Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
I am going to take a break.
Yep, I know copy paste problems.
It was from post 117
Your loss.
You are wrong. Knowing God, about what is taught by God must be included. Obedience to God can only come by knowing what is disapproved, what is forbidden.
I am fairly sure that more than once in this discussion of this thread, that I have said clearly there is no hell, no afterlife. There is punishment while we live, and if you followed the news you would know that some very important people are being punished at the moment for their sexual indiscretions. Their names are mud, their positions lost, at times their families dissolve in divorce.
if the metaphor changes you perspective
I think you need to study a lot harder.
You forgot that some things are easy to understand when they should be taken metaphorically.
It is so much easier, all things make themselves, and come from nothing.
I stopped doing dishes years ago because they will wash themselves.
But why would that be true in this case of Adam and Eve. The human condition remains true, regardless of whatever story we chose to wrap it around. Do you not see this? It could have been some other story and the same truth contained within it. It doesn't matter how it "happened", what the causal agent was, be that Adam and Eve in the Garden, or basic evolutionary processes of humankind waking up to find himself in a state of existential terror.
It sounds like literary vehicle part of a genre of the day called a Historical Fiction. There are numerous examples of this from the time period. If you take this literally, you're going to have problems when it contradicts other "genealogies" in the Bible. When you understand its not about being "factual", and understand it to present Christ as a figure at the heart of the Jewish religion, offering some appearance of pedigree for the sake of mythologizing him, elevating him above all other prophets, then of course it makes perfect sense. It was never written to record history, the way a modern historian would. It was for a very different purpose. Luke was no historian, when you compare him to actual historians of the day. He cites no sources for his information, for one thing...
Sure, the facts of the narrative don't really matter, when the purpose is to talk about the greater truths. Let me give you an example. "Just like George Washington confessed to chopping down the cherry tree as a child, so too do good, honest children of all ages follow his example and tell the truth to adults when they are asked." The story of the cherry tree is historical fiction. It never happened. Yet, the value of being truthful is in fact very real!
Well, that is really ungracious, and unChristian of you, I'm sad to say. First of all, I don't "disbelieve". You've talked with me before. Do you think I am an atheist? You should not equate how someone thinks about, understands or interprets these things, as the same thing as what their relationship to and with God is. That is your ego projecting itself as the Standard by which all creatures under God are to be judge to stand or to fall. I can forgive you that immaturity, and point you to scriptures which speak specifically to you as a Christian not doing that with others. Start reading some of what Paul was writing to the church in Corinth, for starters.
You see, I would say you may be losing out yourself right now in your doing this with me here. My personal 'walk with God' is very much about all of these things, but in the here and now, breathing that Life into my body, my mind, my soul, and my spirit in every moment. I allow life to change, and accept it as it comes with the strength that the Spirit grants in each moment. I do not find as much value in finding solace in a belief that as things fall apart, a better day awaits me after death, and place my hope in that belief. I find that misses the point. The Eternal, doesn't not start when I leave this body. It is here in me, right now. It is here for all of us, right now. "I come to give you life, and life more abundantly". That's not when we die. That's in every moment, in this life, and after the passing of this body.
I am not "wrong". What is taught about God, is listening to what others have to say about God. Hearing about God, is not the same thing as knowing God firsthand yourself. It's second hand information at best, and just egoic speculations projected onto God at worst. There is value to listen to those who have experience with God, and caution to be exercised with listening to those who have read the Bible till their eyes bleed, yet have not experienced God at all and live hoping that one day, when they die, they'll be saved by Him.
I need to correct you here. You have stated your ideas, not "how things are". They are how you see things, and that is entirely different. It's the same as me. I state how I see things too. You on the other hand are elevating your thoughts as facts, and that, my friend, makes you wrong. That's too bad. That leads to loss for you. And it's unnecessary. Humility is the key to Knowledge of God.
Since this is page 8 of this thread, could you tell me my post # you got this from.
I found my post, #14, here is what I said:
But if you are supposed to take it literally, there is no need for Wisdom. You can just use plain old simple intelligence and reason, like you would anything, like reading a manual for a new chainsaw or something. Chainsaw manuals are literal. Scripture is not. It requires inspiration. Is the Bible to be read literally just like you would a chainsaw manual?
Well, then it certainly goes beyond literal then!
Do you need to spiritually discern the meaning of a chainsaw manual? No, of course not! You just read it literally. Anyone can understand it. And that's a good thing. Otherwise you might saw your leg off if you don't have divine guidance!
But if you are supposed to take it literally, there is no need for Wisdom. You can just use plain old simple intelligence and reason, like you would anything, like reading a manual for a new chainsaw or something. Chainsaw manuals are literal. Scripture is not. It requires inspiration. Is the Bible to be read literally just like you would a chainsaw manual?
Well, then it certainly goes beyond literal then!
Do you need to spiritually discern the meaning of a chainsaw manual? No, of course not! You just read it literally. Anyone can understand it. And that's a good thing. Otherwise you might saw your leg off if you don't have divine guidance!
So, do you still believe scripture is to be read literally? You seem to negate that with everything you just said about needing the Spirit of God to guide you....
You really want to go there with me? Ok.
It really depends on the mood you are in at the time. Seriously. That's the point of a good mythology. Its symbolism can say many different things, in many different ways, and at many different times.
Better question, what are the multiple ways you might see the significance? I'll bet you there is a whole lot more than just one!
But this has absolutely nothing to do with my point that if as you say you should read it literally, then you could ask anyone what that means, and anyone should be able to say the same thing. But they don't! Therefore, you have to read it symbolically. And symbolism has layers and layers and layers of different meanings.
You really want to go there with me? Ok.
It really depends on the mood you are in at the time. Seriously. That's the point of a good mythology. Its symbolism can say many different things, in many different ways, and at many different times.
The problem those like you run into is when you take one very meaningful take on the story at the time as THE MEANING. You literalize it to the point it has no more layers of meaning it could possibly give. Great way to kill those angles in the story, you fiend!
Better question, what are the multiple ways you might see the significance? I'll bet you there is a whole lot more than just one!
But this has absolutely nothing to do with my point that if as you say you should read it literally, then you could ask anyone what that means, and anyone should be able to say the same thing. But they don't! Therefore, you have to read it symbolically. And symbolism has layers and layers and layers of different meanings.
Not the sort of response you expected?
I did answer your question. You didn't hear, yet.
You asked what they meant, what they point to, right? That is what symbolism means. A symbol points to something else, beyond itself.
My answers line up quite well with scripture. It's just not something you see, yet. Scripture means something to you. It means something to me as well. It's just that it means something different to me than what it does to you. That's actually not that hard to understand, since we're all human, right?
Is this intended to make you feel more secure to tell yourself this? I think the fact I have a degree in theology alone invalidates this fantasy of your wishful thinking.
Little do you know about how the human mind works, or the purpose of symbolism in spiritual growth and development, or the manner in which language inspires. It's not meant to mean one thing, but many things.
I gave you more than what you asked for. I told you that if I have to find the meaning of the angels on the altar, you have just told me I shouldn't read the bible literally. You told me I should read it symbolically, and that contradicts you saying it's meant to be read literally. How hard is that to understand?
Why is that necessary? There is a lot of human knowledge and understanding of reality that is not spelled out in the bible. That doesn't negate the facts of it. Show me where a car is in the bible, or an airplane or a rocket. Yet these are real despite their absence on its pages.
What does it mean to you? What does it symbolize to you? What does it mean to others who are not you?
I'm sure there are plenty of theologians and scholars throughout the ages who have lots of different takes on the meanings of them. That's the beauty and power of symbolism. Do you think there should be one and only one meaning to these things?
You should want to hear me say this or that. It will help your understanding of things to grow, and subsequently the quality of your life increase. Education is a powerful tool and gift from God.
Can you give the book and chapter and verses that tell you you should read everything literally? And I'm not asking you for your interpretations of the meanings of the verses (which supports what I say about the symbolic value of the words), but a verse that literally says "this is how you should read the scriptures, not symbolically, but as scientific and historical facts without any interpretation at all". You can't, and therefore sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You have to deal with the facts of what I am presented, not try to hide from knowledge asking for some unrealistic expectation that you can't even do yourself.