Did the true church ever vanish or completely fall away?

osgart · Dec 3, 2017

Christianity in it's truest sense is radical. Very extreme. I don't see that there ever was a true Christian church. Most of the Christians I come across are no different than the average worldly person. Self absorbed, and gain oriented they are and very closed off to the poor. Affluence, and exceptionalism is there goal, not the selfless love that Jesus called for. I don't see anyone who can live up to jesus's commands. Love your enemies, for example, no one does it, haven't seen one.

Phantasman · Dec 3, 2017

whirlingmerc said:
ye are gods is taken from a Psalm where God is addressing wicked rulers who in their office were meant to be
God's instrument of justice but were corrupt.... it appears to be a poetic device

Saying there are 'other gods' is not really consistent with the NT or OT

now priest in Peter is a fulfillment of God's words in the Exodus that someday 'you shall be a kingdom of priests' and that is fulfilled in the priesthood of believers in the church which is a typical protestant view. It would be interesting to know how Catholics understand this.

The Gospel is clear in who to listen to about the true God. And it wasn't Moses. Nor Abraham. Nor Isaiah. But Jesus. The catholics held to the OT ideas that Jesus said to let go of. The proof? They didn't recognize Jesus, and killed him. Just as the catholics killed the gnostics.

John:
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Why would I listen to Moses, if:

Jesus said he didn't get his bread from heaven. John 6:32

Jesus doesn't mention that Moses is a door to anything. John 10:18

The Holy Spirit tells us who to listen to. Mark 9:2-8.

Follow Moses if you like. Jesus said to teach the Gospel. The OT isn't the Gospel. Those who followed the OT died. John 6:58

These are just a few lines to show that the OT profits nothing. John 1:17

It's extremely hard to break the orthodox (and Bible) cycle. Which is why the path is narrow.

Phantasman · Dec 3, 2017

osgart said:
Christianity in it's truest sense is radical. Very extreme. I don't see that there ever was a true Christian church. Most of the Christians I come across are no different than the average worldly person. Self absorbed, and gain oriented they are and very closed off to the poor. Affluence, and exceptionalism is there goal, not the selfless love that Jesus called for. I don't see anyone who can live up to jesus's commands. Love your enemies, for example, no one does it, haven't seen one.

It is catholic orthodoxy (including the Protestant) that you speak of. Those who followed spiritual gnosis killed no one, and believe the Father has never killed any man. Perfect love doesn't allow such.

osgart · Dec 3, 2017

Phantasman said:
It is catholic orthodoxy (including the Protestant) that you speak of. Those who followed spiritual gnosis killed no one, and believe the Father has never killed any man. Perfect love doesn't allow such.

I have never come across gnosis, there are a few Gnostics on RF. Is it an Abrahamic religion? The only thing I might know about it is that they regard myths as lessons.

Phantasman · Dec 3, 2017

osgart said:
I have never come across gnosis, there are a few Gnostics on RF. Is it an Abrahamic religion? The only thing I might know about it is that they regard myths as lessons.

Not even close. Gnosis means knowledge, but more specifically experiential knowledge of the spirit, which Jesus and Paul taught of.

The "gnostics" rivaled the catholic ideology for almost the first 4 centuries.

The books teaching gnosis were bypassed to include the OT books instead. They glorify the Gospel and were taught by Paul and John. They are books created after the Holy Spirit was given to man by Christ, and do not agree with the books written before Christ (hence the Spirit of Truth speaking only after Christ gave it).

The gnostics believed that the Jews didn't recognize Christ as the son of God because they were of the ignorant one who thinks he is God. (as explained in John 8 and Pauls letters). The catholic ideology is that the OT god and the God Jesus spoke of are the same. Gnosis teaches they aren't. Through the teachings of the ignorant god, the Jews killed Jesus. That god is a murderer (and liar). The Father Jesus spoke of was truth and never murdered any man.

The gnosis books take the Gospel into a more spiritual understanding and leaves the material, physical, fleshly beliefs and rituals behind.

Faithofchristian · Dec 5, 2017

The true church of Christ Jesus has not vanished nor completely fall away.

The falling away comes first, Then the son of perdition is revealed. 2 Thess 2:3,4.

The question is, Who do you suppose is the son of perdition ?

Phantasman · Dec 5, 2017

Faithofchristian said:
The true church of Christ Jesus has not vanished nor completely fall away.

Already happened. Paul is warning of the false gospel (Galatians 1) and the occupation of the "priests" once again as celestial power. He was warning of the emerging catholic ideology that was threatening his (Pauls) gospel message. Again Galatians 1 and 2.

2 Thes 2:
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The papacy is what Paul is referring to.

The New Testament offers no proof that Jesus established the papacy, nor even that he established Peter as the first bishop of Rome.[36] Some theologians argue, using Peter's own words, that Christ intended himself--and not Peter--as the foundation of the church.[37][38] Others have argued that the church is indeed built upon Jesus and faith, but also on the disciples as the roots and foundations of the church on the basis of Paul's teaching in Romans and Ephesians, though not primarily Peter.[39][40] -WIKI

Again, the Incident at Antioch explains the historic meaning, as Pauls letters teaches the spiritual meaning.

metis · Dec 5, 2017

Phantasman said:
Already happened. Paul is warning of the false gospel (Galatians 1) and the occupation of the "priests" once again as celestial power. He was warning of the emerging catholic ideology that was threatening his (Pauls) gospel message. Again Galatians 1 and 2.

2 Thes 2:
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The papacy is what Paul is referring to.

The New Testament offers no proof that Jesus established the papacy, nor even that he established Peter as the first bishop of Rome.[36] Some theologians argue, using Peter's own words, that Christ intended himself--and not Peter--as the foundation of the church.[37][38] Others have argued that the church is indeed built upon Jesus and faith, but also on the disciples as the roots and foundations of the church on the basis of Paul's teaching in Romans and Ephesians, though not primarily Peter.[39][40] -WIKI

Again, the Incident at Antioch explains the historic meaning, as Pauls letters teaches the spiritual meaning.

Let me just say that the above makes no sense on multiple counts (see the red) if one is using the basic canon used by the vast majority of Christian denominations. However, I really have no desire to debate this again.

Faithofchristian · Dec 5, 2017

Phantasman said:
Already happened. Paul is warning of the false gospel (Galatians 1) and the occupation of the "priests" once again as celestial power. He was warning of the emerging catholic ideology that was threatening his (Pauls) gospel message. Again Galatians 1 and 2.

2 Thes 2:
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The papacy is what Paul is referring to.

The New Testament offers no proof that Jesus established the papacy, nor even that he established Peter as the first bishop of Rome.[36] Some theologians argue, using Peter's own words, that Christ intended himself--and not Peter--as the foundation of the church.[37][38] Others have argued that the church is indeed built upon Jesus and faith, but also on the disciples as the roots and foundations of the church on the basis of Paul's teaching in Romans and Ephesians, though not primarily Peter.[39][40] -WIKI

Again, the Incident at Antioch explains the historic meaning, as Pauls letters teaches the spiritual meaning.

That's to funny, You really need to get away from man's teachings, The son of perdition is Satan, Satan is the only one who has already been Judge and condemned to be destroyed by God. At the second coming of Christ Jesus.

Phantasman · Dec 5, 2017

Faithofchristian said:
That's to funny, You really need to get away from man's teachings, The son of perdition is Satan, Satan is the only one who has already been Judge and condemned to be destroyed by God. At the second coming of Christ Jesus.

Are you talking about Peter? The one Jesus called Satan?

You do not understand the word "Satan". You use the ignorance of the OT.

. The gospel of truth is joy for those who have received from the Father of truth the grace of knowing him, through the power of the Word that came forth from the pleroma, the one who is in the thought and the mind of the Father, that is, the one who is addressed as 'the Savior', (that) being the name of the work he is to perform for the redemption of those who were ignorant of the Father, while in the name of the gospel is the proclamation of hope, being discovery for those who search for him.

When the totality went about searching for the one from whom they had come forth - and the totality was inside of him, the incomprehensible, inconceivable one who is superior to every thought - ignorance of the Father brought about anguish and terror; and the anguish grew solid like a fog, so that no one was able to see. For this reason, error became powerful; it worked on its own matter foolishly, not having known the truth. It set about with a creation, preparing with power and beauty the substitute for the truth.- Gospel of Truth

There is truth and substitute of truth. Know the difference. It comes with knowledge (of Spirit).

As long as it is hidden, wickedness is indeed ineffectual, but it has not been removed from the midst of the seed of the Holy Spirit. They are slaves of evil. But when it is revealed, then the perfect light will flow out on every one. And all those who are in it will receive the chrism. Then the slaves will be free and the captives ransomed.- Gospel of Philip

Your teachers are "church priests". They lie, they murder, they prey on children, they love power and wealth, yet you follow them, their seed and their fruits. They are a slave to ignorance and the father of it. They judge and condemn. They tell man who, what and where God is.

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."- Apocalypse of Peter

There is a reason the emerging catholics didn't want man to have the knowledge, and why Paul called them "accursed". They desired power of the flesh. Through spiritual ignorance.

The Demiurge loves people to not see him as he is (imperfect creating imperfect), and that he takes the place of the Perfect Father in the minds of ignorant follows.

Faithofchristian · Dec 22, 2017

Did the True Church ever vanished or completely fall away.

The falling away, does not happen until the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
The man of sin and the son of perdition are both one and the same person.

But most people in the churches are being taught, that they are two different person's.
Unto which is not true.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 " Except there come a falling away first, And that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Plainly showing they are one and the same person.

Faithofchristian · Dec 22, 2017

Phantasman said:
Are you talking about Peter? The one Jesus called Satan?

You do not understand the word "Satan". You use the ignorance of the OT.

. The gospel of truth is joy for those who have received from the Father of truth the grace of knowing him, through the power of the Word that came forth from the pleroma, the one who is in the thought and the mind of the Father, that is, the one who is addressed as 'the Savior', (that) being the name of the work he is to perform for the redemption of those who were ignorant of the Father, while in the name of the gospel is the proclamation of hope, being discovery for those who search for him.

When the totality went about searching for the one from whom they had come forth - and the totality was inside of him, the incomprehensible, inconceivable one who is superior to every thought - ignorance of the Father brought about anguish and terror; and the anguish grew solid like a fog, so that no one was able to see. For this reason, error became powerful; it worked on its own matter foolishly, not having known the truth. It set about with a creation, preparing with power and beauty the substitute for the truth.- Gospel of Truth

There is truth and substitute of truth. Know the difference. It comes with knowledge (of Spirit).

As long as it is hidden, wickedness is indeed ineffectual, but it has not been removed from the midst of the seed of the Holy Spirit. They are slaves of evil. But when it is revealed, then the perfect light will flow out on every one. And all those who are in it will receive the chrism. Then the slaves will be free and the captives ransomed.- Gospel of Philip

Your teachers are "church priests". They lie, they murder, they prey on children, they love power and wealth, yet you follow them, their seed and their fruits. They are a slave to ignorance and the father of it. They judge and condemn. They tell man who, what and where God is.

"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."- Apocalypse of Peter

There is a reason the emerging catholics didn't want man to have the knowledge, and why Paul called them "accursed". They desired power of the flesh. Through spiritual ignorance.

The Demiurge loves people to not see him as he is (imperfect creating imperfect), and that he takes the place of the Perfect Father in the minds of ignorant follows.

You are way to funny, Peter Satan, that is to funny.
Christ Jesus was not calling Peter,Satan, Jesus was referring to Satan, speaking thru Peter.

No difference than Satan, was speaking thru the Serpent to Eve back at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Back in Genesis Chapter 3.

Of course the serpent snake could not actually speak, it was Satan speaking thru the serpent snake to Eve. Back in Genesis Chapter 3.

The same with Peter was letting Satan speak thru him, Therefore Jesus was not referring to Peter, But to Satan to get behind him.

Phantasman · Dec 22, 2017

Faithofchristian said:
You are way to funny, Peter Satan, that is to funny.
Christ Jesus was not calling Peter,Satan, Jesus was referring to Satan, speaking thru Peter.

No difference than Satan, was speaking thru the Serpent to Eve back at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Back in Genesis Chapter 3.

Of course the serpent snake could not actually speak, it was Satan speaking thru the serpent snake to Eve. Back in Genesis Chapter 3.

The same with Peter was letting Satan speak thru him, Therefore Jesus was not referring to Peter, But to Satan to get behind him.

Satan didn't speak to Eve. Jesus did. It was part of the "plan" to save man. He was lied to from the beginning. John 8.

I never said Peter was Satan. Satan is an idea, not a thing. Peter struggled with "idea's", even trying to tell Jesus he would follow him anywhere, and Jesus told him he would deny him when the time came. He had to correct Peters mistake due to his ignorance, by healing the mans ear.

If these weren't important to note, the authors wouldn't have included them. Even Paul called out Peter for not following the truth of the gospel Galatians 2:14

It's all there. You just want to accept the church of Peter (catholic) ideology.

You probably believe that Satan was in the Father's heaven. Says a lot about heaven and even Gods perception as well. I see a God much higher than the deceiver of the Jews.

Phantasman · Dec 22, 2017

Faithofchristian said:
That's to funny, You really need to get away from man's teachings, The son of perdition is Satan, Satan is the only one who has already been Judge and condemned to be destroyed by God. At the second coming of Christ Jesus.

Yet he appears as an angel of light. Why wait for men to be condemned before "destroying" Satan? If God loves the world, why hasn't Jesus been and gone, rather than waiting? Does God the Father kill babies? Did he ever kill any man? Why would he slaughter men (OT) and not Satan?

No, I understand the answers. You have none, because man has given you excuses, not truth. You go where they tell you like a good little slave.

Faithofchristian · Dec 22, 2017

Phantasman said:
Satan didn't speak to Eve. Jesus did. It was part of the "plan" to save man. He was lied to from the beginning. John 8.

As to how do you get it was Jesus speaking to Eve, When in fact it was the Serpent Satan that was speaking to from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Satan is known as the Serpent..

I never said Peter was Satan. Satan is an idea, not a thing. Peter struggled with "idea's", even trying to tell Jesus he would follow him anywhere, and Jesus told him he would deny him when the time came. He had to correct Peters mistake due to his ignorance, by healing the mans ear.

Satan's an idea, You got to be kidding.

If these weren't important to note, the authors wouldn't have included them. Even Paul called out Peter for not following the truth of the gospel Galatians 2:14

Had you any idea, What Paul was bringing to Peter, Do not do something and not follow it yourself.
Thats the reason, Why God has Paul and Peter there for, for our example.

It's all there. You just want to accept the church of Peter (catholic) ideology.

You probably believe that Satan was in the Father's heaven. Says a lot about heaven and even Gods perception as well. I see a God much higher than the deceiver of the Jews.

Are you freaking kidding me, God name Satan, but before this, Satan actually was
Lucifer. Then God changed Lucifer's name to Satan, the devil.

Lucifer was called the covering Cherub, that stood over the Mercy Seat before the Throne of God in heaven. Ezekiel 28:14-16

Maybe before you go saying things, maybe you should get to know exactly what God's word actually does say and support.

Faithofchristian · Dec 22, 2017

Phantasman said:
Yet he appears as an angel of light. Why wait for men to be condemned before "destroying" Satan? If God loves the world, why hasn't Jesus been and gone, rather than waiting? Does God the Father kill babies? Did he ever kill any man? Why would he slaughter men (OT) and not Satan?

No, I understand the answers. You have none, because man has given you excuses, not truth. You go where they tell you like a good little slave.

Since you think you know so much.
By all means, Since you already made your first mistake.Who do you think that I am?

Phantasman · Dec 22, 2017

Faithofchristian said:
Since you think you know so much.
By all means, Since you already made your first mistake.Who do you think that I am?

It has nothing to do with how much I know. It's what I believe with what little I know. I will seek until I die.

I'm going to guess that I know you from an alias.

Faithofchristian · Dec 22, 2017

Phantasman said:
It has nothing to do with how much I know. It's what I believe with what little I know. I will seek until I die.

I'm going to guess that I know you from an alias.

Your right that and it shows that you know little.
As for who I am, Well I'm not one of those other Christians that you catalyzed me to be. I don't belong to any church.

Those churches only follow what their Pastor's, Preachers, tells them. That's why they have no clue about the book of Revelation, or any of the other books of the bible will say and support.

Phantasman · Dec 22, 2017

Faithofchristian said:
Are you freaking kidding me, God name Satan, but before this, Satan actually was
Lucifer. Then God changed Lucifer's name to Satan, the devil.

Lucifer was called the covering Cherub, that stood over the Mercy Seat before the Throne of God in heaven. Ezekiel 28:14-16

Maybe before you go saying things, maybe you should get to know exactly what God's word actually does say and support.

You follow dead mens words.

"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." - - John 6:58

Jesus is truth. Not Ezekiel. He died.

Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were, nor are, nor shall be. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom.- Gospel of Philip

Phantasman · Dec 22, 2017

Faithofchristian said:
Your right that and it shows that you know little.
As for who I am, Well I'm not one of those other Christians that you catalyzed me to be. I don't belong to any church.

Those churches only follow what their Pastor's, Preachers, tells them. That's why they have no clue about the book of Revelation, or any of the other books of the bible will say and support.

Revelations is a book of slaughter, fear and death. Scholars cannot agree on who even wrote it. I don't follow it because out of all the early Christian texts, it stands alone (except maybe the Apocalypse of Peter). It's a recruiting tool for Priests.

Revelations is a continuation of OT thought. It only works on the spiritually ignorant.

Did the true church ever vanish or completely fall away?

The the CHristian church ever Fall away completely

No the catholic church has always been the one true church

Yes it fell away until the reformation

No there has always been a Godly remnant

Yes until my religion/denominations founder restored it.

Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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