"Grandliseur said:
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Not true. Without the story being true, there is n
o ransom to provide, no Christ from heaven, no Christ being resurrected and going back to heaven.
In some cases the moral of the story suffices, in others, if the story isn't true, nothing remains and all is fiction.
But why would that be true in this case of Adam and Eve. The human condition remains true, regardless of whatever story we chose to wrap it around. Do you not see this? It could have been some other story and the same truth contained within it. It doesn't matter how it "happened", what the causal agent was, be that Adam and Eve in the Garden, or basic evolutionary processes of humankind waking up to find himself in a state of existential terror.
I'll make it clear. I don't believe Adam and Eve were real people. But I do believe the truths about us that are contained in that story. It's those truths that the Christian message is built upon, not the notion of the "historicity" of Adam and Eve. The latter is a wholly modern construction that seeks justification in scripture, wholly missing the actual point as it struggles over details. That is my point I'm making.
In the genealogy of Jesus, his forefathers are mentioned. The end of the series is this:
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Does this sound like a fairy tale or as historical information given to us?
It sounds like literary vehicle part of a genre of the day called a Historical Fiction. There are numerous examples of this from the time period. If you take this literally, you're going to have problems when it contradicts other "genealogies" in the Bible. When you understand its not about being "factual", and understand it to present Christ as a figure at the heart of the Jewish religion, offering some appearance of pedigree for the sake of mythologizing him, elevating him above all other prophets, then of course it makes perfect sense. It was never written to record history, the way a modern historian would. It was for a very different purpose. Luke was no historian, when you compare him to actual historians of the day. He cites no sources for his information, for one thing...
Romans 5:13-14 . . .. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come.
Jesus about Noah, etc.;
Matthew 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
Sure, the facts of the narrative don't really matter, when the purpose is to talk about the greater truths. Let me give you an example. "Just like George Washington confessed to chopping down the cherry tree as a child, so too do good, honest children of all ages follow his example and tell the truth to adults when they are asked." The story of the cherry tree is historical fiction. It never happened. Yet, the value of being truthful is in fact very real!
Would you prefer instead to say, "Since the cherry tree story isn't historically true, the value of being honest has no basis in fact, therefore I can lie if I want to."? It's no different than saying, "If Adam didn't exist, then there is no reason to accept Jesus' message." You see? This literalism is what sets people, yourself included, up to toss out the Baby with the bathwater when they realize these stories are in fact not "historical accounts". This is what makes mythology powerful. It's the vehicle of storytelling for the purpose of communicating timeless truths, which are not dependent upon historical fact themselves. They exist as true no matter what time, or historical backgrounds.
You have the right to disbelieve and it will also mean that you do not have salvation.
Well, that is really ungracious, and unChristian of you, I'm sad to say. First of all, I don't "disbelieve". You've talked with me before. Do you think I am an atheist? You should not equate how someone thinks about, understands or interprets these things, as the same thing as what their relationship to and with God is. That is your ego projecting itself as the Standard by which all creatures under God are to be judge to stand or to fall. I can forgive you that immaturity, and point you to scriptures which speak specifically to you as a Christian not doing that with others. Start reading some of what Paul was writing to the church in Corinth, for starters.
Secondly, I do have salvation, which I understand slightly differently than you may, regardless of the fact I don't agree with your particular reasoning. I don't say you don't know God because you think of these mythologies as literal historical facts. I see that as a limitation of your mind, not your soul! So you might do better to follow my example here, just as I have Jesus' in instructing us to not judge another man's servant, lest you find yourself being judged yourself. As they say, when you point your finger at someone else, there are three fingers pointing back at you. I understand the limits of my mind's abilities, as well as its strengths, and I'm not going to transgress the Spirit in making my thoughts about things the judge of you. Neither should you do that, for your own sake.
All of us grow old and die, yet, at the end of our lives we surely would wish for good health again, for our husbands or wives to be with us, for the grandparents to be with us. That is what some of us look forward to.
Your loss.
You see, I would say you may be losing out yourself right now in your doing this with me here. My personal 'walk with God' is very much about all of these things, but in the here and now, breathing that Life into my body, my mind, my soul, and my spirit in every moment. I allow life to change, and accept it as it comes with the strength that the Spirit grants in each moment. I do not find as much value in finding solace in a belief that as things fall apart, a better day awaits me after death, and place my hope in that belief. I find that misses the point. The Eternal, doesn't not start when I leave this body. It is here in me, right now. It is here for all of us, right now. "I come to give you life, and life more abundantly". That's not when we die. That's in every moment, in this life, and after the passing of this body.
I hope your not wasting this inherence available to you right now. I will say this though, that if you are judging others by yourself, you aren't availing yourself of it.
You are wrong. Knowing God, about what is taught by God must be included. Obedience to God can only come by knowing what is disapproved, what is forbidden.
I am not "wrong". What is taught about God, is listening to what others have to say about God. Hearing about God, is not the same thing as knowing God firsthand yourself. It's second hand information at best, and just egoic speculations projected onto God at worst. There is value to listen to those who have experience with God, and caution to be exercised with listening to those who have read the Bible till their eyes bleed, yet have not experienced God at all and live hoping that one day, when they die, they'll be saved by Him.
I listen to those who have experience, as I know if they have or have not. But then I also take into account that the ways we talk about God, after the fact of the experience, is not the Truth of God itself. It's all our interpretations, or translations of that experience. Some speak of God in mythological language, others in rational terms, still others in playful poetic terms. It's not the terms nor the languages, but the Spirit Itself within the heart of the speaker. I can tell those who have Knowledge of God, and I can tell hacks who boast as they hold the Bible high above their heads proclaiming, "It's not my words, but God's!" I know them as well, and it is their egos speaking to compensate for being spiritually blind.
I have stated clearly how things are, and you have your own concept. Fine with me.
I need to correct you here. You have stated your ideas, not "how things are". They are how you see things, and that is entirely different. It's the same as me. I state how I see things too. You on the other hand are elevating your thoughts as facts, and that, my friend, makes you wrong. That's too bad. That leads to loss for you. And it's unnecessary. Humility is the key to Knowledge of God.