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Do we really know who God is?

Moon195

Member
A couple of questions for clarification's sake:
  • Which god? By "God" to you specifically intend to refer to the one-god of the Abrahamic religions, or do you mean divine beings more generally?
  • What would you consider to be a measure of success? Are we talking awareness of that particular god-concept? Acceptance of it? Regular worship of it? Something else?

The God I based the discussion on, is the true and unique Creator of the whole universe.
The one which existed and exists and will exist. The one which existed when no other creature existed.
Since the beginning of human life on earth, there has always been some traces of religion being practiced by profits and their advocates, but since the understanding and perception of mankind developed at a very slow pace, those true profits and messengers who were in charge of introducing God, had to speak at the level of understanding of the people of their era which of course caused a lot of misunderstanding or insufficient knowledge of the Creator. all the knowledge that has been passed down to us throughout the ages have definitely passed through a lot of filters, one of which was explained, therefore it has caused so much misunderstanding which lead to different notions of God.
 

Moon195

Member
No. I think its more "what" god is, though. Some religions say all is god. Some say any thing and one as an object or person of worship. Others dont know what god is (something beyond; an essense; humans we cant talk to; spirits only X amount of people describe differently; is god a warror? A lover? Or abstract: love? Hate? Higher power. A force. And so forth.)

What is a god, Id ask first than Id ask who that god is based on what it is. For example, if god is a chair, I wouldnt ask if it displays love.

No one can say "what" God is. How can we say what God is when no one has ever seen it !!!, but we can talk or discuss "who" God is by thinking on his creation. For example we realize that God must be by billions of miles, more knowledgeable than what we imagine. studying the universe and galaxies will result in realizing how powerful God is! we are seeking this type of knowledge about God , not "what" God is!
 

Moon195

Member
How could religions introduce something they don't even have knowledge of? All they care about is keeping or spreading what they think god is and trying to get people to accept their ideas. If religions disappear, their "gods" disappear with them, that's not really God.

what we have acquired so far about God has been through religion. at least the concept of God came from religion.although modern science has helped a lot widening our spectrum, but we cannot ignore the idea which has longed for thousands of years. The only problem with religion is that the profits had no choice but to hide some facts from people, just because they were not at that level of perception and understanding. people used to kill and burn messengers. the situation was really tense and there was little space open for them to guide people. this filtering which has always existed didn't let humans get what they really needed.
 

Moon195

Member
If you were around during the time of Jesus or Mohammed and either walked up to you and started telling you about God, would you believe them?

Now you are taught they were prophets and many believe them, so maybe you feel you should as well. However say you didn't know anything about them and they started talking about God. Or some random person walks up to you and claims to be a messenger from God. What reason would you have to believe what they say about God is true?


If you were around during the time of Jesus or Mohammed and either walked up to you and started telling you about God, would you believe them?

Now you are taught they were prophets and many believe them, so maybe you feel you should as well. However say you didn't know anything about them and they started talking about God. Or some random person walks up to you and claims to be a messenger from God. What reason would you have to believe what they say about God is true?
We formerly sent our apostles with evident miracles and arguments; and We sent down with them the scriptures, and the balance, that men might observe justice: And We sent them down iron, wherein is mighty strength for war, and various advantages unto mankind: That God may know who assisted him and his apostles in secret; for God is strong and mighty. ( Iron - 25)
 

Moon195

Member
I'd say so. A good percentage of the world's population (84% are said to have a religious faith, most of which acknowledge a god or two) believes there's a god. Now, "who" he is certainly differs among the 84%, but I'm quite sure that regardless of what kind of configuration he takes each is well regarded by its believers, which I would take as being a successful introduction.

.
Don't you think when one is stuck to his wrong imagination of god and believes this image as the true God, then it would be so difficult to let go and accept the real God???
 

Moon195

Member
Hardly...... men and women have created thousands of gods, over thousands of years. Every person has his/her own unique concept of a god or goddess, created my their own minds, as is obvious from reading the posts in this forum. Give it some thought...... we are brainwashed, that is, educated, by parents and preachers, who know little or nothing about religion and gods. If only one, just one, god could 'show up', then perhaps we might have some knowledge regarding gods and goddesses.l

There is only one God! and that God will not show up in this world for sure. humans are not developed to that extreme level to be able to see God. there must occur a great change in our entity to be able to see its great glory and light.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
We formerly sent our apostles with evident miracles and arguments; and We sent down with them the scriptures, and the balance, that men might observe justice: And We sent them down iron, wherein is mighty strength for war, and various advantages unto mankind: That God may know who assisted him and his apostles in secret; for God is strong and mighty. ( Iron - 25)

None of this was written at the time. So you'd have to had made your decision prior this being written.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Have religions been successful in introducing who God is?
My opinion religion can be excellent at the obliviate spell. Which then renders the text unreadable. I actually have a degree in it!!!!
download (6).jpeg
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Don't you think when one is stuck to his wrong imagination of god and believes this image as the true God, then it would be so difficult to let go and accept the real God???
But who decides this is a "wrong imagination of god," you?

.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Totality" is a word you put in quotes so I assume based on context it is some alternate meaning not typically described by that word, care to elaborate??
I put it in quotes to suggest what you just stated here:

Actually if you divide the infinite it is still infinite, due to the odd properties of infinity.
Which is what I agree with. Good we are on the same page here.

I see you seem to define "infinite" as meaning "everything" rather than what "infinite" actually means, that being "without end" or "limitless".
I struggle to describe it, and no, I don't see that as Pantheism, which would be what I said I do not see the Infinite to mean the sum total of everything. What I mean, is that in a single molecule, Infinity exists. It is the same infinity within one thing, and within everything.

"Infinite" is not inherently pantheistic, unless you, as you have done, redefine the word.
I do agree.

I don't understand exactly the mentality here. Even under the assumption that everything is just part of a god. Can you elaborate??
Now taking our mutual understanding of the Infinite, or infinity, that if Infinity is infinite within a single atom, or any element of Creation, that would include my mind. Yes, "my" mind is distinct, one of a kind, but that same Infinite that is in everything, infinitely, is also there as it is in everything.

This is the nature of nonduality. The formless and form are paradoxically one and many. That we are distinct is a given. That we are One, is also true.

My toe is part of my body, as is my eye. That doesn't necessarily mean that my toe isn't separate from my eye.

Just because a thing is a part of a bigger whole doesn't mean it isn't separate from the other parts.
The infinite is not bound to the rules of duality. To imagine God outside Creation, means God is not Infinite. My form is finite. God within me is not.

Again, care to elaborate, since I am really not understanding how this logic works. The fullness being of my chair is not within one of its wheels. So why would it be true on a bigger scale??
Don't view God as having parts. Let me be explicit here. We are not separate from God. We are not part of God. We are God. And, I am me, little small me who lives and will one day be no more. "I live, yet not I, but Christ", again says Paul.

And don't worry, I most certainly do not consider Paul infallible! :)

I'd say that is false and that it is impossible to progress past the Lote Tree, though I acknowledge you likely don't have a belief in that particular Tree. ;)
I wasn't familiar with it until just now. :) Here's what I have to say to what little I just read on Wiki. "The tree that marks the end of the seventh heaven, the boundary where no creation can pass."

Very well, no creation can pass. Fine. But the Infinite that is not separate from me (if it were, it's not infinite), can pass. Consciousness itself, is not creation. It IS, and all that is being created is being created from this Source, which is God.

When we move with in this Consciousness beyond duality (creation), we are no longer this finite mind that sees itself as separate from everything else, including it's ideas of God. We are in a nondual state of awareness, which is beyond the dualistic mind, that 'separate' creation. It is in this state of being itself, that we do in fact "know, even as I am known", as the Apostle Paul accurately describes that state (which he tells his reader is some future reward for them).

"Totality" is a word you put in quotes so I assume based on context it is some alternate meaning not typically described by that word, care to elaborate??
I put it in quotes to suggest what you just stated here:

Actually if you divide the infinite it is still infinite, due to the odd properties of infinity.
Which is what I agree with. Good we are on the same page here.

I see you seem to define "infinite" as meaning "everything" rather than what "infinite" actually means, that being "without end" or "limitless".
I struggle to describe it, and no, I don't see that as Pantheism, which would be what I said I do not see the Infinite to mean the sum total of everything. What I mean, is that in a single molecule, Infinity exists. It is the same infinity within one thing, and within everything.

"Infinite" is not inherently pantheistic, unless you, as you have done, redefine the word.
I do agree.

I don't understand exactly the mentality here. Even under the assumption that everything is just part of a god. Can you elaborate??
Now taking our mutual understanding of the Infinite, or infinity, that if Infinity is infinite within a single atom, or any element of Creation, that would include my mind. Yes, "my" mind is distinct, one of a kind, but that same Infinite that is in everything, infinitely, is also there as it is in everything.

This is the nature of nonduality. The formless and form are paradoxically one and many. That we are distinct is a given. That we are One, is also true.

My toe is part of my body, as is my eye. That doesn't necessarily mean that my toe isn't separate from my eye.

Just because a thing is a part of a bigger whole doesn't mean it isn't separate from the other parts.
The infinite is not bound to the rules of duality. To imagine God outside Creation, means God is not Infinite. My form is finite. God "within" me is not. (I put within in quotes for a reason too).

Again, care to elaborate, since I am really not understanding how this logic works. The fullness being of my chair is not within one of its wheels. So why would it be true on a bigger scale??
Don't view God as having parts. Let me be explicit here. We are not separate from God. We are not part of God. We are God. And, I am me, little small me who lives and will one day be no more. "I live, yet not I, but Christ".

And don't worry, I most certainly do not consider Paul infallible! :)

Likewise my views don't contain a belief in the Infallibility of Paul, so I am no more likely to be swayed by his words than you would be from a Scriptural verse detailing the Lote Tree Beyond Which There Is No Passing.
My thoughts about Paul. Like the old poem goes, "When [he] was good, he was very, very good. When he was bad, he was horrid!". Paul was a human being. He was like you or me on his spiritual journey. Later believers mythologized him (just as people do all prophets) as being the mouthpiece of God. I don't believe that of him, anyone anyone claims to be a prophet. The words may be inspired, at times, but never infallible. No human, prophet or otherwise is infallible.

But why I gladly quote him, is because those are words I could have written from my own personal experience. They very accurately describe this state of nondual awareness. I have experienced this firsthand, and am merely finding the words of a familiar quote and putting them there to express what I am talking about.

Now, as far as your analysis of the context for that quote having to specifically do with prophecies, I disagree. Even if he is talking to people's beliefs about prophecies here in the context of the whole, he concludes that even these at their best are only understood from a limited human perspective. But, once you move beyond that, then you will understand the Reality to which these things are but mere fingers pointing to the moon. This is, everything I have been saying.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
you are right. may be i would have been deceived by a fake one :)

See, here's my problem. I followed someone who claimed to be the "Perfect Master". Basically claiming to be the current incarnation of God's messenger.

He made all these claims to be the one to bring us to God. Lots of miracles were claimed by everyday folks. He implied his legacy was back to Christ.

He had over 1 million followers in 55 different countries. Many more followers than that of Christ in the 1st century.

It seemed reasonable at the time to accept I was led by divine forces to become a follower of this person. This second coming of Christ. His "authority" was justified through passages from the Bible.

So here was this person who had the knowledge I lacked. Since I had no knowledge of God, I was without a position to argue against the claims he made about God.

So unless you know God yourself, you have to blindly accept the authority of one who claims to speak for God.

Jesus and Mohammed are figures from the past. Folks I don't really know. While I met my messenger from God in the flesh and could touch them.

Folks who decided to follow Jesus or Mohammed, did they have the knowledge to critically know if these two spoke the truth about God?

Folks, for their own reasoning decided to blindly accept the authority of someone.

At the time I felt I had as much reason to accept my messenger of God as did the followers of any.

So religions get started from the ignorance of it's followers. Lacking any knowledge of God themselves and having to choose in that ignorance who is to led them to knowledge of God.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There is only one God! and that God will not show up in this world for sure. humans are not developed to that extreme level to be able to see God. there must occur a great change in our entity to be able to see its great glory and light.
What is the great change in entity your referring to?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
No one can say "what" God is. How can we say what God is when no one has ever seen it !!!, but we can talk or discuss "who" God is by thinking on his creation. For example we realize that God must be by billions of miles, more knowledgeable than what we imagine. studying the universe and galaxies will result in realizing how powerful God is! we are seeking this type of knowledge about God , not "what" God is!

The God of the Bible is powerful according to Isaiah 40:26 having 'greatness of might' and being 'strong in power'.
God thus supplied the needed dynamic energy (His power and strength) to create the visible world - Psalms 104:30.

I find according to John 5:19 Jesus saw his God.
Jesus taught at John 4:23-24 that his God is: a spirit person.
The resurrected-to-heaven Jesus came to be in the presence of his God according to Hebrews 9:24.
Jesus taught us to pray to his God, to his Heavenly Father, at Matthew 6:9-10; Luke 11:2-4 to hallow or to make holy his Father's name as he said he would do at John 17:6; John 17:26.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Have religions been successful in introducing who God is?

Good question and on the whole yes. Time has seen man change God to suit mans agenda though.

Baha'u'llah has now made it clear there is only One God with many Messengers.

Thus God has shown us diversity in His Names and shown us names are not a barrier to our oneness.

Regards Tony
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Interesting thread.....

The God I based the discussion on, is the true and unique Creator of the whole universe.
The one which existed and exists and will exist. The one which existed when no other creature existed.

In all the world's religions, there are gods and goddesses of infinite variety, but in Abrahamic faiths, there is only one true God and many false ones. Depending on which of the Abrahamic faiths one subscribes to (whether by birth or by choice) we have to know who it is we are worshipping. How can we "know" him, rather than just know "about" him?

So when we speak to God in prayer, do we have a mental image of who it is that we are addressing and what realistically we can expect as an answer from him? Could there be reasons why so many prayers go unanswered?

Since the beginning of human life on earth, there has always been some traces of religion being practiced by profits and their advocates, but since the understanding and perception of mankind developed at a very slow pace, those true profits and messengers who were in charge of introducing God, had to speak at the level of understanding of the people of their era which of course caused a lot of misunderstanding or insufficient knowledge of the Creator. all the knowledge that has been passed down to us throughout the ages have definitely passed through a lot of filters, one of which was explained, therefore it has caused so much misunderstanding which lead to different notions of God.

Actually there was no 'religion' in Eden at all. There was worship, but no structured religion as such. The first 5 chapters of Genesis up until the flood, show us that humans were pretty much left to the leadership of their own patriarchs and the vast majority did not want to worship the true God. Only a handful of men are spoken of as 'walking with God' in that time period.

In Ch 5 we see the history of the patriarchal families from Adam down to Noah. At the time of Noah, something happened that has no biblical precedent.....spirit beings (former angels who became rebellious followers of satan) now known as demons, materialized and cohabited with human women, producing a gigantic race of violent bullies. (the Nephilim were literally 'fellers' of men) Noah and his family were the only ones out of all humanity who found favor in the eyes of God at that time, so obviously there was no formal worship of God happening. It appears from Jesus words in Matthew 24:37-39 that the people were wrapped up in their own pursuits and didn't think much about God at all. They ignored Noah because everyone else did. (something we see happening again in these last days when Christ is to return)

A flood story in one similar form or another is found in just about every culture on earth, so the probability of it being a real occurrence rather than a mythological legend is very strong. That gives added weight to Jesus words about the end times. They were a warning for us. (2 Peter 3:4-6) History repeats...and we all know why.

we can talk or discuss "who" God is by thinking on his creation. For example we realize that God must be by billions of miles, more knowledgeable than what we imagine. studying the universe and galaxies will result in realizing how powerful God is! we are seeking this type of knowledge about God , not "what" God is!

An infinite being is incomprehensible to a finite mind. Still, the Creator reveals himself and his personality in many ways. Nature tells us so much about his sense of morality, his loving provisions for all his creatures and the generosity with which it is given. He even demonstrates that he has a wonderful sense of humor.

The person of Jesus Christ also speaks volumes about the Father he came to represent. Jesus was a kind and loving instructor who exercised patience and an intimate understanding of human frailty, not expecting more than imperfect humans can give. Yet, he demonstrated that when God's reasonable expectations are not met (through pride, disobedience or wickedness) there can be no forgiveness without genuine repentance. He is a God of second chances, but not of infinite chances. His patience has limits.

Perhaps we will never know "what" God is, but we can certainly know "who" he is just from reading about his dealings with mankind in the Bible.

what we have acquired so far about God has been through religion. at least the concept of God came from religion.

"Religion" is something that surfaced after the flood. Nimrod (Noah's great grandson) was the first man to rebel after that event. It was Nimrod who was deified after his death by his mother Semiramis and placed among the 'gods'....so a falling away from the worship of the true God was already a fact. This is where all false worship originated in Nimrod's city....Babylon. When God confused the language at the tower of Babel, (Genesis 11:1-9) the people dispersed and took their false religious ideas with them to the four corners of the earth. This is why there is a common thread running through all of them. God did not create "religion"...humans did under influence from God's adversary. All worship that is false goes to the devil by default. He doesn't care what form that worship takes, as long as it is rejected by the true God....then he can take it all for himself. Most humans don't know the difference.

Don't you think when one is stuck to his wrong imagination of god and believes this image as the true God, then it would be so difficult to let go and accept the real God???

Indeed. When one is raised with certain ideas about God(s) and worship, it is hard to put those pre-conceived ideas away. God's spirit can overturn those ideas however.

2 Corinthians 10:4-5...."For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ."

This is the power of God's spirit.....but his word only appeals to an obedient heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

One thing is for sure....the God who created all things will make certain that not a single "sheep" is missing from the pen when the final judgment comes. Jesus is the "Fine Shepherd" who will make sure of it. He will not rest until the last one is gathered.

Romans 10:13-15...."....for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!"


This is why we have a commission to preach so that people can hear the message and respond. That commission was not optional....it was a command.....and people's lives depended on it. (Matthew 28:19-20)

This is how I see things.
 
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