How could an omniscient , omnipotent god of love create sin ?

Skwim said:

Nice choice when it's a foregone conclusion that every one of us will choose the apple, and god knows this. Think there's ever been a person on earth, aside from your Jesus, who hasn't sinned? Of course not. God simply watches us all commit sin after sin. Some with the benefit of having been given a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card (Salvation through the acceptance of Christ as one's savior) and others receiving no such benefit at all. In short, Tough cookies, sinner!


But not everyone who does things believes they're wrong; so wrong that they would get one sent to an eternal hell. Take the sin of lusting. I can easily see people who have never heard of the consequences god has in store for them, regarding lust as wrong. As part of our sexual nature they could very well consider it an attribute that serves to enhance their sexual satisfaction. But god doesn't give a fig if they don't know what's in store for them. Lusting? Off to hell with you.

.

Click to expand...

First its not a foregone conclusion that every choice will oppose God's will, Second there are many religions you claim to be agnostic but are fixated on christian sins. All religions and holy books are human interpretations of God full of errors, read about a few more before deciding what are sins. Hell is also not a part of all religions perhaps you just keep getting reborn.

Skwim said:

But is it really any choice when one is driven to, has no choice but to, poop in one's diaper? No it isn't.

Even, as in my example with lust, they did feel it was wrong they have no reason to believe such a wrong will land them in an eternal hell. Huge difference here of being forewarned of the consequences and what one can do to avoid them, and blithely committing what one perceives to be a minor wrong.


Bull hockey! God programmed all of humanity to sin.

Romans 3:23(ESV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

.​

Click to expand...

Our disconnect is that I don't see the Christian bible or christian God as being true. It is just another human version of God's rules. You may need to widen your religious knowledge.

i've got questions said:

I am basing this question to christianity's god , but i guess the omnipotent ,omniscient love god matches with other religions too so thats why i am posting that in this section .
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers

Click to expand...

The demons were originally angels. They rebelled and were restrained -doing only as God allows. That state of restraint is called Tartaros -which is sometimes translated as hell. They are restrained until the judgment.

Other words translated hell are Hades and Sheol -which generally refer to the sleep-like state of death/the grave. Men who have died are in the grave -their spirits with God -though unaware until resurrected.
The dead in Christ will be resurrected at his return -the rest a thousand years later to the judgment -which is not all bad.

The closest to the popular idea of "hell" is Gehenna -the "lake of fire" -of which it is written that some will be "saved, yet so as by fire". It is written that God is ABLE "to destroy both body and spirit in Gehenna" -but that is not to say he necessarily will do so. Some will have their PART in the lake of fire -but it is part of how God is as a refiner's fire.

We are allowed to sin because it is necessary that we are involved in the process of learning not to sin. It is important that we are able to say that we chose the right path -and programming is not to sin would mean we could not be truly independent in will or creativity.

Sin is essentially not doing things correctly based on a perfect system -and it takes time and experience to learn and to become convinced to do the right thing.
We are not programmed or forced to do things correctly, but God does bring us to the correct choice faster than we would otherwise -so as to actually minimize the time we experience the misery of sin and the negative effects of our actions.

Most individuals have been limited to 120 years -mankind to about 6,000 years since Adam -after which he will finish perfecting us and make us immortal children of God with powerful bodies able to create throughout the universe. It is actually very efficient.

i've got questions said:

I am basing this question to christianity's god , but i guess the omnipotent ,omniscient love god matches with other religions too so thats why i am posting that in this section .
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers

Click to expand...

In short: Free will

'good' cannot exist unless it is freely chosen over the alternative

i've got questions said:

I am basing this question to christianity's god , but i guess the omnipotent ,omniscient love god matches with other religions too so thats why i am posting that in this section .
So , we are taught that god created hell for the demons and paradise for men , and that he is really sad when even one person gets to enter to hell . Although , one could expect that a caring god like this that had the power to do everything (including avoiding the creation of sin ) and that he knew in advance that man could fall into sin if it was created , wouldnt bring it to existance . What's religion thesis on that ? I would be happy to read your answers

Click to expand...

Jesus knew He would die to save people from Hell, so that works out fine.

bobhikes said:

First its not a foregone conclusion that every choice will oppose God's will,

Click to expand...

And I didn't say it was, did I. Stop concocting strawmen.

Second there are many religions you claim to be agnostic but are fixated on christian sins.

Click to expand...

Please, name them. I await.

All religions and holy books are human interpretations of God full of errors, read about a few more before deciding what are sins. Hell is also not a part of all religions

Click to expand...

And I never said it was, but those who do buy into the Christian hell believe it applies to everyone regardless of what they believe or don't believe. .

.

Skwim said:

And I didn't say it was, did I. Stop concocting strawmen.


Please, name them. I await.


And I never said it was, but those who do buy into the Christian hell believe it applies to everyone regardless of what they believe or don't believe. .

.

Click to expand...

Name religions or sins?

So some Christians believe hell applies to everyone. Are you saying they are right?

bobhikes said:

Name religions or sins?

Click to expand...

The many religions I supposedly claim to be agnostic but are fixated on christian sins.

So some Christians believe hell applies to everyone. Are you saying they are right?

Click to expand...

Not a matter of being right or not, It's simply what they believe.

.

Skwim said:

The many religions I supposedly claim to be agnostic but are fixated on christian sins.


Not a matter of being right or not, It's simply what they believe.

.

Click to expand...

Apparently there is a misunderstanding, I thought you were someone else I was debating whose profile indicated they were agnostic. I found it weird that they(you) would want to debate the same thing again. I was claiming you were agnostic (but your profile does not indicate such). That claim is wrong. The many religions was all religions that exist outside of Christianity.

Skwim said:

Not a matter of being right or not, It's simply what they believe.

Click to expand...

I can't control what people believe and just because they believe it doesn't mean God does it. As I said before there is much misunderstanding between scriptures and God's true meaning. In fact you can only understand somewhat by studying multiple religions.

bobhikes said:

I was claiming you were agnostic (but your profile does not indicate such). That claim is wrong.

Click to expand...

But my avatar clearly states I'm an agnostic. Take a look.

Brickjectivity said:

One is called '....for cleansing.

Click to expand...

I thought you meant different explanations about why did god create sin , and not interpretations of hell . Although what you wrote is really interesting too . Really much thank you .

URAVIP2ME said:

First of all, I can't find any Bible verse saying hell for the demons.
( Remember: the world teaches about a non-biblical hell as being Scriptural hell and it is Not )
I do find that the day Jesus died that dead Jesus went to biblical hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
The reason dead Jesus entered biblical hell is because the Bible's hell is simply the stone-cold grave.
The temporary grave for the sleeping dead until Resurrection Day.
If biblical hell was permanent then Jesus would still be in hell.
Jesus taught ' sleep ' in death at John 11:11-14 which is in harmony with the old Hebrew Scriptures found at Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead know nothing. So, No pain in death, just sleep.

God chooses Not to know all things because God gifted all of us with free-will choices.
So, there are things that God chooses Not to know, otherwise there would be No need to ask us to ' repent ' if we do Not wish to ' perish ' (be destroyed) as per 2 Peter 3:9.

Since Jesus will destroy Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B then Satan ends up in destruction and Not the grave.
Satan ends up in that symbolic ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8.

During Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins then we will once again see paradisical conditions on Earth as described at Revelation 22:2 when there will be 'healing for Earth's nations'.
Mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of earth's nations, and Earth will become a beautiful paradise as described in chapter 35 of Isaiah.

Click to expand...

Still , people will get judged based on their life and end up to hell or heaven , depending on it. And besides , the fact that death is a sleep state until the second coming of christ doesnt mean it will remain like this after it .

URAVIP2ME said:

That is why the good news of Matthew 24:14 about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is Now being proclaimed on an international basis so that people everywhere on Earth will have the opportunity to know what they are doing.
We all will choose as to who we would like as Sovereign over us.

Click to expand...

Still , an omnipotent god could , and would be more rational to do something with a higher effect to transmit his message to the world . Human means will never reassure every single human on earth has learned about it , and a God with such love for his creatures should have cared for every single soul coming into contact with his words , before judjing them . Practical example are tribes of the amazon , which might be a minority but living away from civilisation might have never heared of jesus .

Sanzbir said:

So I'm not sure if you are looking for my answer, since you're mostly basing this on Christianity's view of God, but my faith has an "omnipotent, omniscient love god", as you put it. So feel free to disregard if my Faith isn't the type of answer you were looking for.


Sin is thus the same as Hell in the Baha'i view, both are distance from God. Why is sin permitted?? Probably out of a sense of freedom. If one wants to choose distance from God one should be free to do so.

Click to expand...

That's really interesting . Thank you for sharing your believes, I have answered about the freedom part . I still , cant see how freedom could be violated if this choise didnt exist at first hand . Freedom is violated when access to something existing is prohibited .

Mindmaster said:

So, you're gonna be back here until you do. Sin is a man-made invention, mostly used to persecute anyone whom will not tow the line of some religious dogma.

Conventional religions basically focus on sinning against the church, rather than sinning against The One. (which is basically impossible) In essence, their spiritual teaching is corrupted and worthless.

Click to expand...

Yeah for the rerason i am mentioning now , i tend to agree with you since i cant find sense in the way it is presented by religions . And of course i can see , the benefits of evil in the maturity of people but 1) the first perfect world christian god creatd for humans was sin-free and still it was perfectly functional , 2) some people (e.g. children in africa who day from starvation before the could even shwo a sinful character because of western world's sins ) dont get any benefit at all from that in any form of lesson 3) it would be more rational if we weren't to be punished after falling into eveil so ... Thank you relly much for helping !

Grandliseur said:

I don't know who taught you those things; such teachings have no foundation in the Bible.

Hell
There is no torment of hell after death; people return to non existence when they die.

It cannot be stated that God knew Adam and Eve would sin. He knew that some of their children would since the probability would certainly be 100%.
Sin
Free guarantees that some shall use it for nefarious purposes, thus having not created robots, it was assured that some would, by no means all. However, after Adam's sin where all became imperfect, all sin whether they like it or not. In this, we have a difference, some sin by purpose, and others because they cannot help it.

Click to expand...

Maybe there are some differents with orthodox belief , or maybe the fact that we value tradition in orthodox is responsible for the think i said , you cant find foundation in bible. Why , can't it be stated when god is supposed to be omniscient and know everything in advance ? And what i said abotu freedom before goes to your answer too . Also , where do you base your claim that there is no torment of heel afterlife but just inexistance ?

i've got questions said:

That's really interesting . Thank you for sharing your believes, I have answered about the freedom part . I still , cant see how freedom could be violated if this choise didnt exist at first hand . Freedom is violated when access to something existing is prohibited .

Click to expand...

So I ask:

Would you prefer this choice to not exist?? You would wish to have forced nearness to God??

Don't you think it'd be better for everyone if people had the option to opt out of hangin' out with God??

Because I for one would like to hang out with God. But I know from experience there are people, ya know, the "anti-theists", who state that even if he exists they wouldn't want to associate with him.

And again, in my faith, "heaven" is simply "nearness to God", so wouldn't forcing such people to "hang out with God" be more of a "hell" for them subjectively then allowing them to go their own way if they really want to?? Like to a rabid anti-theist, wouldn't a reality in which they are forced to constantly hang out with someone they despise be the absolute worst reality for that person??

i've got questions said:

I thought you meant different explanations about why did god create sin , and not interpretations of hell . Although what you wrote is really interesting too . Really much thank you .
Still , people will get judged based on their life and end up to hell or heaven , depending on it. And besides , the fact that death is a sleep state until the second coming of christ doesnt mean it will remain like this after it .
Still , an omnipotent god could , and would be more rational to do something with a higher effect to transmit his message to the world . Human means will never reassure every single human on earth has learned about it , ......
Maybe there are some differents with orthodox belief , or maybe the fact that we value tradition in orthodox is responsible for the think i said , you cant find foundation in bible. Why , can't it be stated when god is supposed to be omniscient and know everything in advance ? And what i said abotu freedom before goes to your answer too . Also , where do you base your claim that there is no torment of hell afterlife but just inexistance ?

Click to expand...

I can't find where in Scripture that people end up to hell or heaven because according to Revelation 20:13-14 the Bible's hell ends up in a symbolic ' second death '. Biblical hell dies that ' second death ', so to speak.
Please notice that after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( meaning resurrected out of biblical hell ), then it is emptied-out hell that is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
While in hell (biblical grave) the dead know nothing as per Psalms 115:!7; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14, know nothing but sleep, just as we are Not aware of the passing of time while asleep.
Jesus has the keys to unlock death and the grave ( biblical hell ) for us as per Revelation 1:18.
After the second coming, anyone choosing to be wicked will be destroyed forever as those of Psalms 92:7.
They will Not be in some empty hell, or some myth hell, but gone forever as in annihilated (destroyed forever).

Fathers often write to their children, so why wouldn't our Heavenly Father transmit His message to us via words.
With the written word (Psalms 119:105) there is No changing of the message as Jesus taught it to us.
God chooses Not to know everything in advance, otherwise there would be No need to ask us to ' repent' if we do Not wish to ' perish ' ( be destroyed ) as per 2 Peter 3:9.

Skwim said:

As if everyone on earth will hear it. And those that did are going to pay more attention to it than you're going to take to heart the teachings of their religion.
.

Click to expand...

I find because Matthew 24:14 is Now proclaimed on such a vast international scale as never before in history to earth's nations, that notice message does Not say everyone on Earth because new people are born each day.
Jesus, as shepherd, will judge who are humble sheep-like peoplr according to Matthew 25:31-33,37.
Jesus assures us that 'his sheep will hear his voice' according to John 10:3; John 10:14; John 10:27.
In other words, anyone innocent will Not be in harm's way. Jesus will take care of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth starting with Calendar Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth begins.

i've got questions said:

Christianity's scriptures mention that at first humans were granted a life free from any evil ,close to him . Also it is pretty clear that god was not pleased at all with humans knowing evil , when they disobeyed to his command . So how could this,then , be his desire ?

Click to expand...

Adam (pre-fall) is comparable with Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Enkidu is so closely bound to nature that he does not even know he is a man, like Adam. The Harlot is sent from the city to tempt Enkidu and after he has lain with her, the animals reject him - as the scent of humans is upon him. He cannot return, just like Adam.

The truth is everyone makes this step as our consciousness develops. We develop self-awareness and a feeling of shame (like Adam). Ever noticed how tiny tots are more than happy to run around naked? In order to return to Eden we need to leave it, it was always part of the plan. Genesis, if understood correctly, is a road map back in.

Shiranui117 said:

God gave us true freedom to choose life or death, good or evil, union with Him or separation from Him. If you have a child, you know full-well that they have the chance to do good or bad. If you teach them what is good and then they choose to do it over harmful or bad things that they are exposed to in the world around them, then that child has grown to become wise and mature. If you force a child to do what you want them to do, their moral and personal growth will be stunted and they will live in terror. God wants us to grow up and be wise and mature, as a good Father does for His children. The Bible says in Wisdom of Sirach, chapter 15:
14 It was he who created humankind in the beginning,
and he left them in the power of their own free choice.
15 If you choose, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16 He has placed before you fire and water;
stretch out your hand for whichever you choose.
17 Before each person are life and death,
and whichever one chooses will be given.
18 For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19 his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every human action.
20 He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,
and he has not given anyone permission to sin.

Click to expand...

When it comes to the book of Sirach, I find it is Not in harmony with the Bible's '66' harmonious books.
For example: At Sirach 25:23 he blames woman when Scripture clearly states it was Adam at Romans 5:12,19.
Perhaps that is why Sirach is classed as one of the apocryphal books instead of inspired Scripture.

Srivijaya said:

...................... In order to return to Eden we need to leave it, it was always part of the plan. Genesis, if understood correctly, is a road map back in.

Click to expand...

I like how you say Genesis is a road map back in.
I find it was God's purpose in connection to the first prophecy recorded at Genesis 3:15 because Jesus as Messiah proves to be that promised ' seed ' or offspring which we need in order to get back in.
That return to Eden is described at Revelation 22:2 when, under Christ, we see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for mankind. The trees of life provides food and healing for earth's nations. This, I find Jesus fulfills God's promise to father Abraham at Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing for earth's nations as described at the 35th chapter of Isaiah, when No one will say, " I am sick..." - Isaiah 33:24.
Even ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8.

whirlingmerc said:

The problem of evil is a mystery but God created everything good but changeable

Click to expand...

In Scripture, 'Bible speak', so to speak, evil is Not always synonymous with wrongdoing, rather when called for God used calamity as an evil against wrongdoers such as against the violent people of Noah's day - Genesis 6:11.

bobhikes said:

So some Christians believe hell applies to everyone. Are you saying they are right?

Click to expand...

I am saying that Jesus taught biblical hell applies to most everyone because the Bible's hell is the temporary grave.
According to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died until his God resurrected Jesus.
If biblical hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in hell.
The grave ( biblical hell ) does Not apply to those committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrew 6:4-6.
They are considered to be so wicked that they are classed as the wicked as being 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 92:7.
Furthermore, the Bible's temporary hell ( stone-cold grave ) comes to a final end according to Revelation 20:13-14.
Please notice that after everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ), then emptied-out hell is then cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell. Thus, Jesus according to Revelation 1:18 will bring an end to death and the grave for us when Jesus beings his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth.

i've got questions said:

when god is supposed to be omniscient and know everything in advance ?

Click to expand...

Sorry, that is just not correct. God does not know all things future. If he did, we could have no free will, and the universe we live in would not make sense.
If what I do is because God has foreordained it, then there can be no judgment of it since it is by the will of God.