Creator's plan to create a world based on cruelty

Moon195 · Dec 18, 2017

based on the Qur'an, before the creation of Adam, there was something like a discussion between God and the angels regarding this very unique creation:
{And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place vicegerent on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we keep admitting and praising your purity and holiness.
" He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."} [2: 30].

which implies that the angles knew the consequences of this creation. This, along with the fact that humans have always experienced mischief and bloodshed throughout history of mankind, arises many questions such as:
Isn't God is responsible for all the crime that humans have committed on earth?

Kemosloby · Dec 18, 2017

That's backwards when you have the "Angels" sanctifying God rather than God sanctifying the Angels. Who's the boss in that picture anyway??

I'm thinking Muhammed was no prophet at all.

Brickjectivity · Dec 18, 2017

Moon195 said:
based on the Qur'an, before the creation of Adam, there was something like a discussion between God and the angels regarding this very unique creation:
{And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."} [2: 30].

which implies that the angles knew the consequences of this creation. this, along with the fact that humans have experienced throughout history of mankind, bloodshed has always been part of human life.
doesn't this verse imply that God is responsible for all the crime that humans have committed on earth?

It appears to be telling Muslims how to live not why things are the way they are, and the conversation here is itself a small story where the angels do not get to know what is going on, either. They can see that there are problems, but they do not get their questions answered. Its basically how life is, because you have to live it even if you don't understand it. Its the same water whether or not you know its molecular construction.

Sanctify in this case means to treat something as special. That does not seem confusing to me.

Kemosloby · Dec 18, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
It appears to be telling Muslims how to live not why things are the way they are, and the conversation here is itself a small story where the angels do not get to know what is going on, either. They can see that there are problems, but they do not get their questions answered. Its basically how life is, because you have to live it even if you don't understand it. Its the same water whether or not you know its molecular construction.

Sanctify in this case means to treat something as special. That does not seem confusing to me.

Sanctify means to make holy. The definition there is a little convoluded since it doesn't take God into consideration. In the Old Testament scriptures the Lord faults the Jewish rabbi's for the same oversight, reminding them who sanctifies them. Perhaps the Jews taught Muhammed rather than the Lord.

sanc·ti·fy
ˈsaNG(k)təˌfī/
verb

set apart as or declare holy; consecrate.
"a small shrine was built to sanctify the site"
synonyms: consecrate, bless, make holy, hallow, make sacred, dedicate to God
"he came to sanctify the site"
- make legitimate or binding by religious sanction.
  "they see their love sanctified by the sacrament of marriage"
  synonyms: approve, sanction, condone, vindicate, endorse, support, back, permit, allow, authorize, legitimize
  "we must not sanctify this outrage"
- free from sin; purify.
  synonyms: purify, cleanse, free from sin, absolve, unburden, redeem
  "they sanctified themselves"

columbus · Dec 18, 2017

Kemosloby said:
Sanctify means to make holy.

One runs into this kind of problem when translating quite often. Even when "translating" what someone wrote a long time ago, when the same words have somewhat different meanings. Whatever word got translated into "sanctify" here doubtless meant something else to the author of the Quran.
Tom

Jumi · Dec 18, 2017

columbus said:
One runs into this kind of problem when translating quite often. Even when "translating" what someone wrote a long time ago, when the same words have somewhat different meanings. Whatever word got translated into "sanctify" here doubtless meant something else to the author of the Quran.

It's also the same with texts that aren't even translated to another language. Often meanings of words shift in time. Like in English nice used to mean stupid, naughty meant poor and awful used to mean awesome.

columbus · Dec 18, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
Sanctify in this case means to treat something as special. That does not seem confusing to me.

This is one of the reasons I don't trust Scripture, even as far as accurately representing the meaning of the original human authors, much less God. People bring their own interpretation of the words, no matter how sincerely they try to figure out the original intent.

If God wanted us to know something He could do far better than some marks on paper of questionable origins.
Tom

columbus · Dec 18, 2017

Jumi said:
It's also the same with texts that aren't even translated to another language. Often meanings of words shift in time. Like in English nice used to mean stupid, naughty meant poor and awful used to mean awesome.

Exactly.
And the problems are compounded when the translator is filtering his own work through a worldview dramatically different from that of the original author and audience.
You can see that happen in modern Christian ethics, as secular morality gets retrofitted into Scripture.
Tom

Sanzbir · Dec 18, 2017

Moon195 said:
which implies that the angles knew the consequences of this creation

Nah, man, it says the exact opposite. That they didn't know the true consequences of creation. Hence: "I know that which you do not know."

socharlie · Dec 18, 2017

Moon195 said:
based on the Qur'an, before the creation of Adam, there was something like a discussion between God and the angels regarding this very unique creation:
{And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."} [2: 30].

which implies that the angles knew the consequences of this creation. this, along with the fact that humans have experienced throughout history of mankind, bloodshed has always been part of human life.
doesn't this verse imply that God is responsible for all the crime that humans have committed on earth?

this world operates on basis of Natural Law, so acts humanity. In dimension of God we can not practically
learn good and evil - this is why the material world appeared.

Brickjectivity · Dec 18, 2017

columbus said:
This is one of the reasons I don't trust Scripture, even as far as accurately representing the meaning of the original human authors, much less God. People bring their own interpretation of the words, no matter how sincerely they try to figure out the original intent.

If God wanted us to know something He could do far better than some marks on paper of questionable origins.
Tom

I am forced to see your point, but it is only an issue in a framework where 'Scripture' means something other than 'Writing' like what becomes of Aristotle's model of the universe with the Earth at its center. When some people say scripture its like when your momma says "Look at me when I'm talking to you Charles Joseph Dwight Reginald Stanley the Third!"

Tumah · Dec 18, 2017

Kemosloby said:
Sanctify means to make holy. The definition there is a little convoluded since it doesn't take God into consideration.

In Judaism, we use the word slightly differently at times. For instance, someone who has does something that makes people look at G-d in a positive light has sanctified G-d's Name. When the angels say "Holy, holy, holy" we call that sanctifying G-d's Name as well.

In the Old Testament scriptures the Lord faults the Jewish rabbi's for the same oversight, reminding them who sanctifies them.

I'd love to get a source for that claim, being as the word "rabbi" doesn't appear in Tanach.

Perhaps the Jews taught Muhammed rather than the Lord.

In this case you happen to be right. There were at least two major Jewish influences on nascent Islam, Abdullah ibn Salam and Ka'ab al Ahbar. The former was said to be a companion of Muhammad and the latter of Umar. So it should come as know surprise to see passages like this in the Qur'an.

Rav Yehuda says that Rav says: At the time that the Holy One, Blessed be He, sought to create a person, He created one group of ministering angels. He said to them: If you agree, let us fashion a person in our image. The angels said before him: Master of the Universe, what are the actions of this person You suggest to create? God said to them: His actions are such and such, according to human nature.

The angels said before him: Master of the Universe: “What is man that You are mindful of him? And the son of man that You think of him?” ((Psalms 8:5), i.e., a creature such as this is not worth creating. God outstretched His small finger among them and burned them with fire. And the same occurred with a second group of angels. The third group of angels that He asked said before Him: Master of the Universe, the first two groups who spoke their mind before You, what did they accomplish? The entire world is Yours; whatever You wish to do in Your world, do. God then created the first person.

When history arrived at the time of the people of the generation of the flood and the people of the generation of the dispersion, i.e., the Tower of Babel, whose actions were ruinous, the angels said before God: Master of the Universe, didn’t the first set of angels speak appropriately before You, that human beings are not worthy of having been created? God said to them concerning humanity: “Even to your old age I am the same; and even to hoar hairs will I suffer you; I have made and I will bear; and I will carry, and I will deliver you” (Isaiah 46:4), i.e., having created people, I will even suffer their flaws.

-Talmud Sanhedrin

There are actually a few Midrash like this.

Kemosloby · Dec 18, 2017

Tumah said:
In Judaism, we use the word slightly differently at times. For instance, someone who has does something that makes people look at G-d in a positive light has sanctified G-d's Name. When the angels say "Holy, holy, holy" we call that sanctifying G-d's Name as well.

I'd love to get a source for that claim, being as the word "rabbi" doesn't appear in Tanach.

In this case you happen to be right. There were at least two major Jewish influences on nascent Islam, Abdullah ibn Salam and Ka'ab al Ahbar. The former was said to be a companion of Muhammad and the latter of Umar. So it should come as know surprise to see passages like this in the Qur'an.

Rav Yehuda says that Rav says: At the time that the Holy One, Blessed be He, sought to create a person, He created one group of ministering angels. He said to them: If you agree, let us fashion a person in our image. The angels said before him: Master of the Universe, what are the actions of this person You suggest to create? God said to them: His actions are such and such, according to human nature.

The angels said before him: Master of the Universe: “What is man that You are mindful of him? And the son of man that You think of him?” ((Psalms 8:5), i.e., a creature such as this is not worth creating. God outstretched His small finger among them and burned them with fire. And the same occurred with a second group of angels. The third group of angels that He asked said before Him: Master of the Universe, the first two groups who spoke their mind before You, what did they accomplish? The entire world is Yours; whatever You wish to do in Your world, do. God then created the first person.

When history arrived at the time of the people of the generation of the flood and the people of the generation of the dispersion, i.e., the Tower of Babel, whose actions were ruinous, the angels said before God: Master of the Universe, didn’t the first set of angels speak appropriately before You, that human beings are not worthy of having been created? God said to them concerning humanity: “Even to your old age I am the same; and even to hoar hairs will I suffer you; I have made and I will bear; and I will carry, and I will deliver you” (Isaiah 46:4), i.e., having created people, I will even suffer their flaws.

-Talmud Sanhedrin

There are actually a few Midrash like this.

And I guess that's why the Lord often seemed angry with the Jewish Rabbis...banishing them from time to time. How's that temple in Israel btw?

Tumah · Dec 18, 2017

Kemosloby said:
And I guess that's why the Lord often seemed angry with the Jewish Rabbis...banishing them from time to time. How's that temple in Israel btw?

Banished Jewish Rabbis?
What's the Temple have to do with the Rabbis?

Kemosloby · Dec 18, 2017

Tumah said:
Banished Jewish Rabbis?
What's the Temple have to do with the Rabbis?

I'm glad you asked. Here we see it is the Lord who sanctifies Israel. Sanctification works like trickle down economics.

Ezekiel 37:28
And when my Temple is among them forever, the nations will know that I am the LORD, who makes Israel holy."

Moon195 · Dec 18, 2017

Kemosloby said:
Sanctify means to make holy. The definition there is a little convoluded since it doesn't take God into consideration. In the Old Testament scriptures the Lord faults the Jewish rabbi's for the same oversight, reminding them who sanctifies them. Perhaps the Jews taught Muhammed rather than the Lord.

sanc·ti·fy
ˈsaNG(k)təˌfī/
verb

set apart as or declare holy; consecrate.
"a small shrine was built to sanctify the site"
synonyms: consecrate, bless, make holy, hallow, make sacred, dedicate to God
"he came to sanctify the site"

make legitimate or binding by religious sanction.
"they see their love sanctified by the sacrament of marriage"
synonyms: approve, sanction, condone, vindicate, endorse, support, back, permit, allow, authorize, legitimize
"we must not sanctify this outrage"

free from sin; purify.
synonyms: purify, cleanse, free from sin, absolve, unburden, redeem
"they sanctified themselves"

Kemosloby said:
That's backwards when you have the "Angels" sanctifying God rather than God sanctifying the Angels. Who's the boss in that picture anyway??

I'm thinking Muhammed was no prophet at all.

Thanks for the reply!
Well, i see that there is a problem with the translation and not with the Arabic verse itself. therefore, i apologize for relying on the translation and copy pasting it from a page without going through the translation. that part in Arabic is : نقدس لک which means we keep admitting and praising your purity and holiness.
regarding your thought which the Jews taught Mohammad rather than the Lord, I must say that the Jews were the real enemies of the profit and they did what ever they could to get rid of him. unfortunately most of his followers were Jews who were hypocritically pretending to be Muslims by saying the vow "There is no god but the Lord." studying and understanding the history of Islam requires a lot of time and objectivity. the treason for this lies behind the fact that after profits death, Abo Bakr and Omar launched a coup to overthrow the true successor to Mohammad , Ali Ibn Abitalib, and become the first and second caliphs of the Islamic territories. They did what they wanted with the Koran to establish their government. that's why there is so many contradictions in Koran.

Moon195 · Dec 18, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
It appears to be telling Muslims how to live not why things are the way they are, and the conversation here is itself a small story where the angels do not get to know what is going on, either. They can see that there are problems, but they do not get their questions answered. Its basically how life is, because you have to live it even if you don't understand it. Its the same water whether or not you know its molecular construction.

Sanctify in this case means to treat something as special. That does not seem confusing to me.

Moon195 · Dec 18, 2017

Brickjectivity said:
It appears to be telling Muslims how to live not why things are the way they are, and the conversation here is itself a small story where the angels do not get to know what is going on, either. They can see that there are problems, but they do not get their questions answered. Its basically how life is, because you have to live it even if you don't understand it. Its the same water whether or not you know its molecular construction.

Sanctify in this case means to treat something as special. That does not seem confusing to me.

Thanks for the reply!
What i meant by sending this post was pointing out the acknowledgment made by the angels introducing the fact that humans will commit crime and shed blood on earth - as we all have seen throughout the history on earth - which shows that the angels were completely aware of such cruel traits in human beings. This perfectly shows the intention of God by creating humans.

Moon195 · Dec 18, 2017

columbus said:
This is one of the reasons I don't trust Scripture, even as far as accurately representing the meaning of the original human authors, much less God. People bring their own interpretation of the words, no matter how sincerely they try to figure out the original intent.

If God wanted us to know something He could do far better than some marks on paper of questionable origins.
Tom

I don't trust it either, not because it might not have been sent by God!!! I strongly believe that it was sent by God, but the disappointing fact is that all scriptures have been distorted by those who came to power under the name of religion, in a way to have enough justification to first proclaim their legitimacy and second, to have enough authority based on the scripture to dictate what ever they wanted. that's why religious governments have been so difficult to overthrow.

Brickjectivity · Dec 18, 2017

Moon195 said:
I don't trust it either, not because it might not have been sent by God!!! I strongly believe that it was sent by God, but the disappointing fact is that all scriptures have been distorted by those who came to power under the name of religion, in a way to have enough justification to first proclaim their legitimacy and second, to have enough authority based on the scripture to dictate what ever they wanted. that's why religious governments have been so difficult to overthrow.

Wow what a very good argument. Oh boy it would be so clever and sneaky if missionaries would say things like that, but they don't. Generally they just don't seem to understand skeptical people. They're always baptized in fire and imagine everyone who holds a holy book is somehow protected from evil thoughts and shaky hands, and its just absolutely impossible that there could be any mistakes in their line of reasoning. They're always right. It seems they are always taught by the best, the most sincere and infallible people and questioning that is just like throwing rocks at a church.

Creator's plan to create a world based on cruelty

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