Scott C.
Just one guy
Once again, you are obviously not both reading and comprehending my posts.
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Morality and Non-Believers ("Law" of Reciprocity)
- Thread starter NewGuyOnTheBlock
- Start date
Once again, you are obviously not both reading and comprehending my posts.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
You have completely moved away from the OP--can scripture determine what is moral for someone.
You are misunderstanding that if the Bible said purple is moral and yellow isn't, that would define morality for some.
As an aside, it's not spitting into the wind or mythos to logically explain the need for Christianity:
1. No one is moral enough to be a citizen in a utopia.
2. I'm a Christian, and I'm still not ready for utopia.
3. Jesus took my guilt, my punishment, my shame--but being perfect, He switched places with me on the cross to perfect me.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
How did I determine that atheists disobey commandments like "One God; no coveting?"
I'm defining morality per the OP. Read it.
I'm aware there are moral systems that pre-date the Bible. Sure.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Have you read the scriptures? How can you be wholly unaware that the entire scriptures are filled with imprecations to be righteous and not unrighteous, good and not evil and etc.
How can you be wholly unaware that the two biggest influences on western morality and ethics were the Greek philosophers and the teachings of the Holy Bible? What is your purpose in asking me such facile questions?
How can you be ignorant of the fact that if the biblical God exists, His commands to worship Him and obey Him ARE morality?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
That's not what I asked - I asked how you determined that the 10 commandments "define morality".
The OP doesn't define morality purely by the 10 commandments.
So the 10 commandments cannot be the basis of ALL morality, and are therefore not a Universal yardstick by which to define morality, so your observation is asinine. It's like me saying that you're not moral because you don't adhere to the Prime Directive.
What? First you say that most of us "live that kind of life", that is a moral life, and then you claim the world lacks any semblance of morals?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Once again, you’ve severely edited my post. Why do you do that?
So there’s no heaven or hell then? If that’s the case, this makes even less sense than I originally thought.
How about the actual person that was harmed? In the case we were discussing, that would be a child that was raped. How does that play into this?
God can punish people after they’ve carried out a heinous action against another person, so in that sense “He” can intervene without us turning into robots. But if “he” intervenes right before, or during the rape of a child, that would turn us into robots? Can you explain how that makes sense?
And God just sat back and let Satan do what he wanted. Just like in the child rape example.
So God is only responsible for all the good stuff, but he’s not responsible for the rules he created or the bad stuff, which is actually Satan’s fault. So, is Satan more powerful than God then?
Regardless, those people (and animals) lost their lives for no good reason. They hadn’t done anything terrible to anyone else. They weren't even being punished for the actions of someone else. They were punished because Satan challenged God, like this is all just some kind of game. And you want me to believe that’s moral and that I cannot be moral without this God? Pardon me for saying so, but that’s ludicrous.
God made this fabulous world for us to live in, but he lets some a**hole rule over it. How moral of him.
You told me that without God, there is no morality to adhere to. But it sounds like with God, morality depends on the whims of said God and we’re just supposed to do what we’re told. I don’t think that’s a system of morality at all. It’s just following orders. And apparently, even if you follow those orders to a “T”, you can still be punished anyway.
Not sure if you’re aware or not, but there were wars fought over the actions of Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, etc. There was a lot more action taken by the Allies during those wars than anything your God did to stop any of it.
Let me know when your God is going to punish them.
I don’t see your God doing anything about any of the things you mentioned. So it looks like we’re on our own down here. So all we’re left with is to do our best to see that people are held responsible for their actions, and to punish them accordingly. Unless and until some God shows up to do something about it. … I’m not holding my breath on that one.
Pardon?
I see that you completely edited out/skipped over my point about God answering prayers as it pertains to your assertion that God intervening in parts of our lives would turn us into robots. I wonder why.
So there’s no heaven or hell then? If that’s the case, this makes even less sense than I originally thought.
How about the actual person that was harmed? In the case we were discussing, that would be a child that was raped. How does that play into this?
God can punish people after they’ve carried out a heinous action against another person, so in that sense “He” can intervene without us turning into robots. But if “he” intervenes right before, or during the rape of a child, that would turn us into robots? Can you explain how that makes sense?
And God just sat back and let Satan do what he wanted. Just like in the child rape example.
So God is only responsible for all the good stuff, but he’s not responsible for the rules he created or the bad stuff, which is actually Satan’s fault. So, is Satan more powerful than God then?
Regardless, those people (and animals) lost their lives for no good reason. They hadn’t done anything terrible to anyone else. They weren't even being punished for the actions of someone else. They were punished because Satan challenged God, like this is all just some kind of game. And you want me to believe that’s moral and that I cannot be moral without this God? Pardon me for saying so, but that’s ludicrous.
God made this fabulous world for us to live in, but he lets some a**hole rule over it. How moral of him.
You told me that without God, there is no morality to adhere to. But it sounds like with God, morality depends on the whims of said God and we’re just supposed to do what we’re told. I don’t think that’s a system of morality at all. It’s just following orders. And apparently, even if you follow those orders to a “T”, you can still be punished anyway.
I oppose the actions of all of those people because they’ve brought harm to a great many people. I bet if you asked a bunch of atheists (or basically just anybody), they would agree with me. And we don’t need any God to oppose them either.
Not sure if you’re aware or not, but there were wars fought over the actions of Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, etc. There was a lot more action taken by the Allies during those wars than anything your God did to stop any of it.
Let me know when your God is going to punish them.
I don’t see your God doing anything about any of the things you mentioned. So it looks like we’re on our own down here. So all we’re left with is to do our best to see that people are held responsible for their actions, and to punish them accordingly. Unless and until some God shows up to do something about it. … I’m not holding my breath on that one.
Pardon?
I see that you completely edited out/skipped over my point about God answering prayers as it pertains to your assertion that God intervening in parts of our lives would turn us into robots. I wonder why.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
What's moral about putting your guilt, shame, responsibility for your actions onto someone else? To me, the moral thing to do is to take responsibility for one's actions and do whatever needs to be done to the parties that have been harmed to correct for that action.
Yes, I have read the Bible. I’m asking you questions to clarify your position and beliefs.
The Bible defines morality as a just a big long list of “Do this” or “Don’t do this.” That’s not a system of morality, in my opinion. Someone who is just following orders isn’t exercising morality, rather, they’re just doing what they’re told.
Like I said above, I’m trying to get an understanding of your positions and beliefs on the subject. Western morality is based on a ton of things. Logic and reason included.
The Biblical God apparently things a lot of things are moral that I find repugnant, like slavery for example.
So to you, what makes the commandments in the Bible moral, is the simple fact that you think God dictated them and so they must be moral because God is moral. That sounds very circular to me. What if morals exist outside of God?
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Do most not have the ordinary 'Joe' life that most of us resemble, a domicile, a family, a job, or studying at school, taking care of family members, dogs, cats, etc.
Yet, what is the world like? Homeless whom we are told not to feed. None take care of. Drug problems, problems of poverty, war, genocide. The world spends how much on just one missile? Yet, if this was spent on poor nations, on giving farmers, coffee, cacao beans, etc., enough money to make it unnecessary for them to switch to drug farming, giving the nations of Africa and other places their due for the minerals, gold, rare elements, taken out of their countries with little benefit to their population - the world could be a lot more pleasant than it is now.
Look at the world's expenses for arms in one year, and tell me this is moral. Look at history, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, and even Europe's, the US. Was the treatment of Britain against its satellite nations really moral? Was what was done to China in the Opium wars just and moral? Was the treatment of the native population in the US just and moral when they just killed and took anything and everything they liked to take?
So, we have the individual who lives in his little bubble of reality and thinks he is a moral being and you have satan's world outside the bubble. Do you really approve of the way Hitler treated the Jews? Or, is this not where the world being ruled by satan is seen! Most Germans before the war had nothing against the Jews, I'll bet. So, again, it is the individual who lives commonly moral lives while the world at large is satan's.
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Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Don't quite get what I am doing that is upsetting you. Give me an example.
On death all become nothing, there is only destruction of the being.
God does not (in my understanding) cause anyone eternal pain in some kind of afterlife. Neither does anyone go to heaven. Please remember this teaching:
John 3: 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.
Once the kingdom is established on earth, a resurrection of the dead shall take place of those who are not considered wicked. A few, saints, shall rule with Christ and become spirit beings by resurrection being able to live in heaven, but these shall rule earth with Christ.
The best examples here are found in Jesus' miraculous cures while he was among us. He healed all matters of illnesses and resurrected the dead. As to mental anguish and memories, the following will tell you what you ask for:
Isaiah 65:17-18 17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, YOU people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating.. . .
Philippians 4:7 and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard YOUR hearts and YOUR mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7 and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard YOUR hearts and YOUR mental powers by means of Christ Jesus.
We have been told that the day and hour is none of our business; however, we are also told that in this life, while people live, God shall return their works on their own heads. It has yet to be a crime to be rich, the problem is how you got so rich perhaps. Nonetheless, everyone shall get as they deserve, me included. While the Christian may be forgiven his sins, not always assured, never will God forgo punishment for severe sins.
Romans 13:1-2 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. . . .
Romans 13: 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.
Romans 13: 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.
A joke!
Everyone suffers from this problem. I was physically abused as a young person. Still, he has answered many of my prayers.
The problem is - that if evil was not permitted, we would have to be robots. If evil was not permitted to be done by the wicked, how could God judge them?!
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I think it’s pretty obvious, but okay. Let’s use this post right here as an example.
This is a response to my post #147 in which I typed a total of 535 words.
Your response to me (this post) contains only 77 of the words that I typed in post #147.
So there’s no heaven or hell. Punishment from God comes in this lifetime. Is that right?
Your assertion is that god will punish rapists, murders, blasphemers, homosexuals, unruly children, burglars, etc. in this life, yes? So what did the starving children in Ethiopia do that was so terrible that they deserve to be punished with famine and death? What did the child in our example do to deserve to be raped? How do we know when God is punishing people, or that he’s punishing people at all, given that good people face hardships in life just as much as bad people do.
This does absolutely nothing to help a child that has been raped. Or the child that is starving to death right this moment.
Hmm, sounds made up to me.
Except that like I said above, it doesn’t seem like everybody gets what they deserve at all. So a child that is raped deserved it? A child that is starving deserves it?
Just about everyone experiences tragedy or hard times at some point in life; it’s just how life is. So are we all being punished by this God for something or only some of us or what? I mean, how do we know this at all? How do we determine who’s just having a hard time in life and who’s being punished for some action they may have taken?
My grandmother was the sweetest, most generous and kind person I’ve ever known. She never did a thing to harm a single human being in her entire life. She never even said a single negative word about another human being in the time that I knew her. Yet she died a horrible, slow and painful death that turned her into a completely different person (a person she would have been ashamed of) and the pain was unbearable to her. It was extremely difficult and heartbreaking taking care of her and watching her deteriorate in front of our eyes. In your view, she deserved that as payback for something she did in life?
I gotta say, from where I’m sitting, the more reasonable explanation seems to be that there isn’t some all-knowing and loving deity pulling the strings from behind the scenes and that life is just like this – a series of events that can help or hurt us, and we just have to deal with things as they come. Sometimes good things happen to bad people and sometimes bad things happen to good people. There’s no apparent rhyme or reason to any of it. All we can do is navigate the world as best we can with what we’ve got and do our best to make it a decent place to live for as many people as possible because it’s not going to be all sorted out by some God that is hiding somewhere out there meting out punishments and rewards.
Oh sorry, I guess I missed it.
I didn’t say anything about evil not being permitted. I’m trying to point out the double standard here.
On one hand, you say God can’t intervene when an evil action is taking place, like a rape or the Holocaust for example, because doing that would turn us into robots, though you didn’t explain how.
On the other hand, you think God answers prayers, thus changing the course of events based on what a person desires, which is pretty much the same thing as intervening to stop an evil action. (I should just point out again that the Tracie Harris quote I posted seems to be right on the mark here.) So why does the former example turn us into robots but not the latter? And what if a person in the former example is being raped and is praying for it to stop? And how does it make sense that God would say, cure you’re grandmother’s cancer, but not do something to stop a rape that is happening to a child who is praying for it to stop?
Again, this doesn’t make sense to me if there is a God, but does make sense to me if there isn’t one. And I don’t see what is so moral about any of the things you are talking about.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Who said that we know if it is God's punishment or the rule of this world by satan that is giving a person suffering; except in cases of famine that you mention. When we see the plights of poor nations, while the rich nations use trillions on armament, why do you even think to blame God!
Try to google how much a single cruise missile, a single fighter jet costs - and tell me that this is what and how the world should be doing things, instead of working as a global mutual assistance for mankind to live as humans and not as trash that is ignored and thrown away, who-cares - kind of thing.
We live in satan's rulership. God is permitting these things now because we told him to 'go fly a kite' and he did, he let us rule ourselves and suffer the consequences.
You seem to want us to tell God to - git, skat, get away from me, 'I will do what I like in my life' without consequences - so when problems happen you seem to want God to take us back as if we are small babies that should be permitted anything and everything. That is not how he works.
Self rule apart from God is apart from God. A divorce is a divorce, no more sex with that person, and a divorce from God, is no more theocracy, and no more help, no more of solving our problems. It shouldn't be hard to understand. Your individual wickedness will still get judgment, but at the moment, all creation is suffering because of our rebellion.
How do we determine who’s just having a hard time in life and who’s being punished for some action they may have taken?
Why do you think you would be privy to this kind of information?!
My grandmother was the sweetest, most generous and kind person I’ve ever known. She never did a thing to harm a single human being in her entire life. She never even said a single negative word about another human being in the time that I knew her. Yet she died a horrible, slow and painful death that turned her into a completely different person (a person she would have been ashamed of) and the pain was unbearable to her. It was extremely difficult and heartbreaking taking care of her and watching her deteriorate in front of our eyes. In your view, she deserved that as payback for something she did in life?
No, not at all. At the moment I have the same problem with my wife, and I feel as if I am in a hell of torment. In this system of things we grow old and suffer. That cannot be avoided.
There’s no apparent rhyme or reason to any of it. All we can do is navigate the world as best we can with what we’ve got and do our best to make it a decent place to live for as many people as possible because it’s not going to be all sorted out by some God that is hiding somewhere out there meting out punishments and rewards.
God may assists us when we pray, but the growing old and ill is not taken away. So, do what you said here, however, that is no reason to loose faith. After all, the faith of the Gospel of Christ is for a future promise.
The last part is more of the same. We were never promised that we would be protected in this world from suffering; in fact, the contrary is true. The promises is for the future. We still will get some help, but is it limited.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
If morality does not involve doing what you're told, then children are not moral agents. But rather, morality for children often involves doing what they're told rather than following their desires blindly!
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I didn't say the decalogue is the basis of all morality, but here is the basis of all morality:
Love God, love your neighbor as yourself--now go and do--perhaps you will find eternal life.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
If you're just doing what you're told without thinking about why the action is right or wrong, and if something is right or wrong simply because someone says it is, then I'd say that is not a system of morality. It serves the interests of some external authority, rather than the actual people who are directly affected by it. Under such a "system" slavery or murder are right or wrong just because someone dictated that they are. And if said authority figure changes its mind, then morality changes as well. A more coherent system of morality involves the assessment of the consequences of outcomes of certain actions and how those actions affect our own lives and the lives of other people in the world because we are all human beings that share similar interests, desires and feelings. This is why we often teach children morality by asking them how they would feel if someone treated them the way they have treated another person.
I asked you at least two questions that you didn't answer. Would you mind answering them?
What's moral about putting your guilt, shame, responsibility for your actions onto someone else? To me, the moral thing to do is to take responsibility for one's actions and do whatever needs to be done to the parties that have been harmed to correct for that action.
So to you, what makes the commandments in the Bible moral, is the simple fact that you think God dictated them and so they must be moral because God is moral. That sounds very circular to me. What if morals exist outside of God?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
So God is responsible for punishing us sometimes for the things we do, and sometimes people are punished for no apparent reason, but then sometimes we're punished just because Satan exists, but then also life is just hard sometimes, and sometimes prayers are answered and sometimes they're not but God can't intervene into our affairs because then we would become robots, except when he feels like answering our prayers, and we can't ever really know which is what or if up is down.
Like I said before, none of this makes any actual sense. Delving deeper into it has made it even more nonsensical. And I don't find it particularly moral either.
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ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
So the basis of all morality is self-interest?
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Your questions about what and how things tick are about things we have no true inkling about how works. Thus, I do not go about worrying about whether satan is after me, though in a few cases I have seen his finger. God cannot be stopped whatever he does.
Our faith does not promise escape from old age and illness in this system of things. It is therefore very simple, you live your life as you can, and when I encounter serious problems I need help with and cannot get from other source, I ask God for help. If he gives it, problem solved, if not, I go on until I die. On many occasions I have received help after prayer, and in one case, a clear case of help was given without prayer because I couldn't know what was going to happen.
You just do the best you can, and when receiving help give thanks. The edicts are clear, obedience means that help may be given. But, more importantly, it gives hope for the future as promised.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I didn't say that or imply it. What I said was:
"I didn't say the decalogue is the basis of all morality, but here is the basis of all morality:
Love God, love your neighbor as yourself--now go and do--perhaps you will find eternal life."
I'm guiding you in finding morality and understanding basic Christian morality. As a helpful side benefit, as you realize you are immoral--since you and I do not love God or our neighbors supremely or even as much as we love ourselves, we may repent of being immoral (that is, rethink our morality, grope for God, find Him, find eternal life).
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Answer 1: There is nothing moral about transferring my guilt and shame to Christ. The atonement's motivation isn't morality but love for God's creatures, man. Indeed, since God hates when the innocent suffer, making Christ suffer is morally repugnant. I've noticed how atheists constantly say it is not moral for humans to transfer their sin to Christ, without ever once complaining or even considering the immorality of the innocent Christ receiving our sin, guilt and punishment. Perhaps if you would find moral outrage in the innocent Jesus being beaten and tortured to death for your guilt . . .
Answer 2: It would be circular if morals exist outside of God, but God fills all in all. He created what we call math, logic and morality for humans. Human morals are not God's morals. He is the standard bearer.