals? What did they eat?

And one whole year, food cannot be kept that long. There is no refrigeration. The humidity would be very high, not to mention the daily urine and excrement causing the whole place to stink, since they are stuck in the confine of the decks, which would cause any food to spoil quickly.

And what did they drink?

In the first 5 days of rain and water coming out of underground springs, the water outside would be undrinkable.

You are not thinking logically.

And think about this. Australia always have marsupial fauna, long before the arrival of ancestors of Indigenous Australians, about 65,000 years ago. They are nothing like marsupials in the American continents are very different from those found in Australia.

So how Noah get Australian marsupials into the Ark from Australia, then back to Australia from Ararat mountains? And how would slow moving koala and wombats make the journey to Australia, without being prey to animals in Asia?

You would expect there be signs of remains of marsupials Ararat, all the way to Australia, via Asia, and yet we find not a single marsupials in the Asian continents.

Subduction Zone · Dec 30, 2017

Hockeycowboy said:
I guess these skeptics think they're smarter than Newton, although the Adam and Eve account is read the same today, as it was then. Cracks me up!

I was going to post this to @QuestioningMind, but I'll do it here (my reply was getting too long, it was overshadowing the answer):

"You know, Milton, Newton, Boyle and others were deep thinkers who were serious students of the Bible. In fact, Newton said, "I study the Bible daily.' His conclusion? "There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible that in any profane history."
(Isaac Newton Quotes ; Isaac Newton Quotes - BrainyQuote) If you study Newton's theological writings, you'll find he didn't particularly care for religion of his day, but he loved the Bible.... Newton realized that what religion taught and did, had no effect on the Bible's "authenticity". He was able to separate the two. So it wasn't for nothing why he thought the Bible was truth."

Newton's statement about the thumb is interesting.

Please, Newton was ignorant of quite a few topics. He understood quite a bit for his day, but since much of the work in various sciences had not been done yet the fact that he was ignorant about various sciences does not mean that people think that they are smarter than he was. He recognized that himself. Or perhaps you are unaware of his quote about seeing further because he stood on the shoulders of giants.

He only appealed to religion for that which he did not understand.

Your error here was an inappropriate appeal to authority.

Subduction Zone · Dec 30, 2017

gnostic said:
If all 3 decks have animals, then where would you have food?

You do remember that humans and animals were STUCK in the Ark for ONE WHOLE YEAR, which would mean a whole year supply of food.

And what of the domesticated and wild carnivore animals? What did they eat?

And one whole year, food cannot be kept that long. There is no refrigeration. The humidity would be very high, not to mention the daily urine and excrement causing the whole place to stink, since they are stuck in the confine of the decks, which would cause any food to spoil quickly.

And what did they drink?

In the first 5 days of rain and water coming out of underground springs, the water outside would be undrinkable.

You are not thinking logically.

And think about this. Australia always have marsupial fauna, long before the arrival of ancestors of Indigenous Australians, about 65,000 years ago. They are nothing like marsupials in the American continents are very different from those found in Australia.

So how Noah get Australian marsupials into the Ark from Australia, then back to Australia from Ararat mountains? And how would slow moving koala and wombats make the journey to Australia, without being prey to animals in Asia?

You would expect there be signs of remains of marsupials Ararat, all the way to Australia, via Asia, and yet we find not a single marsupials in the Asian continents.

Unfortunately Conservipedia finally edited their page on the spreading of species after the flood. Seriously they used to propose that exploding volcanoes could have been the cause.

sayak83 · Dec 31, 2017

gnostic said:
Resource section???

Resources

Deeje · Dec 31, 2017

gnostic said:
Fact: For something of the size of the Ark to float on water, it would require lot of water to float the Ark. You do remember the Ark was supposedly 30 cubits high, which is roughly about 15 metres. So the water would have to be at least half that deep. But that's only true, if you are ignoring the weight of the Ark, the people, animals and food inside the 3-deck vessel.

The water need to be at least 20 metres deep before the Ark would float.

And you think that water covering the highest mountain in the known world was less than 20 meters deep?
It was torrential rain for 40 days and nights as well as underground springs bursting open to empty their contents above ground. This was the Creator doing this remember....it was not a natural phenomenon. (Genesis 7:17-20) The worst of the weather would have been over by the time the ark began to float. All were safe inside. God had closed the door.

Jesus is said to have calmed a storm when the vessel he was in was threatened with capsize. He calmed the sea and the storm with a word...."HUSH". I am assuming that the year Noah and his family spent in the ark was relatively calm and peaceful whilst the water was subsiding. God would have seen to it.

gnostic said:
But, before you even reach that depth, the water would have soaked and saturated the ground it was built on. Meaning it would turn to mud long before there is even 2 metres of water. 2 metres (comparable to height of very tall man, eg 6 feet 7 inches) of water is not enough to float the Ark, but enough to turn soil, silt and clay into mud. By 3 metres, the heavy Ark would sink deeper into mud. By 10 metres, the Ark would be marooned so far and so deep into the ground, that it will not float.

When you have the volume of water that the Bible speaks of, believe me the ark would float. It was not designed by man....it was designed by the greatest engineer in existence. It is feeble to put such limits on the Almighty, like he can't do anything that would limit humans.

gnostic said:
Now I don't know where Noah lived and what he did for a living. Was he a farmer growing and harvesting crops or raising livestock, or shepherd, or carpenter or shipwright?

Like I said, I don't know where he lived and where he build his Ark, but I can hazard some guesses with common sense.

"Guesses and common sense"....you mean like you do with evolution? Guesses can be very disappointing when the real evidence shows up. I am expecting the real evidence to show up sometime in the very near future.

Every mystery will be solved.

gnostic said:
But since God supposedly only want to save Noah and his family, so pretty much it is a secret. Noah wouldn't be able to keep it a secret, if he build his Ark near urban areas, like villages, towns or cities. So the place has to be secluded.

Since the Bible speaks about Noah as "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) I am assuming that he did nothing in secret since he preached to people about what was going to happen. And since it solicited ridicule and scorn from the people who later perished, it demonstrates that the people he preached to didn't believe him. Since the Bible indicates that it had never rained before the flood, then Noah was telling them that something monumental was going to happen, the likes of which man had never seen before. Jesus used the "days of Noah" to indicate what would happen again....this time not by water. (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 3:3-7)

gnostic said:
So not only he must ensure they eat and food supply, I am guessing that he would live on farm, where he grow his own food, but at the same time, he need a place to build his Ark.

So his Ark project would have to be near his home and farm, perhaps in the closest clearing within the forest.

Since he needed to fell so many trees in order to build the ark to God's specifications, it would make sense to have the timber nearby.
Perhaps the cleared timber provided the needed space for the construction? He would have needed an entire forest to build something that big.

gnostic said:
If Noah and his sons spent decades building the Ark, then he would need to build it as near as possible to lot of tall trees for timbers. So, the clearing where he is building his Ark, like his farm, would be on soil, not on rocky surface.

All the above is logical, if Noah need a place secluded enough to build his Ark, and grow his food. All that to me, tell me the surface would be soil, of either clay or silt.

It was not secluded. And it made no difference what land it was built on. God was behind this project and Noah followed all the instructions he was given.

gnostic said:
Have you ever being in a situation where you have experience of flash flood in rural areas?

I have seen many on TV news but thankfully never experienced a flood of that magnitude myself.

gnostic said:
The churning waters are often brown because of the (rural) area are covered in soil and dirt. The ground the Ark was built upon, would turn into mud, and due to the weight of the Ark, it would sink into that mud. And the more water there are, the deeper the saturation in the soil.

I simply don't see the Ark floating in the first few days of rain.

Who said it floated in the first few days of rain?

Genesis 7:17-20..."The flooding continued for 40 days on the earth, and the waters kept increasing and began carrying the ark, and it was floating high above the earth. 18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains."

You can believe it or not.

God does not need the opinions of humans to carry out his purpose. If God said the ark floated and the water covered the tallest mountains by over 6 metres, then I have no reason to disbelieve him.

gnostic · Dec 31, 2017

sayak83 said:
Resources

Thanks, sayak. I have not been this part of the forums.

gnostic · Dec 31, 2017

Deeje said:
And you think that water covering the highest mountain in the known world was less than 20 meters deep?

You have misunderstood my meaning, Deeje.

I am not talking about how deep the water after the 40 days and 40 nights.

I am talking about how deep the water "need to be", to float the Ark...so the "first few days" of rain.

Do you really think that flood covered all the mountains, on the "1st COUPLE OF DAYS???"

And do you really think the Ark would immediately float on the very 1st day they boarded the Ark?

The ground where the Ark was built, would turn into mud sooner than there being enough water to float the Ark.

The more it rain, the deeper the water will soak the soil, plus the weight of the Ark and everything in it, would cause the Ark sink deeper into the mud.

gnostic · Dec 31, 2017

Deeje said:
Who said it floated in the first few days of rain?

I didn't say that. I said the ground would turn to mud, long before the depth of water reach a level where the water could float the Ark..

I have also said more it rain, the deeper the saturation of soil, which combined with the weight of the Ark, would cause the Ark to sink ever lower into ground.

The weight of the Ark and everything in the Ark, would cause the Ark to be trap in mud.

You really not thinking logically or even with common sense, Deeje.

gnostic · Dec 31, 2017

Deeje said:
You can believe it or not. God does not need the opinions of humans to carry out his purpose.

God didn't write the Genesis, Deeje.

Noah didn't write the Genesis. Nor did Moses, which most Jewish and Christian traditions have ascribe the authorship to.

There are no evidences of any Hebrew writing existing in the Bronze Age. Genesis was most likely written by a number of different people, between 7th and 5th centuries BCE.

Deeje · Dec 31, 2017

gnostic said:
You have misunderstood my meaning, Deeje.

I am not talking about how deep the water after the 40 days and 40 nights.

I am talking about how deep the water "need to be", to float the Ark...so the "first few days" of rain.

Do you really think that flood covered all the mountains, on the "1st COUPLE OF DAYS???"

And do you really think the Ark would immediately float on the very 1st day they boarded the Ark?

The ground where the Ark was built, would turn into mud sooner than there being enough water to float the Ark.

The more it rain, the deeper the water will soak the soil, plus the weight of the Ark and everything in it, would cause the Ark sink deeper into the mud.

If you read my post you will see that I have no belief that the ark floated in the first couple of days......you are attacking a strawman of your own making.

Deeje · Dec 31, 2017

gnostic said:
I didn't say that. I said the ground would turn to mud, long before the depth of water reach a level where the water could float the Ark..

I have also said more it rain, the deeper the saturation of soil, which combined with the weight of the Ark, would cause the Ark to sink ever lower into ground.

The weight of the Ark and everything in the Ark, would cause the Ark to be trap in mud.

You really not thinking logically or even with common sense, Deeje.

"Logically"?.....according to whose logic? You think that all this was too difficult for the one who created matter. :facepalm:

Seriously mate, you can believe whatever you like.
God does not require your approval or your logic to set a task for his faithful servants.
Whatever he decrees will take place, I assure you.

gnostic said:
God didn't write the Genesis, Deeje.

Noah didn't write the Genesis. Nor did Moses, which most Jewish and Christian traditions have ascribe the authorship to.

Who said Noah wrote Genesis? Though he could have kept a log....we simply don't know.

Moses wrote Genesis and I have no interest in anyone's "tradition" ascribing authorship to anyone else, OK?

You are free to believe whatever you wish.

There are no evidences of any Hebrew writing existing in the Bronze Age. Genesis was most likely written by a number of different people, between 7th and 5th centuries BCE.

Again, who said so?

and what if they're wrong?

Subduction Zone · Dec 31, 2017

Deeje said:
"Logically"?.....according to whose logic? You think that all this was too difficult for the one who created matter.
Seriously mate, you can believe whatever you like.
God does not require your approval or your logic to set a task for his faithful servants.
Whatever he decrees will take place, I assure you.

Who said Noah wrote Genesis? Though he could have kept a log....we simply don't know.

Moses wrote Genesis and I have no interest in anyone's "tradition" ascribing authorship to anyone else, OK?

You are free to believe whatever you wish.

Again, who said so? and what if they're wrong?

People that read and understood not only the Bible, but the Hebrew texts that it came from and the older pieces that were copied and adopted by the Hebrews.

Once again, you should try to learn why we know that there was no flood. Even if God somehow magically zapped the water in and magically zapped the water away so that it left no record at all you still cannot explain the lack of a universal population bottleneck. Nor can you explain how millions of species could have been on the Ark.

When a Christian claims that there was a flood that Christian is also claiming that his or her God lied.

gnostic · Dec 31, 2017

Deeje said:
If you read my post you will see that I have no belief that the ark floated in the first couple of days......you are attacking a strawman of your own making.

You still don't understand.

My post is about the nature of the ground, the saturation of the ground, and the total weight of the Ark, of how the Ark cannot possibly float.

It is not strawman. I am talking about simply physics, the properties of soil and water, don't add up to the Flood, PERIOD!

Isn't that the whole point of this thread, Deeje?

Did the Flood happen or not? Was the Ark real or not?

Or are you changing the goalpost to this thread?

gnostic · Dec 31, 2017

Deeje said:
"Logically"?.....according to whose logic? You think that all this was too difficult for the one who created matter.

If you drop a bowling ball into 1 metre deep pool of mud, don't you think the ball will sink down to the bottom?

The Ark is a lot heavier than the bowling ball, Deeje.

Subduction Zone · Dec 31, 2017

gnostic said:
If you drop a bowling ball into 1 metre deep pool of mud, don't you think the ball will sink down to the bottom?

The Ark is a lot heavier than the bowling ball, Deeje.

Actually probably not. Some bowling balls float and they would almost be certainly denser than the mud in a pool. Bowling balls that weigh less than 12 pounds float, those that weigh more sink, and the twelve pound balls are almost the exact same density as water:

Do bowling balls float?

Deeje · Dec 31, 2017

Subduction Zone said:
People that read and understood not only the Bible, but the Hebrew texts that it came from and the older pieces that were copied and adopted by the Hebrews.

"People that read and understood the Bible" can claim whatever they like.....I don't have to believe them.

Subduction Zone said:
Once again, you should try to learn why we know that there was no flood. Even if God somehow magically zapped the water in and magically zapped the water away so that it left no record at all you still cannot explain the lack of a universal population bottleneck. Nor can you explain how millions of species could have been on the Ark.

You don't "know" that there was no flood....you simply don't "believe" that there was one. You don't have enough evidence to convince you....but then you don't know God, or his capabilities, so how can you be so sure?

We don't have all the details or any idea what species were on the ark. They were all land dwellers because marine creatures survived outside of it. All we know is that God chose the specimens and brought them to Noah.

The water came from the sky and from underground springs....40 days and nights of torrential rain, not in just a local area but all over the world. It covered the highest mountains with over 6 metres of water according to Genesis. Can a God who created the universe find it too difficult to do that?

What "population bottleneck" was going to challenge the Creator? Tell me please what limits you put on this being. Does he have the limits you are suggesting? I don't believe so. You can believe whatever you like.

As the title suggests, this thread was created for Christians as a discussion, but atheists cannot resist wanting to throw in their 2cents worth, so it got moved. This is not where I wanted this thread to be...just so you know.

Subduction Zone said:
When a Christian claims that there was a flood that Christian is also claiming that his or her God lied.

You've tried that on before. It was hogwash then...its still hogwash now.
I am a Christian and I am claiming that there was indeed a global deluge in which only 8 humans survived. Whatever else survived, was God's doing. However he repopulated the earth, was also his doing. He doesn't lie and neither do I.

Deeje · Dec 31, 2017

gnostic said:
Isn't that the whole point of this thread, Deeje?

Did the Flood happen or not? Was the Ark real or not?

Or are you changing the goalpost to this thread?

I believe the flood happened just the way Genesis said it did.....and for the reasons it said also.

I don't need you to believe it......that the flood happened is not in question in my view.
You are entitled to your view.

The goal of the thread was a discussion between Christians, in case you missed the title.....but it didn't finish up that way.

For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

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