Should Scripture Be Taken Literally?

Since Moses spoke face to face with God over 40 years and was the writer of the first five books, which include Genesis, I would say no part is the stuff of myth. In fact the attention to details and places and times is not at all consistent with the literature style of myth.

God may allow superficial similarities in some ways to prepare the world for Jesus to come
'in the fullness of time'

Genesis was not myth, rather a "Myth Buster"
quote

Not Just Another Myth
Is there any merit to the idea that Genesis was written as myth, like Ancient Near Eastern myths? While some details are similar, they are told in a style that highlights the contrast between pagan myths and historical reality.

Superficial Similarities

• The Hebrew word deep in Genesis 1:2 sounds like the word for the goddess Tiamat of the Ancient Near Eastern creation myths.
• Both have waters above and beneath separated by a firmament.
• Both have light before sun, moon, and stars.
• Both describe mankind’s failure to please deity.
• Both refer to plants that confer immortality.
• Both mention a serpent.
• Both describe a global flood.

Profound Differences

• Battle elements. Genesis does not envision creation as a war of the gods.
• Pantheistic elements. Genesis does not talk about natural elements as gods.1
• Creative activity as sexual activity. Genesis does not describe God’s creation in this way.
• Poetic language. Genesis does not have “synonymous parallelism” (restating the same idea in two ways) in every description.
• Reference to time. Genesis speaks of creation “in the beginning” and “days,” contrary to myths, which speak more about seasons.2

unquote
from
Genesis—The Original Myth Buster

SalixIncendium said:

I watched a debate between Richard Dawkins and Cardinal Pell last night in which Cardinal Pell professes that the Catholic Church views the story of the Garden of Eden as "...a beautiful, sophisticated, mythological account." and that "...it’s a religious story told for religious purposes."

Which begs the question, if one of the largest religious institutions in the world that uses the Bible conveys that there are parts of the Bible that should not be taken literally, and that they are "mythological," who has the authority to decide what parts of the Bible are to be taken literally and which ones are "stories told for religious purposes?"

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Nature is the authority in all of this. Neither science nor religion nor any theory or doctrine ultimately is as authoratative as nature. That though then requires, us to ask if modern religion which created theory" theology"based on emperical observation the Bible, then I would question. Everything by everbody. Just a suggestion.

shunyadragon said:

This is incomplete and selective concerning what Philo and St. Paul believed concerning what is allegorical and what is literal. They proposed that both literal and allegorical may be applied to some of the narratives, but nonetheless considered the basic narratives as literal concerning Adam and Eve, the Fall, Original Sin, world flood, and the purpose of the fulfillment of prophesy by Jesus Christ.

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Original sin post-dates both of these figures so I don't know how they took it literally. Philo was also a Jew, so presumably didn't believe that about Jesus either

The point was that, to some degree, they were not taken literally. The degree to which they did so is debatable, but it shows that allegory has always been a part of Biblical interpretation.

Philo:

What is meant by the tree of life, and why it was placed in the middle of the Paradise? (#Ge 2:9). Some people have believed that, if there were really plants of a corporeal and deadly nature, there are also some which are causes of life and immortality, because, they say, life and death are opposed to one another, and because some plants are ascertained to be unwholesome, therefore of necessity there must be others from which health may be derived. But what these are which are wholesome they know not; for generation, as the opinion of the wise has it, is the beginning of corruption. But perhaps we ought to look on these things as spoken in an allegorical sense; for some say the tree of life belongs to the earth, inasmuch as it is the earth which produces everything which is of use for life, whether it be the life of mankind or of any other animal; since God has appointed the situation in the centre for this plant, and the centre of the universe is the earth. There are others who assert that what is meant by the tree of life is the centre between the seven circles of heaven; but some affirm that it is the sun which is meant, as that is nearly in the centre, between the different planets, and is likewise the cause of the four seasons, and since it is owing to him that every thing which exists is called into existence. Others again understand by the tree of life the direction of the soul, for this it is which renders the sense nervous and solid, so as to produce actions corresponding to its nature, and to the community of the parts of the body. But whatever is in the middle is in a manner the primary cause and beginning of things, like the leader of a chorus. But still, the best and wisest authorities have considered that by the tree of life is indicated the best of all the virtues of man, piety, by which alone the mind attains to immortality.

shunyadragon said:

This is not clear nor meaningful concerning the link between mythology and Genesis. Needs clarification, because the fog index is too high.

I believe the link between ancient mythology and Genesis and other parts of the OT is demonstrated 'beyond a reasonable doubt.'

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Sorry, I don't understand this point. Can you explain what you mean please?

sayak83 said:

Classifications are useful to store and transcribe data, especially now in the digitized world. I won't call it an obsession, rather the emphasis had evolved with technology.

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It is useful at times, but there is often a reification of boundaries between things where previously there would have been none.

This may bring benefits, but can also be a detriment to understanding especially when it comes to understanding how the pre-moderns viewed such things.

Grandliseur said:

Funny! I mentioned a Harmonious Interpretation, if you remember. I also do not expect to condense 60 years of Bible study into a one minute explanation.
Look at this please:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to point out unto his servants the things which must needs come to pass with speed,—and he shewed them by signs, sending through his messenger, unto his servant John; (Rotherham)​

How is the book of Revelation written? In signs and symbols.

Revelation 11: 7 And, as soon as they have completed their witnessing, the wild-beast that is to come up out of the abyss, will make war with them, and overcome them, and slay them. 8 And their dead bodies [lie] upon the broadway of the great city, the which is called, spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where, their Lord also was crucified.​

Is this wild beast mentioned here an animal we find in the animal kingdom? or a sign, a symbol, a metaphor for something else?
If then something obviously is not to be taken literally, then it must be interpreted. In this case, the book of Revelation contains its own decipher code. Unfortunately, not all take such metaphor and interpret these as they should; instead, they take them literally. Why do you think we have so many denominations!

In other cases, even in Revelation, the wild beasts are to be taken literally:

Revelation 6:8 . . .. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.​

IMO, it is fairly simple to determine which is which.

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I'm unfamiliar with this "decipher code." Is it the hyphen? If there's a hyphenated word, that means interpret?

Can you post a link to this decipher code? The Bible I read didn't have an appendix.

Please read the file at this link:>Earth's age by the Bible<

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I'm sorry. I asked for evidence. What you provided me was an interpretation. "Old" and "everlasting" =/=ₙ 42,000 years.

I guess my logic machine and yours differ.
God wanted the two to feel they were related. What better way than doing it this way.

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So you're speaking intelligently about what God wanted when he created Eve? Please tell me how you know what God wanted.

Grandliseur said:

Happily deluded. Hope your reality doesn't come crashing down on you someday.

Your explanation of a period when times were balmy warm is actually funny with the large number of deep frozen animals:

quoting last post:"
"Also, try to explain how in the deep North of the globe, in most areas it seems, we find remains of animals deep frozen whose meat still is edible at times and whose stomach contents is fresh. How could the entire globe deep freeze all animals in such an instant?"

"Animals fall into frozen ravines fairly often."
​

And as I have said many times, and you now also: there is . . .

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Male Mammoths Died in ‘Silly Ways’ More Often Than Females, Study Finds

Grandliseur said:

The problem is not hiding. The problem again comes down to this world against the Bible's Inspiration. There is no contest.

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Yes, the choice comes down to looking at the evidence or not. If faith trumps evidence, there can be no debate because faith isn't debatable.

But you are also right: there is no contest.

People who reject the Bible will only hurt themselves, but it is their right to reject it, and mine to accept it.

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While those who accept Biblical 'morality' are actively attempting to hurt others by denying them basic rights.

How many times have Bible critics been wrong? There is never ever any apology from these worshipers of satan.
Please look at this link. It tells us some of the claims scholars made against the Bible:
The Bible Critics Were Wrong

The reason for damning such Bible criticism should be clear. Those who believe their claims loose their way to salvation. Thus the teachers of Higher and Lower Bible Criticism are guilty in a sense of murder.

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And there it is. Anyone who actually uses their brains to investigate the Bible and find it to be unconvincing are murderers. Sorry, but I prefer the Tree of Knowledge.

whirlingmerc said:

Since Moses spoke face to face with God over 40 years and was the writer of the first five books, which include Genesis, I would say no part is the stuff of myth.

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I don't even know where to start with this one.

Grandliseur said:

Believers take what is meant to be taken literally literally; unbelievers take whatever they like and run with it as they like.

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Well, that's not true. Believers take things both literally and metaphorically. IMO, "unbelievers" take all of it literally, and therefore they can't believe it any of it.

To me the cause of this is the belief that all of it should be taken literally. If it's all supposed to be factual and literal "accounts", then all it takes is one single error for the entire structure to collapse like a house of cards. Fundamentalism creates Neo-Atheism. In other words, they toss out the Baby with the bathwater because they are told they have to believe there is no bathwater at all by those too afraid to come to terms with their own errors of belief.

Grandliseur said:

Jesus surely took the account of Adam and Eve literally since that was the reason he came;

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But what is "true" about the story (not account) of Adam and Eve? Is it that they were actual historical figures who existed as actual individuals in the literal sense? Or are they "true" in the sense of what they symbolically represent about us? I believe it is the latter, not the former. So understanding this, you would say Jesus came because of the real human condition that the imaginary figures of Adam and Eve represent. They didn't need to be real individuals for the truth of what they represent to be real.

Grandliseur said:

Revelation has symbolic language intermixed with literal language.

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Even literal language is symbolic. It's how we interpret it that give it meaning.

Grandliseur said:

Its interpretation is found in various places, and perhaps some parts still await to be revealed.

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Its interpretation is found in the individual doing the interpreting. The parts that still await to be revealed is simply a matter of us changing as individuals so our maturing understanding is able to come up with a new way to interpret the same old passages. That's how it's always been.

Grandliseur said:

Each person shall be judged according to their works and according to how they treat the Gospel of Christ.

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Are you suggesting we will be judged according to how we interpret scripture? That's a pretty serious problem if we are! In fact, I'd say that view in itself runs contrary to the Gospel. You are saved by faith, not by doctrinal beliefs.

Grandliseur said:

Judgment will be coming to all believer or not.

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Judgement happens in every second of our lives. It's called karma.

SalixIncendium said:

Which begs the question, if one of the largest religious institutions in the world that uses the Bible conveys that there are parts of the Bible that should not be taken literally, and that they are "mythological," who has the authority to decide what parts of the Bible are to be taken literally and which ones are "stories told for religious purposes?"

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In a sense, we all have the authority to take it however we want. What we do with it is what matters, not how we think about it.

But it seems like your question is more about religious authorities who set standards of belief for those who are parts of their organizations. The answer to that is really a matter of organizational hierarchies. And that can range anywhere from being elected by a council of bishops, to some dude believing God gave him a personal revelation of the truth to tell his congregation of 13 followers. The answer then to "who has the authority?" is then "whoever we give the authority to."

SalixIncendium said:

I'm unfamiliar with this "decipher code." Is it the hyphen? If there's a hyphenated word, that means interpret?

Can you post a link to this decipher code? The Bible I read didn't have an appendix.

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That is why it is fun to study the Bible, it can take a long time to get a handle on some things.
For example, the beasts in Revelation, what are they. Opinions vary, but why? Here Jesus taught us something, first though, we read in the NT how Paul said,
Now, Jesus said,
So, we have the fact, Biblical fact, that Holy Scripture is inspired by God, and next, it can only be understood by means of Holy Spirit in regard to many things. Some things you just need to read, to study, to correlate with each other to understand, but usually only believers do that, and in this we have the pickle.

So, what do the beasts in Revelation symbolize? Well, some of the Bible's content may be coded; however, it decodes itself in many cases, if you study and take notes.
Beast:
A chapter that mentions a lot of beasts is found in chapter 13. Many find it nothing but nonsense; however, these are not believers and do not search for the decoding material.
Partial Decoding material for beasts of Revelation
According to this decoding material, the heads of the beasts refer to seven nations, and the horns refer to the kings of these nations.

As to the details of Revelation, it becomes very complex, but this little explanation shows how we can understand what is what. The woman refers to a religious rulership, governing the kings of the beast she is riding.

SalixIncendium said:

I'm sorry. I asked for evidence. What you provided me was an interpretation.

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We were not discussing the age of the earth, though my file did address this subject. The point in having you read this was to understand that the Days of Genesis 1 cannot be 24 hour days, and in this, the scriptural evidence showing how the minimum length for one of the Terra-forming days, or, Days of God, is at least 7000 years was provided. I didn't promise anything else.

As to your last point and quote of that post, I don't even think I need to answer that. It seems you simply want to disagree with things, and not learn.
Nonetheless, when Adam said,
You don't have to be a genius to understand that this was what God wanted, but perhaps I am since others do not seem to get it.
I have to make a note of this in my non-existent diary. 'Today, I became a genius! Dec, 2017'

Polymath257 said:

Male Mammoths Died in ‘Silly Ways’ More Often Than Females, Study Finds

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Not surprised. Humans probably don't differ in this.

whirlingmerc said:

Since Moses spoke face to face with God over 40 years and was the writer of the first five books, which include Genesis, I would say no part is the stuff of myth. In fact the attention to details and places and times is not at all consistent with the literature style of myth.

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This a claim without any supporting evidence. The evidence demonstrates that the Pentateuch was compiled, edited and redacted from different sources including Babylonian, Canaanite, and Ugarite texts and legends about ~700-600 BCE. There are absolutely no known texts of the Pentateuch that exist prior to this period.

Second problem is the Hebrew language is a Canaanite language, and the vocabulary and language structure of Hebrew in the Pentateuch has distinctive Canaanite characteristics particularly in the Creation stories. Also the book of Psalms also contains distinct Canaanite material including polytheistic references. The earliest know Paleo-Hebrew/Canaanite test dates only ~1000-900 BCE, and these are rare. The Hebrew written did not exist until ~700-600 BCE.

God may allow superficial similarities in some ways to prepare the world for Jesus to come
'in the fullness of time'

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Anecdotal claim based on religious belief.

Genesis was not myth, rather a "Myth Buster"
quote

Not Just Another Myth
Is there any merit to the idea that Genesis was written as myth, like Ancient Near Eastern myths? While some details are similar, they are told in a style that highlights the contrast between pagan myths and historical reality.

Superficial Similarities

• The Hebrew word deep in Genesis 1:2 sounds like the word for the goddess Tiamat of the Ancient Near Eastern creation myths.
• Both have waters above and beneath separated by a firmament.
• Both have light before sun, moon, and stars.
• Both describe mankind’s failure to please deity.
• Both refer to plants that confer immortality.
• Both mention a serpent.
• Both describe a global flood.

Profound Differences

• Battle elements. Genesis does not envision creation as a war of the gods.
• Pantheistic elements. Genesis does not talk about natural elements as gods.1
• Creative activity as sexual activity. Genesis does not describe God’s creation in this way.
• Poetic language. Genesis does not have “synonymous parallelism” (restating the same idea in two ways) in every description.
• Reference to time. Genesis speaks of creation “in the beginning” and “days,” contrary to myths, which speak more about seasons.2

unquote
from
Genesis—The Original Myth Buster

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The facts are that the myths evolved in the different Canaanite and Babylonian cultures of the Middle East, and the major similarities are the 'superficial similarities' you listed.

All the text myths of other cultures of the time pre-existed any Hebrew text by hundreds of years. What you cannot provide is any Hebrew text of the Pentateuch or any OT text dating prior to ~700-600 BCE.

whirlingmerc said:

historical reality.

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So something that is pre history contains 'historical reality'?

Grandliseur said:

That is why it is fun to study the Bible, it can take a long time to get a handle on some things.
For example, the beasts in Revelation, what are they. Opinions vary, but why? Here Jesus taught us something, first though, we read in the NT how Paul said,

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.​

Now, Jesus said,

John 14: 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.​

So, we have the fact, Biblical fact, that Holy Scripture is inspired by God, and next, it can only be understood by means of Holy Spirit in regard to many things. Some things you just need to read, to study, to correlate with each other to understand, but usually only believers do that, and in this we have the pickle.

So, what do the beasts in Revelation symbolize? Well, some of the Bible's content may be coded; however, it decodes itself in many cases, if you study and take notes.
Beast:
A chapter that mentions a lot of beasts is found in chapter 13. Many find it nothing but nonsense; however, these are not believers and do not search for the decoding material.
Partial Decoding material for beasts of Revelation

Revelation 17:9 “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.

Revelation 17: 12 “And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.​

According to this decoding material, the heads of the beasts refer to seven nations, and the horns refer to the kings of these nations.

As to the details of Revelation, it becomes very complex, but this little explanation shows how we can understand what is what. The woman refers to a religious rulership, governing the kings of the beast she is riding.

​

We were not discussing the age of the earth, though my file did address this subject. The point in having you read this was to understand that the Days of Genesis 1 cannot be 24 hour days, and in this, the scriptural evidence showing how the minimum length for one of the Terra-forming days, or, Days of God, is at least 7000 years was provided. I didn't promise anything else.

As to your last point and quote of that post, I don't even think I need to answer that. It seems you simply want to disagree with things, and not learn.
Nonetheless, when Adam said,

Genesis 2: 23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man this one was taken.”​

You don't have to be a genius to understand that this was what God wanted, but perhaps I am since others do not seem to get it.
I have to make a note of this in my non-existent diary. 'Today, I became a genius! Dec, 2017'

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So to summarize our exchange here...

Take literally = interpret harmoniously = decode = interpret some more = take literally = @Grandliseur is a genius.

I'll just tuck this one away in my 'cool story' box.

Windwalker said:

Fundamentalism creates Neo-Atheism. In other words, they toss out the Baby with the bathwater because they are told they have to believe there is no bathwater at all by those too afraid to come to terms with their own errors of belief.

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At times, the teaching of the Trinity and torment in hell does this.

Windwalker said:

They didn't need to be real individuals for the truth of what they represent to be real.

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Not true. Without the story being true, there is no truth to Christ and his ransom, his coming down from heaven, his resurrection back to heaven, etc.

Windwalker said:

Even literal language is symbolic. It's how we interpret it that give it meaning.

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Right, everything is interpreted; however, some things are taken as historical fact, other as stories, parables, or fiction. The material in the Bible is not difficult so that it is easy to understand what is intended.

Windwalker said:

Its interpretation is found in the individual doing the interpreting.

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While that is true, it is also a fact that people who do not have a background on material they read, in many cases come to the totally wrong conclusions. That is why we have teachers, and if not, we have people who have studied the material and may direct us to a correct conclusion.

Windwalker said:

Are you suggesting we will be judged according to how we interpret scripture?

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For sure.

Windwalker said:

That's a pretty serious problem if we are! In fact, I'd say that view in itself runs contrary to the Gospel. You are saved by faith, not by doctrinal beliefs.

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Really!
In Matthew above, we see how the teachers of law interpreted the law in ways that brought condemnation upon them, clearly damning them by them being told "Woe to you" (in Luke above)

Thus the works we get judged for is also what we claim regarding the Word of God, the Holy Writ. If a person makes a mistake, the punishment is small, but if a person misleads people willfully as to what God is telling us, it is most likely a sin against the holy spirit, blasphemy.

Windwalker said:

You are saved by faith, not by doctrinal beliefs.

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So, this statement of yours is not what the scriptures teach. It is not empty faith, but faith with accurate knowledge. It is not faith in Buddha that saves me, etc.

As may be seen from this, accurate knowledge about the Gospel of Christ is somewhat demanded here. The Helter-Skelter ignorant faith may actually not lead to salvation.

SalixIncendium said:

So to summarize our exchange here...

Take literally = interpret harmoniously = decode = interpret some more = take literally = @Grandliseur is a genius.

I'll just tuck this one away in my 'cool story' box.

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Well, the genius part actually was your contribution. Thank you so much. I would never have gotten to that level without you. I only think of myself as of normal intelligence. Nonetheless, my Bible background is extensive.

But, others do what they want. I do what I can to let God guide me. Don't succeed many times.

SalixIncendium said:

I watched a debate between Richard Dawkins and Cardinal Pell last night in which Cardinal Pell professes that the Catholic Church views the story of the Garden of Eden as "...a beautiful, sophisticated, mythological account." and that "...it’s a religious story told for religious purposes."

Which begs the question, if one of the largest religious institutions in the world that uses the Bible conveys that there are parts of the Bible that should not be taken literally, and that they are "mythological," who has the authority to decide what parts of the Bible are to be taken literally and which ones are "stories told for religious purposes?"

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the question is misplaced....

you decide to believe is not up to an institution.
it's up to you

ultimately what you hold to be true and wise, you carry with you into the next life

after your last breath, you might (if you are able ) stand from your carcass
and heaven will be there to see what stands from the dust

the question will be.....What do you believe?

your answer will make all the difference

SalixIncendium said:

So to summarize our exchange here...

Take literally = interpret harmoniously = decode = interpret some more = take literally = @Grandliseur is a genius.

I'll just tuck this one away in my 'cool story' box.

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SalixIncendium said:

Take literally

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I think you need to study a lot harder. Laughing like a donkey here.

You forgot that some things are easy to understand when they should be taken metaphorically.
Perhaps you are a lost cause. Just give up and become an atheist. It is so much easier, all things make themselves, and come from nothing.
I stopped doing dishes years ago because they will wash themselves.

the book of John is GREATLY different from the other three gospels

literally....the argument has no resolve