Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Then why the bogus mention of the "spiritually ignorant". When you screw up, at least try to be honest and admit it
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"Christmas Fallacies"
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
I said it (the word) was misused. I defined nothing.
Do Christians speak in tongues? Must they follow the OT law? Need they confess to an Earthly father? It is up to each to seek spiritual truth.
If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything, and says "I am a Christian," he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy Spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded. This is the way it happens to one when he experiences a mystery.- Gospel of Philip
It either makes sense or it doesn't.
Does an atheist get to define a Christian? Or what isn't Christian? As far as knowledge (gnosis), I see an atheist being the furthest from it. It's not just knowledge, but the understanding of it. I played an orthodox believer for some 20 years. So I see both sides of the (Christian) coin.
If you reread my posts, I keep saying "perspective". That is what I am saying. From "my perspective", through gnosis, I speak. Whether someone believes it or not is not important to me.
I back up what I say with canon scripture as well as non canon. But it is central to the Gospel message(s) of Jesus. Nothing else.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
If I "screw up" I will admit it. The opposite of spiritual gnosis is ignorance, How did the catholic priests in the 4th century say they had the Holy Spirit then go out and murder? Would a Christian say that the Spirit murders? Should you love an enemy or kill them to eliminate them? Why didn't Jesus just let Peter slay the man who came to get him?
Does the Bible say to kill? Now........does the Gospel message say to kill?
Maybe the words the catholic (Christians) don't want you to read, will give a different "perspective":
Most things in the world, as long as their inner parts are hidden, stand upright and live. If they are revealed, they die, as is illustrated by the visible man: as long as the intestines of the man are hidden, the man is alive; when his intestines are exposed and come out of him, the man will die. So also with the tree: while its root is hidden, it sprouts and grows. If its root is exposed, the tree dries up. So it is with every birth that is in the world, not only with the revealed but with the hidden. For so long as the root of wickedness is hidden, it is strong. But when it is recognized, it is dissolved. When it is revealed, it perishes. That is why the Word says, "Already the axe is laid at the root of the trees" (Mt 3:10). It will not merely cut - what is cut sprouts again - but the ax penetrates deeply, until it brings up the root. Jesus pulled out the root of the whole place, while others did it only partially. As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us. If we are joined to it, it will bring our fulfillment.- Gospel of Philip
If we are allowed to exist by the grace of God, how can one justify not offering the same to another. It is ignorance of "love". The teaching of the spirit over the flesh. The Gospel mystery.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Some do and some don't and yet you tried to claim that Catholics were not Christians. Or have you forgotten that you said "Catholics reject it. Not Christians .."
You shoot yourself in the foot by relying on gospels that are not widely accepted. In fact they may be limited to sects that could rightly be called "cults".
And that is the problem with your religion.
Atheists tend to understand the Bible better than most Christians. That is why many of them became atheists in the first place.
You tend to rely too heavily on scriptures that are non-canonical and ignore the history of the area. As pointed out, the Septuagint had a mistranslation. The writers of the Gospels, at least the canonical ones were Greek scholars, probably not the people that the Gospels were named after. The virgin birth myth was based on trying to fit the story to that book. The mistranslation of a line that was about a statement that was history and not even prophecy. You need to look a bit beyond your limited scope if you want to fully understand the Bible.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You can't even demonstrate that such a thing exists, much less that you have any spiritual gnosis. And Christian group after Christian group is guilty of murder. Once they got power they killed to maintain it. All you are pointing out is that they are not your type of Christian. That flaw was not limited to Catholics at all.
The Bible says to kill countless times. And Jesus is far from a saint. He appears to be ready to send far too many people to hell.
I seriously don't think that another Gospel will help you. You are merely using another evil mythical book to defend other evil mythical books.
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Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Before you judge the books of gnosis, you should seek in them to make that decision for yourself.
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."- Thomas
Understanding the Bible isn't enough. Jesus never said teach the Bible, did he?
If you are "troubled" by what the Bible has taught you, you have the chance to be one that is "amazed".
The word atheist doesn't throw me at all. They tend to be more honest with themselves than the many who say they are Christians, yet teach a different gospel message.
Galatians 1 explains this (11-12). And Paul taught the "hidden knowledge".
If you enjoy where you are, stay. As an orthodox believer for 20 years, I wasn't spiritually free. But now have a better understanding that has increased my elation and faith ten fold.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Jesus sends no one anywhere. He offers a path, if you desire it. You are going to die you know?
Some don't care. They just want to live and die. Others want more. If you are elated with the status quo, great.
Evil is in the eyes of the beholder.
I need no help, friend. That's the point. I'm not asking you to do anything. The reason the early gnostics are not as well known as the catholics is due to the new RCC destroying books of gnosis as well as killing the gnostics themselves. The gnostics did resist. They met death, as Jesus did, understanding that death meant the beginning of life. The chasm created in the first 3 centuries was a wide one. Catholic and Gnostic. The Catholics won. And yes, through murder (throughout the centuries). Learn about the Cathers to see my point.
I do not blame you for your beliefs. Don't blame ignorance on mine. I've have studied many religions and read many early Christian books (canon and non) for over 45 years, with much praying.
When you start attacking me, rather than the content I bring forth, it becomes an unhealthy debate.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That is a lame and dishonest excuse. We have all heard it countless times. And yes, we did. So what?
Fine, you have the make believe idea that hell is not forever, though again some verses say that it is some can be interpreted to say that it isn't. Don't pretend that your version of Christianity is the only one or even the right one.
Wow! A Christian that believes in relative morality. Amazing. Of course if you can't see that the God of the Bible is evil then your morals are rather poor.
Actually you do as shown by your demonstrated poor morals. Yes, morals are relative, but some morals are better than others. And yes, the Catholics tended to eliminate the competition. You still have to show that there is any validity at all to these other gospels and I don't think that you can do that. Just because you like what they say does not make them right.
So what? Can you explain why others do not believe as you do? I don't think that this is a matter of ignorance, you are simply believing what you want to believe.
You are just as guilty in that as I am, if not more so. I merely pointed out some errors in the gospels. If you want to get back to them that is fine with me.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Seriously I have better things to do then to make the sort of error that you have amde.
[quote[
Understanding the Bible isn't enough. Jesus never said teach the Bible, did he?[/quote]
Where are you getting that from?
Once one understands the Bible and how it merely reflects the beliefs of the past there is not that much that is amazing about it.
People that have "found the hidden knowledge" have just found a source that agrees with their prejudices. Let's get back to the errors in the gospels.
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Oh my, yes, You lost. You can't support your claims. I don't understand why people that have found their own special brand of woo think that that makes it better than other woo.
angellous_evangellous
Christian
I don't think that any of these items make a difference. A lot of them I think that people already know - at least a reasonably educated person knows that Jesus wasn't born in a barn. Probably the next level of critical thinking will uncover that there are discrepancies in the Gospels as to the particulars of when / how stuff happened (like Mary and Joseph looking for a place to stay, the details concerning the so-called 'wise men).
The only real issue that I have with your source (as you present it here) is the final conclusion: "This is how middle easterners thought and translated from the Greek over a 1,000 years ago (800’s)."
The Gospels present different histories of Jesus's birth, and as such most of the traditions that Christians have do have roots in one reading or another of these texts. It's not possible to look at the Gospels as a whole and conclude that every middle easterner in a Greek translation 1,000 or 800 years ago (whatever that means) would have one understanding of the events surrounding the myths of Jesus's birth.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Do they make any difference?
"Title: False Christmas Traditions
Text: Luke 2.1-7
So how off is the traditional story from what Scripture clearly shows…let’s look at some parts to the story that aren’t in the Bible; Luke 2.1
Note, there is more information on these in the article, so if you feel inclined to dispute any please take a look at the relevant fallacy first.I. Jesus wasn’t born on December 25th.
We don’t really know the date. Jewish historian Josephus placed the death of Herod in the spring of 4 B.C. between a lunar eclipse on March 12 and the Passover on April 11. Not in December, but probably in the Fall of 5 BC. Truth is, we just don’t know.
So, according to Scripture, we’re only given a time period.
II. There was No Donkey – ill.: Small One; That’s right, there is no donkey or burro mentioned in Scripture. It is at the end of his life, but not here. I remember having this conversation in Bible Study a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, there is no Donkey. She probably walked with Joseph. She could have ridden a donkey, but there isn’t any evidence that she did. #3…
III. They were not Late Arrivals. When Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph had already been in Bethlehem – probably for some time.
exp.: we think of Joseph struggling to get to Bethlehem; maybe travel was harder because his wife was slowing him down? So, he got a donkey for her to ride on because she’s so close to giving birth. No, the text actually tells us that they were there for a period of time before she gave birth. Luke give us this double entendre to clarify: KJV – And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. KJV, v 1; v15; same here in v 6 – Lit.: And it came to pass ‘while they are there’; You see, Joseph and Mary would have had plenty of time to make arrangements for lodging; just note:
This is his family’s hometown – he could have reproduced his simple heritage; he was royalty; the son of Jacob, the son of Eleazar; Or,
Mary’s family was just down the road in the ‘hill country of Judea’
IV. Jesus was not born in a barn.
exp.: or a cave; rd v 7; so she gives birth, to her ‘first born’ son; lit.: she wraped him in cloths; she swaddled him; My all time favorite description of this came from Joshua Webb: She made a burrito baby; the text says she laid him in a manger. Well, to the western mind, that would mean a barn. But, that’s not the case in this time Period in the Holy Land.
The 1st question for us here is: just what is a manger? This word manger is popular in Scripture. Each time it is used, it means the same thing: a feeding trough for an animal; say a goat, a lamb or a cow; we as East Texans in 2015 know that you feed your cows outside or in a barn; but those from the Middle East see this differently;
The key isn’t found in the word ‘manger’ but rather in the next set of words which record the reason for why she laid him in a feed trough; Now, I’m going to use the KJV again, because that is the most popular version of the Christmas story and the one that has established what we believe. We start with the word because: KJV/NASB – because there was no room for them in the inn.
V. The Angels didn’t sing
And the Angel said to them: rd v 11-12; you’ll find the baby swaddled…just as other common folk would care for their newborn babies; and 2nd, he’d be lying in a manger…not in some mansion or governor’s home, but rather in a home like theirs!
Suddenly, there is a host of angels! Rd v 13-14; Again, they didn’t sing but said: Praising God and Saying; rd v 15-16; Question: If they’d found the child and their family left out in the cold and rejected by Bethlehem’s residents, don’t you think one of them would have intervened? …Especially, after the announcement by the Angel!
Conclusion:
Mary & Joseph were not late in arriving to Bethlehem.
source
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In your quoting Luke 2:1-7, Had you read Verse 8 You would have found the shepherd's abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flocks by night"
Now if you had any knowledge about shepherd's and having animals that eats grass, such as goats and sheep's, cows, horses, they really wouldn't be out in the fields during the month of December let alone being out in the fields at night during the winter months, all because the fields most likely would be covered by snow. Let alone the shepherd's being out in the fields at night during the winter months.
Just because Christians hold the Month of December 25th, as a day that Christ Jesus was to be born on, There's absolutely nothing wrong in that.
What matters is the motive behind it, The motive behind it, Is that Christians Remembering to give Praise, Honour, Glory, to God the Father for sending his Son Christ Jesus into this world.
That's the whole significance behind December 25th, For Christians up holding the Month of December 25th.
As long as we hold it to God the Father and the Lord Christ Jesus and not to ourselves.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Please note that when I indent a block of text and accompany it with a "source: at the end, it is not mine. If you care to take issue with the absence of Luke 2:8 please contact the author of the piece, Dr. Fred Smith, senior pastor at Calvary Baptist Church, Tyler, TX.
Outside of being a fallacy, no one said there was. Want to assert fallacies as truths, which is obviously the case when Christians claim December 25 as thee day Jesus was born, go right ahead.
It's your story, tell it any way you wish. .
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Please note that when I indent a block of text and accompany it with a "source: at the end, it is not mine. If you care to take issue with the absence of Luke 2:8 please contact the author of the piece, Dr. Fred Smith, senior pastor at Calvary Baptist Church, Tyler, TX.
Outside of being a fallacy, no one said there was. Want to assert fallacies as truths, which is obviously the case when Christians claim December 25 as thee day Jesus was born, go right ahead.
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I never said December 25th as being the exact day Christ Jesus being born on.
As far as Christ Jesus being born, it would have to be one of the Months from May to September, seeing the Shepherd's would be out in the fields watching over their flocks.
Luke 2:8.
Who knows when or how December 25th came down as being the day Christ Jesus as being born on, Luke 2:8 does not support that claim of December 25th.
Alot of Christians have no knowledge if none at all, About Luke 2:8, They just accepted December 25th as the day.
Ever since I was small child and being raised around farm animals, I was taught that December 25th was not the day Christ Jesus was born on. But one of the Months between May to September.
Not only this, but also remember that Mary was pregnant with Christ Jesus and her and her husband Joseph traveled from Egypt back to Bethlehem of Judae.
Now why would a woman who is pregnant and the husband travel walk hundreds of miles in the winter ? From Egypt to Bethlehem ?
That's long ways to walk in the winter, especially with a woman who is pregnant with child that is soon to be born.
As soon as Mary and Joseph got to Bethlehem, that night Christ Jesus was born.
You see none of what is taught in the churches, are accurate. This is one of the reasons why I don't belong to a church.
They just pick up something and not question it, just off and running with it.
This is exactly how the rapture theory came about, that alot of Christians don't question it, Their off and running with it. No questions ask.and nothing in the Bible to support their Rapture Theory.
There are many things that are being taught in the churches, that the bible does not support.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
You said, "Just because Christians hold the Month of December 25th, as a day that Christ Jesus was to be born on, There's absolutely nothing wrong in that." and considering that you call yourself a Christian it's reasonable to conclude you're in that group (Christians) who hold that "the Month of December 25th, as a day that Christ Jesus was to be born on." I assume you understand the concept of inclusive classes in categorical propositions. All S is P. You're an S. Therefore you're a P.
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Srivijaya
Active Member
Next you're going to tell me it wasn't snowing either!
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Just because a person is a Christian does not mean they are in the same group.
As to who said I hold the month of December 25th, I just told you, that there is no way Christ Jesus could haved been born on December 25th. Only during some where in the Months of May to September.
Seeing how the Shepherd's were out in the fields watching over their flocks.
Since I know that the Month of December 25th is not the day that Christ Jesus was not born on.
If I held December 25th that would be me contradicting myself, wouldn't you think. Knowing its not the right day. Go Figure
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Skwim
Veteran Member
True, but you didn't bother to qualify your term, so there is no reason I should guess and do it for you.
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Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Ok, if I may say, I do not believe as other Christians believe. This is why I do not belong to their churches.