74x12
Well-Known Member
Those who pass away.
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The Last Prophecy of Revelation
- Thread starter Faithofchristian
- Start date
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
You do know, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
You know Christ Jesus said of Himself in the book of Luke 24:46--"Thus it is written, and it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day"
Who's the dead, That Jesus is referring to?
74x12
Well-Known Member
Of course.
When pressed to do so Jesus said Lazarus was dead. (John 11:14) And what He meant is obviously Lazarus was bodily dead. Which is exactly why I said it that way for clarification. I don't want to confuse people.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
I still don't think you get it.
The word Rapture simply means "carried away" or "plucked".
The Rapture can occur PRE-Trib, which is before the Tribulation.
The Rapture can occur MID-Trib, which is in the middle of the Tribulation.
The Rapture can occur POST-Trib, which is after the Tribulation.
All you've told us, with your statement that the Rapture cannot happen until after the Tribulation has ended, is that you are most likely POST-Trib.
In other words, there are millions of people who believe the Rapture will NOT happen until AFTER the Tribulation. They are still Rapturists.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
SInce the 7th trumpet marks the end of the tribulation, how can it sound "after", or "immediately after" the tribulation has ended?
You just quoted the verse. it's in Revelation 10:7.
In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound..."
The seventh angel sounds the trumpet and the trumpet will sound for days.
Is see two bodies here...one dead the other alive.
The church is the body of Christ and we (his followers) are the "eagles" reuniting with Christ in the air. It is the living body.
“But those who wait on the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint” (Isaiah 40:31).
'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself.
Also, eagles are often associated with something rapid and swift:
"Saul and Jonathan, beloved and pleasant in their life, And in their death they were not parted; They were swifter than eagles, They were stronger than lions. (2 Samuel 1:23)
"Behold, he goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles Woe to us, for we are ruined!" (Jeremiah 4:13)
"Behold, he goes up like clouds, And his chariots like the whirlwind; His horses are swifter than eagles Woe to us, for we are ruined!" (Jeremiah 4:13)
However I also see a parallel with this verse at Matthew 24:28:
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
IMO, the eagles are those taken to meet the Lord in the air and those left behind are with the vultures.
Let's look at what the scripture says again:
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3)
These are not individual trials, but from the hour of trial coming upon the entire world.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
As to how do you get the Rapture to happen before the Tribulation, When Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens. Which bring the end to the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.
Therefore Christ Jesus can Not return until the last Prophecy happens. Which by that time, The Tribulation is over.
Maybe you should study the book of Revelation more. To see what Prophecy's God has given.and when they will happen.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
So in the hour of temptation, who do you think that is, that's going to be trying people in that hour of temptation?
74x12
Well-Known Member
Immediately after the tribulation. Instantly. The point is when the 7th trumpet sounds the Lord returns and the tribulation is over. You can say it was already over; fine. 1 second before? Immediately is immediately. It makes little difference.
The KJV is what I quoted. The actual Greek word being translated there as "when" is actually translated elsewhere in the KJV as
- to be about
- to be on the point of doing or suffering something
- to intend, have in mind, think to
(English man's Greek new Testament)
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound[the] trumpet, also should be completed the mystery of God, as he did announce the glad tidings to his bondmen the prophets.
(Young's Literal Translation) Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when he may be about to sound, and the secret of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the prophets.
(World English Bible)
Revelation 10:7
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as he declared to his servants, the prophets.
That's good and makes sense. Still, this doesn't prove the pre-tribulation.
I didn't say they were individual trials? The promise is to the specific church of Philadelphia that they will be kept from a world wide trial. The temptation was/is certainly on the whole world.
Oeste
Well-Known Member
It makes a HUGE hermeneutical difference, because it is not Oeste but scripture that says “After”.
After is after, whether immediately after, shortly after, or forever after. If the 7th trumpet marks the end of the tribulation it cannot possibly be sounded AFTER the tribulation period has ended.
The trumpet that sounds the end cannot be the trumpet that sounds after
If we can do that with “immediately after”, what can we expect to do with “immediately before”??
That's fine, but an important part is not to forget the first part of the verse:
In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound..." (Rev 10:7)
It doesn't say "In the day" nor "In the hour", nor "In the moment"
Thank you! However don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to "prove" pre-tribulation. Biblical hermeneutics does not allow us to "prove" anything but it does allow one to give evidence and with the "weight of the evidence" support a particular position.
My goal here was not to show there was a pre-tribulation rapture but to give evidence there will be a rapture. Whether someone believes it pre, mid, or post-trib makes no difference to me.
Sorry, I should have wrote "congregational" trials. Let's look at the verse again:
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3)
When reading the text it appears pretty clear that the Philadelphians were being kept from the trial that would test the entire earth. It also becomes apparent that Jesus wasn't keeping them from the trial because they were Philadelphians (unless Jesus is a respecter of persons). Rather Jesus states it's because they kept his command to endure patiently.
The only way I could see this applying solely to the congregation at Philadelphia is if this congregation was the only congregation keeping Jesus' command to endure patiently.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Immediately is immediately. How do you even know that the 7th trumpet "marks the end"? I would say that if something happens immediately after then it could mark the end. But, you're getting caught up on that so how do you know it "marks the end" anyway?
Again you're using the KJV.
The "days of the voice of the seventh angel" seem to be when he is about to sound.
(English man's Greek new Testament)
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound[the] trumpet, also should be completed the mystery of God, as he did announce the glad tidings to his bondmen the prophets.
As I pointed out with Peter and John. God works with different people differently. Someone might have to go through more persecution that someone else. The same is true of different churches.
Here is something a bit different. Some people actually believe the 7 churches of Revelation are 7 dispensations or generations of the church in history. They would say the church of Laodicea represents the final state of the church before Christ's return rather than the church of Philadelphia. I am not saying I believe this myself, but it's possible and something to consider.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and People will say that Revelation 17, The Mother of Harlots is the Roman Catholic Church, which is not true.The Roman Catholic Church has nothing to do with Revelation 17.
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
Because all the other trumpets have sounded and the seventh trumpet is the final, third woe where all the worst of the tribulation period...the bowl judgments, occur. It is not the end of the tribulation period but it does mark it. It is past the mid-point of the 7 year period.
That would take some research, specifically what words did the earliest manuscripts subscribe to, where these manuscripts were written and how many of the manuscripts carry these words. Unfortunately I just do not have the time right now so I will have to defer comment on this.
That is true, but I was wondering if you have a theological framework which helps you define which scriptural verses are applicable only to the congregations they were addressed to and which scriptural verses apply to the rest of us.
Without such a framework it would be very easy to say that whatever Jesus said to the Pharisees applied only to the Pharisees, what he said to the Jews in general applied only to those Jews within earshot of his voice, and the epistles only applied to the churches they were addressed to. As for the rest of us the scripture applicable would be to repent (Acts 26:20), keep free from strangled animals, sexual immorality, and idols (Acts 21:25)
I agree with the classic Dispensational view which to me is simply a way of organizing God treatment of man through history. I also agree that Israel is Israel as I do not subscribe to replacement theology. It's understandable how some came to believe the Church was Israel (even though scripture never states that) but now that the state of Israel has burst upon the scene there is no need to hold onto replacement theology.
Having said that, there is another, IMO heretical view of Dispensationalism, called ultra (or hyper) Dispensationalism and sometimes referred to as Bullingerism. They teach the 4 gospels were written to the Jews and do not apply to the church today, that the church spoken of in Acts does not pertain to the Body of Christ but to some other church and even more things that I'd rather not get into on this thread. Your suggestion that the instructions to the Philadelphians apply only to the Philadelphians and not to the Christian church readily align with ultra-Dispensational views.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Oeste
Well-Known Member
By "7 year period" I mean the "70th week" as described by Daniel at Daniel 29:24-27.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
I'm supposing that when God's world coincides with the natural world as scheduled, rapture, as described, is probably what it will look like as we slip into God's dimension to those who are left in the natural world. Prolly all stretchy, lengthening out to a speck and dissappearing.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Where do you get those left in the natural world, do you know that Paul Written in
1st Corinthians 15:52--" in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"
Do you understand what the last trump is ?
Do you understand who the dead are ?
When Christ Jesus returns, the body of flesh drops, our spirit comes forth to meet the Lord in the Spirit. To see the Lord as he is in the Spiritual world. And not of flesh and blood.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Those that don't get raptured are going to be left in the natural world.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
As to how do you come by the Rapture, when Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens that God has given in Revelation.
When this last Prophecy happens brings the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.
So by your Rapture, for it to happen, Christ Jesus comes, But Christ Jesus can not return until the last Prophecy happens that God has given in Revelation Chapter 11.
So by the time your Rapture is to happen the Tribulation is over, ended.
For the last Prophecy that happens, brings the end to the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.and not before.
This is why God has given the book of Revelation, so we would know the coming events that are to happen that will lead up to the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.
Therefore by the time that the rapture is to happen, the Tribulation has ended,over, and Christ Jesus returns.at the end of the Tribulation.
This is why Christ Jesus said in Matthew 24:22, (the days of the Tribulation shall be shortened ) and the days of the Tribulation will be shortened, at the last Prophecy that God has given in Revelation 11. Which brings the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.
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