The United States Now Recognizes Jerusalem As The Capital Of Israel

columbus said:

Maintain the status quo until there is an advantage to change that outweighs the costs. Trump is knuckling under to the warhawks and religious weirdos.

I still haven't heard of an advantage that justifies so much as the moving expense.
Tom

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With all due respect, I think that the question is the problem. It presumes that the status quo is both useful and logical. Trump's first argument was that the status quo, maintained, despite the stated American legal position, for 22 years has not had the intended effect. Therefore continuing a practice which is contrary to stated American policy with no return on that behavior is not a reasonable course to continue. So "advantage" or not, the goal of argument one is to change an approach.

The second is about logic. Is there any other case where America does not recognize that a country with which it has good relations has a capital? Must it be to America's advantage to recognize a capital, or might it simply be the diplomatically proper course? If we are worried about safety, we have to remember a few things -- one, that there have been acts against Americans and American buildings in other countries and this has not motivated any change in the recognition of a capital there. Is Havana no longer the capital of Cuba?

Another is that the embassy is not moving tomorrow so any worry about the safety of an embassy seems misplaced. Sadly, both Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are well within range of the rockets fired by Israel's enemies, and both have been sites of terrorist attacks. Did America ever decide that it was unsafe to call Beirut the capital of Lebanon? Or move the embassy out?

While the move will simplify the lives of many Americans (who will not have to commute between the embassy and the seat of the Israeli government), simplify the relationships between the governments, recognize the fact that Israel has a capital and resolve (in my best guess) certain court cases which hinge on America's stated position on the matter (I can't wait to see how it plays out in cases like this), trying to see it purely in the light of "is it to America's advantage" demands a standard which is not applied to other countries.

BTW, I am avoiding all arguments which factor in the American political machine, Trump's relationship with potential voters or the distraction index. All are relevant but all look at this decision from a completely different angle, as a cynical expression of an American politician's personal agenda and not as a move consistent with American worldwide foreign relations.

columbus said:

Worse than that, and much more plausible, he is doing it because Putin wants him to do it.
Tom

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Okay, you're going to have to back this statement up with maybe a fact or two.

BSM1 said:

Okay, you're going to have to back this statement up with maybe a fact or two.

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Ok.
Trump and many of his top appointees have had many meetings and connections with Russians. Many of them were sufficiently illicit and secret to cause those people to lie about them.
I am including Trump in that category. When he tweeted that Obama had wiretapped Trump's campaign headquarters during the campaign, Trump knew that the truth was very different. The FBI, under Comey, was conducting a legitimate investigation into the doings of Paul Manafort. His behavior has since resulted in charges. Behavior that Trump knew about when he hired him to run the campaign, even if he didn't know about the FBI investigation.
Tom

Also keep in mind the US Consulate in Jerusalem directly reports to the State Department and not to the US Embassy in Tel Aviv. So the Consulate is already treated like an Embassy for all purposes and thus we de facto treat Jerusalem like Israeli capital.

columbus said:

Ok.
Trump and many of his top appointees have had many meetings and connections with Russians. Many of them were sufficiently illicit and secret to cause those people to lie about them.
I am including Trump in that category. When he tweeted that Obama had wiretapped Trump's campaign headquarters during the campaign, Trump knew that the truth was very different. The FBI, under Comey, was conducting a legitimate investigation into the doings of Paul Manafort. His behavior has since resulted in charges. Behavior that Trump knew about when he hired him to run the campaign, even if he didn't know about the FBI investigation.
Tom

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This is by no means proof of any collusion between anyone, let alone Trump. This is all assumptions on your part to validate your totally partisan political view. You hate Trump? Fine. But come up with something real instead of appearing like you are simply part of the hive mentality.

columbus said:

I believe you were joking, but I wasn't.

If Trump's useless grandstanding serves to keep up the conflict between the USA and everybody in the middle east (except Israeli hardliners), that will serve Putin's goal of making Russians the regional superpower. It's a small thing, but a beginning. Putin obviously wanted Trump to be president for some reason.

People keep asking the question "How did Putin help Trump win the Presidency?" ,when the more important question is "Why did Putin help Trump?"
Tom

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It's good for people to ask questions.
It's bad for them to invent answers.

columbus said:

Maintain the status quo until there is an advantage to change that outweighs the costs. Trump is knuckling under to the warhawks and religious weirdos.

I still haven't heard of an advantage that justifies so much as the moving expense.
Tom

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Well, it creates a distraction from the Mueller investigation...

Flankerl said:

Jerusalem Embassy Act - Wikipedia

You are welcome

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The act itself was controversial as a Congressional overreach on executive authority so it was modified to rest final authority in the President to suspend implementation as long as he decides it is in the national security of the USA to do so.

So accurately what trump did was to certify that the national security issues were no longer a bar to implementation.

I think that's a stupid decision from a geo-political perspective and will cause no end of suffering in the region for both sides.

sunrise123 said:

I think that's a stupid decision from a geo-political perspective and will cause no end of suffering in the region for both sides.

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Prove it.

sunrise123 said:

The act itself was controversial as a Congressional overreach on executive authority so it was modified to rest final authority in the President to suspend implementation as long as he decides it is in the national security of the USA to do so.

So accurately what trump did was to certify that the national security issues were no longer a bar to implementation.

I think that's a stupid decision from a geo-political perspective and will cause no end of suffering in the region for both sides.

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I'm still waiting for anyone to come up with the official Israeli position on this? Did they WANT the US to move it's embassy, or what

BSM1 said:

Prove it.

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Why would you doubt it? Don't all the foreign policy experts and military leaders, here and abroad, agree with this assessment?

Valjean said:

Why would you doubt it? Don't all the foreign policy experts and military leaders, here and abroad, agree with this assessment?

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And the Palestinians are calling for another Intefada.

sunrise123 said:

And the Palestinians are calling for another Intefada.

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Just to show how committed that are to peaceful relations with Israel. Yup, makes sense.

sunrise123 said:

And the Palestinians are calling for another Intefada.

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And haven't such crises been known to bolster weak presidencies in the past?
Nothing like a good crisis to rally people around the flag -- or president.

Valjean said:

Why would you doubt it? Don't all the foreign policy experts and military leaders, here and abroad, agree with this assessment?

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Don't know. Why don't you list "...all the foreign policy experts and military leaders..." in the world with what their assessment is. Also, show some indication that proves your point about increased strife.

sunrise123 said:

The act itself was controversial as a Congressional overreach on executive authority so it was modified to rest final authority in the President to suspend implementation as long as he decides it is in the national security of the USA to do so.

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The entire charade is controversial because a foreign country can't dictate where another country puts its capital.
Absolutely ridiculous concept which you can only find in one country.

sunrise123 said:

So accurately what trump did was to certify that the national security issues were no longer a bar to implementation.

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They aren't. Jerusalem isn't less safe than Tel Aviv.

Just wondering these "disagreements/violence " have been going on for decades. I can't see why it would be any different whether the U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel or not.

sunrise123 said:

And the Palestinians are calling for another Intefada.

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Must be a day with a vowel in it

Armoured said:

Well, it creates a distraction from the Mueller investigation...

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Yep, and Trump & Associates do this a lot. He also wants to look strong, thus making self-serving decisions like this that especially appeases his base.

As I mentioned before on this thread, this unilateral action removes us as being a possible mediator in the Arab/Israeli conflict, plus it will make it much more difficult for us to put together any coalition. Also, the E.U. has said this is a bad move, so how much will they be cooperative with us in the future? They hated "Cowboy Bush", and this new guy is worse.

Looking at it from a strictly U.S. strategic perspective, it's a bad move all around, and I don't see where it's going to help the Israelis, even though they've wanted this for a very long time and for good reason.

columbus said:

People keep asking the question "How did Putin help Trump win the Presidency?" ,when the more important question is "Why did Putin help Trump?"

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The principle reason appears to be to get Trump to lift sanctions against Russia.

Also, to destabilize America further and to undermine the democratic process on principle, and in so doing, to cause Americans to distrust the election process. Of course, that only works in a country that isn't unconscious.

Putin seems to have succeeded at undermining the election process, but most people appear to be clueless about it. so I doubt that he succeeded there (most Americans don't seem to know who their vice president is or how many branches there are to their federal government, so they're certainly mostly oblivious to that matter).

And of course, Putin failed miserably at the first purpose - lifting or easing sanctions using his puppet. The common wisdom is that Putin mistook Trump, a marionette, for a ventriloquist's dummy, and has been trying in vain to operate the latter's mouth parts via his rectum.

Ouch!