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Why a Near-Death Experience Isn’t Proof of Heaven

Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
George-ananda said:
One point is that things are also known remtely like the sister in the waiting room or gym shoe on the roof. In the Pam Reynolds’ case the brain was shut-down.

I don’t know that ‘proof’ is possible in the strictest use of the word ‘proof’ as consciousness can not be directly observed.
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There's no way to verify NDE experiences ever occur when the brain is put in stasis and activity stops.


It's pretty well certain those events had transpired when she started to experience brain activity as she slowly regained consciousness after the procedure.

NDEs can only occur when brain activity is active.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Nowhere Man said:
There's no way to verify NDE experiences ever occur when the brain is put in stasis and activity stops.


It's pretty well certain those events had transpired when she started to experience brain activity as she slowly regained consciousness after the procedure.

NDEs can only occur when brain activity is active.
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Geez, your position seems the opposite of what the reports suggest.

How the heck then did she know details from when the brain was shutdown? Like the equipment used on her?
 
Eliab ben Benjamin

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
Nowhere Man said:
It's pretty clear cut NDEs have everything to do with brain activity.

Most near-death experiences occur whenever the person is regaining consciousness, and brain activity ramps up or the converse, or when the brain gets distressed in some manner like oxygen deprivation.
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Sorry nowhere man, you are nowhere near correct, perhaps if you had experience of a death experience, or maybe had your death certificate on your wall as I have.... I was confirmed Brain Dead, for 4 days, and returned in 'ward 13' (the mourge)
 
Mindmaster

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Nakosis said:
The subconscious mind is fully capable of creating a religious experience.
Does this rule out supernatural explanations? No, but it provides an alternate explanation which doesn't require the involvement of supernatural agents.

While I don't doubt the religious experience, the sense of reality of the experience that comes with them. I can't help but question the source.
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Yes, but isn't the 'subconscious' itself real, ergo the experiences you have during say a dream or an NDE are equally real... as apparently subjective as they are... What do you predict the consequences of rejecting such subjective experiences would be on you in the long term, and what is rational about rejecting them? What does supernatural mean anyway? What can you experience that isn't natural?

This is the problem I have with scientific materialism in lines of thought anyway, it starts with an arrogant presupposition that one thing is right and one thing isn't. That because something isn't logical, it's invalid... Everyone else's experiences are invalid because you can't explain them, or relate to them. See what I mean about arrogance? :D
 
The Kilted Heathen

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
shunyadragon said:
Yes, they do occur, but they do not have a long term reality with normal common events.
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How do you know? If hallucinations are detected by the same areas of the brain that perceive "real" things, then how can you be sure that the person you're talking to is real?

God does not speak to me. If God did I would seriously question it and consider it a hallucination.
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I am curious, then, as to just what makes prophets so very different.

The 'norm' is not standard of of hallucinations and valid perceptions of reality.
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Of course it is. Seeing your mother isn't "odd". Seeing Dwight Eisenhower would be.

You are seriously neglecting the history of human existence and the diverse nature of the real human experience across many religions and cultures.
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Am I? Because most of human existence has treated what we call hallucinations today as somewhat normal to human spirituality. It hasn't been until the dawn of psychology that it's regarded as abnormal and false. I'm not neglecting anything in posing "what if" paradigm shifts.

I will give science the edge with Methodological Naturalism in comprehending our physical reality without the possible distortions of hallucinations on an individual and group basis.
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Well, there goes a great wealth of Abrahamic prophecies.
 
DennisTate

DennisTate

Active Member
The Ragin Pagan said:
And how then do you tell, shun, what is a hallucination and what is real? What road of madness would one tread, when they can't even trust their own perceptions?
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Personally.... I take the near death experience account of Black Elk.....
just as seriously as the NDE's of Christians.....
such as Colton Burpo... even though the context for the NDE of
little Mr. Burpo is a lot more similar to the ideas that I grew up with than
is the NDE of Black Elk......


Native American Black Elk's Near-Death Experiences


I do happen to have a discussion going that may assist in giving the background to all this......


Dr. Chaim Tejman explains the origin of life.....


and it all makes better sense if you also read posts #2 and #3 here:


In the Beginning...
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Ragin Pagan said:
How do you know? If hallucinations are detected by the same areas of the brain that perceive "real" things, then how can you be sure that the person you're talking to is real?
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Of course, we do not 'know' in any absolute sense. The whole world can be an illusion, but whether it is or not it is a very real experience along with the pain, and everything else that goes along with being human.

I am curious, then, as to just what makes prophets so very different.
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Be curious, because I do not know, neither do you. I am not a prophet.

Of course it is. Seeing your mother isn't "odd". Seeing Dwight Eisenhower would be.
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I have meet Dwight Eisenhower personally, and yes my mother is not odd,

Am I? Because most of human existence has treated what we call hallucinations today as somewhat normal to human spirituality. It hasn't been until the dawn of psychology that it's regarded as abnormal and false. I'm not neglecting anything in posing "what if" paradigm shifts.
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I do not consider your 'what ifs? paradigm shifts meaningful. It is obvious that the ancients were limited in their world. History is meaningful and instructive, but I avoid living and dwelling in the past. I will go with the evolving modern science and psychology.

Well, there goes a great wealth of Abrahamic prophecies.
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That is a very possible scenario. Many of the supposed prophesies are genuinely bogus like the city of Tyre will never be rebuilt or occupied.

I personally believe that Revelation does not come trough 'talking' to God, but transmitted knowledge, spiritual laws and guidance. Again, neither of us are a prophet talking to God, therefore I am clueless how this would take place if it did.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
George-ananda said:
Geez, your position seems the opposite of what the reports suggest.

How the heck then did she know details from when the brain was shutdown? Like the equipment used on her?
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It's science. How do you determine if the experience of nde's occurred when the brain is shutdown? You can't. There's nothing to support that.

But we do know for a fact the same type of experiences can be, and are present whenever the brain is active in some degree. Pilots in training have the same experiences when exposed to extreme G forces, or people on certain types of drugs or whatnot that alter the mind to produce those same experiences. Each and every time, the brain is clearly active during these moments. There is no reason to really think otherwise. To say that NDEs occur when the brain is completely shut down..... No, I don't think so.

There is absolutely nothing that supports a notion that there is any NDE experience at the moment in time when the brain is shut down.

Everything however supports the fact whenever the brain registers activity, some crazy type things can be experienced.

All this happens when the brain is active.

I think, based on what's been shown so far, is all these NDE type experiences occur when the brain is registering some kind of activity.

You do know based on past discussions, patients are pretty much briefed on what the procedure is, and what tools are to be used prior to going in.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Eliab ben Benjamin said:
Sorry nowhere man, you are nowhere near correct, perhaps if you had experience of a death experience, or maybe had your death certificate on your wall as I have.... I was confirmed Brain Dead, for 4 days, and returned in 'ward 13' (the mourge)
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So what makes you think this happened when your brain had shut down, and not when you were slowly coming to?

How is the point of time determined?

I'm glad you survived though. :0)
 
socharlie

socharlie

Active Member
shunyadragon said:
Of course, we do not 'know' in any absolute sense. The whole world can be an illusion, but whether it is or not it is a very real experience along with the pain, and everything else that goes along with being human.



Be curious, because I do not know, neither do you. I am not a prophet.



I have meet Dwight Eisenhower personally, and yes my mother is not odd,



I do not consider your 'what ifs? paradigm shifts meaningful. It is obvious that the ancients were limited in their world. History is meaningful and instructive, but I avoid living and dwelling in the past. I will go with the evolving modern science and psychology.



That is a very possible scenario. Many of the supposed prophesies are genuinely bogus like the city of Tyre will never be rebuilt or occupied.

I personally believe that Revelation does not come trough 'talking' to God, but transmitted knowledge, spiritual laws and guidance. Again, neither of us are a prophet talking to God, therefore I am clueless how this would take place if it did.
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NDE is like being dropped with parachute in the middle of Mexico City, never know where you end up unless your senses are trained to guide,
Nowhere Man said:
It's pretty clear cut NDEs have everything to do with brain activity.

Most near-death experiences occur whenever the person is regaining consciousness, and brain activity ramps up or the converse, or when the brain gets distressed in some manner like oxygen deprivation.
Click to expand...
Quantum Physicist: Consciousness Arises Outside of the Brain
alternative POV.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
socharlie said:
NDE is like being dropped with parachute in the middle of Mexico City, never know where you end up unless your senses are trained to guide,
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Remains an analogy based on speculation without evidence.

Quantum Physicist: Consciousness Arises Outside of the Brain alternative POV.
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From your source:

"A quantum physicist at Chungbuk National University in Korea has provided mathematical evidence that consciousness cannot be simulated in or replicated by a computer, and in turn that it cannot be the byproduct of neurological activity in the brain."

This is speculation based on an 'argument from ignorance' assuming that consciousness cannot be simulated in the future. Present computer technology is rather primitive when compared to the brain.

The bottom line is that there is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence whatsoever that consciousness arises outside the brain. The actual real scientific knowledge at present directly links the mind and consciousness with the activity of the brain.

Math in and of itself is not evidence. It represents a form of logic to model reality from the human perspective.
 
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socharlie

socharlie

Active Member
shunyadragon said:
From your source:

"A quantum physicist at Chungbuk National University in Korea has provided mathematical evidence that consciousness cannot be simulated in or replicated by a computer, and in turn that it cannot be the byproduct of neurological activity in the brain."

This is speculation based on an 'argument from ignorance' assuming that consciousness cannot be simulated in the future. Present computer technology is rather primitive when compared to the brain.

The bottom line is that there is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence whatsoever that consciousness arises outside the brain. The actual real scientific knowledge at present directly links the mind and consciousness with the activity of the brain.

Math in and of itself is not evidence. It represents a form of logic to model reality from the human perspective.
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that what science is - now, it always corrects itself with new findings. Science have no firm idea what consciousness is. Ancient wisdom have.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
socharlie said:
it is kind of my point - science does not know, and may not know any time soon, I have my internal proof what is what and if someone does not have such proof it surely does not mean that there is no such proof.
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It's true science doesn't know the ultimate questions, but it definitely has made progressive inroads in explaining things like this.

I would love to have my personal views and thoughts confirmed as well. But much rather have science steer me in the right directions because I'm curious what the truth actually is, not what I would think or wanted it to be.

Anyways I think all the questions will be definitely "answered" whether we remember such things or not once we all pass away.
 
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