What Part of Us Survives Temporal Death?

Jainarayan said:

Catholic theology says the body and soul will be resurrected. They will be made whole and reunited for resurrection. That was always the reason against cremation, though to me that doesn't make sense... a cremated body should still be rehydrated and restored, no?

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Guy Threepwood said:

Of course, but then your rationale for there being no afterlife, relies on the existence of some unknown spontaneous universe/life creating mechanism... how safe a bet is that do you think?

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I'm not betting on anything.

I take your point, Egyptians for example, mummification went beyond just respecting the body, it was seen as crucial to keep it in tact for the afterlife-

I'm with you, I see no reason God would require it, since physical remains are not always available anyway.. hmm, think I'll switch to a cheerier thread!

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Yeah, I wonder about what happens to those who die on a sinking ship. Their remains end up at the bottom of the ocean, where there's no possibility of going through the standard preparation and funeral rites of whatever religion they're part of. Do their souls remain trapped in Davy Jones' Locker?

SalixIncendium said:

Where in the body or mind are these astral/mental bodies contained? Can these eventually be known by science?

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These subtle bodies interpenetrate the entire physical body. They occupy the same space in our way of thinking.

In this worldview there are multiple planes of nature; called physical, astral, mental, etc. 'Higher' planes are at vibratory rates and in dimensions not directly detectable by grosser planes. They higher planes can not be directly detected by our physical senses and instruments but they can be known by those with more gifted psychic sensing where the sense of the interpenetrating subtle bodies are involved.

Science one day will probably understand more of this and know more. At this time science has a materialist bent. However current science does tell us that 95% of the matter/energy in the universe is not directly detectable by our physical senses and instruments (so-called dark matter).

SalixIncendium said:

Where are these memories contained during life if not in their minds?

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It would be in the mind considering that the mind is not the brain. The brain, from this idea, is where the current set of memories etc are manifesting but the mind persists from life to life.

SalixIncendium said:

I'm not sure if you're looking for my personal view or if you are asking in general, so I'll give you both.

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As it seems to be such a widely held belief across most religious faiths, it is interesting to me as a Christian to dig deeper into why that is the case.....so both is fine. Thank you.

My personal view is that our perceived reality is a dream or illusion of an absolute reality. Temporal reality is a projection of the Absolute manifested as the Self. Death is merely this manifestation awaking from this dream of reality, just as you wake up from a sleeping dream in this temporal reality. Where does this idea come from? Sense experience.

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That scenario seems so...."out there" to me. More like something I'd see in a Matrix movie. Why does our existence have to be something involving dreams and illusions....Why can't it be more real....more simple?

Do you have a Christian background, or have you always entertained this belief?

The way the Bible describes things matter is real.....Like the universe, we are composed of matter and have senses to provide the data from our reality....and a brain to interpret the data....and it is a reality shared with others. I don't see our own human life as a collective illusion.....why would people assume that it is? What is the "sense experience" that you speak of?

Us human beings who share this planet with other material beings, live and die, and have been doing so since the Creator put life on this planet. But the Bible tells us that only human life was designed to go on indefinitely. We alone have no acceptance of death programmed into our psyche. There is an inbuilt expectation to go on living....eternally youthful....eternally healthy.....eternally happy, sharing life experiences with others in a loving atmosphere. That was the programming we were created with because that was the life we were supposed to live.
But we lost it. The Bible explains why, and what the consequences were as a result. It also tells us how it is restored. That, I believe is our reality.

In general, this article offers views from multiple perspectives: Afterlife - Wikipedia

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Yes, it is a very widely held expectation that death cannot be the end of life. Having been created to live forever, we fight all notions of a temporary existence, even into old age. To lose one's life prematurely is seen as a tragedy....yet it happens all too often. Even people who live to a ripe old age, if they have a good quality of life, do not want to die.

Is it possible to lose life?....I mean really lose it, as in having no existence?

The human mind is consoled by the thought that death isn't the end of life, yet, even though the Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul (consciousness) that survives death, many Bible believers assume it.

I believe that it is based on our human programming to go on living.....age is a state of body, not a state of mind.
The older I get, the more I realize that I have not aged at all in my head, but the mirror tells me that my body is well aware of how old I am.

I find the Bible's explanation so much more appealing and logical than other ideas that tell us little about where we fit into the big picture.....and it all makes such perfect sense.

Do you have a big picture SalixIncendium?

Jainarayan said:

Catholic theology says the body and soul will be resurrected. They will be made whole and reunited for resurrection. That was always the reason against cremation, though to me that doesn't make sense... a cremated body should still be rehydrated and restored, no?

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The Bible does teach full bodily resurrection......but not the way Roman Catholicism does.

Solomon wrote....

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.......10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; 10)

Jews had no expectation of life going on after death in an invisible realm. They were to "sleep" in an unconscious state until they were awakened from their graves in a full body resurrection. Jesus also taught this. When he resurrected his friend Lazarus, he did not take him from the spirit realm and put him back into his body. He resurrected the man by returning his breath and restoring the dead oxygen-starved cells of a man dead 4 days, decomposing in middle eastern heat. If you read the account, Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)

Surely if he had been in a spiritual realm free from the problems pertaining to human flesh, Jesus was doing him no favors by bringing him back to this life, only to die a second time?

At death, life ceases.....it is restored only by Jesus when the foretold resurrection takes place. He said.....

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

Both the righteous and the unrighteous are in the same place.....both are called from their "sleep" to either a continuation of faithful life, or to a period of judgment in which they will have opportunity to learn about God's ways and make adjustments to their attitudes and conduct. Those who have died in ignorance have paid sin's wages, and thanks to Christ's sacrifice, can look forward to an education in what they missed in their lifetime.

So Christianity and Judaism do not get their ideas about life after death from the Bible.

Well surviving death is unprovable. And living after death would only be meaningful if the memory, the heart, mind, and will survive death.

What proveable reality would we go to?

If we exist after death at all, it might be a very unpleasant circumstance. I doubt there would be any creature habitat of any enjoyable means.

If we exist eternally then it would have to be some sort of non physical reality. I don't think matter and physics are worthy of eternal life, and I believe that the physical world is in fact temporal.

But there is very little inclination from what is evident that an afterlife exists. I suppose true love, and objective truth might give one after life inclinations.

Deeje said:

That scenario seems so...."out there" to me. More like something I'd see in a Matrix movie. Why does our existence have to be something involving dreams and illusions....Why can't it be more real....more simple?

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I can imagine from a standpoint of a Christian that my views would seem "out there." But is it really? How is it all that different from a Christian perspective? Is it any more "out there" to believe that we're living in a manifestation of Consciousness than it is that we live in flesh and have a soul that is judged and may reside in Heaven or the Kingdom of God?

Do you have a Christian background, or have you always entertained this belief?

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I was raised Catholic.

The way the Bible describes things matter is real.....Like the universe, we are composed of matter and have senses to provide the data from our reality....and a brain to interpret the data....and it is a reality shared with others. I don't see our own human life as a collective illusion.....why would people assume that it is? What is the "sense experience" that you speak of?

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I have no interest in how the Bible describes things.

As for your question of my "sense experience," will go as far in a debate forum to say that I have observed the temporal death of one very close to me who share the experience and have had personal experiences that support my beliefs. I have gone into more detail elsewhere on the forum, but have no intention in presenting these experiences in this venue.

SalixIncendium said:

I can imagine from a standpoint of a Christian that my views would seem "out there." But is it really? How is it all that different from a Christian perspective? Is it any more "out there" to believe that we're living in a manifestation of Consciousness than it is that we live in flesh and have a soul that is judged and may reside in Heaven or the Kingdom of God?

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Well, I have a very different take on the Christianity that is taught in the scriptures compared to the "Christianity" that is taught in the churches. I do not believe that we "have" a soul or that we are "given" one at some stage of our mortal beginnings. I believe that we "are" a soul.....a living breathing, conscious entity. Before conception, we did not exist and after death we go back to that same state.

I believe that our actions are judged by how much we know, and that heaven is not the place where most of mankind will spend eternity. If God had wanted us in heaven, he would have created us there, like he did the angels. God designed us for a mortal life on earth. When the soul that is "us", breathes its last breath, we cease to exist. There is no consciousness in death...it is like a sleep without dreams.....and eventually, when God has finally cleansed this earth of all wickedness, the dead (all of whom he remembers) will be brought back to life, unaware of the passage of time because all consciousness ceased.

Some who had been in a coma for years, woke up and had no recollection of the passing years.That is what death is like according to the Bible.

SalixIncendium said:

I was raised Catholic.

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Sadly, that explains a lot. I assume that you have Catholic relatives then?

SalixIncendium said:

I have no interest in how the Bible describes things.

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I understand. But I have found it to be an invaluable guide to my life in so many ways...particularly the teachings of Jesus Christ.

SalixIncendium said:

As for your question of my "sense experience," will go as far in a debate forum to say that I have observed the temporal death of one very close to me who share the experience and have had personal experiences that support my beliefs. I have gone into more detail elsewhere on the forum, but have no intention in presenting these experiences in this venue.

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Can you give me a link? I would like to understand your perspective.

Deeje said:

Well, I have a very different take on the Christianity that is taught in the scriptures compared to the "Christianity" that is taught in the churches. I do not believe that we "have" a soul or that we are "given" one at some stage of our mortal beginnings. I believe that we "are" a soul.....a living breathing, conscious entity. Before conception, we did not exist and after death we go back to that same state.

I believe that our actions are judged by how much we know, and that heaven is not the place where most of mankind will spend eternity. If God had wanted us in heaven, he would have created us there, like he did the angels. God designed us for a mortal life on earth. When the soul that is "us", breathes its last breath, we cease to exist. There is no consciousness in death...it is like a sleep without dreams.....and eventually, when God has finally cleansed this earth of all wickedness, the dead (all of whom he remembers) will be brought back to life, unaware of the passage of time because all consciousness ceased.

Some who had been in a coma for years, woke up and had no recollection of the passing years.That is what death is like according to the Bible.

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I worked for years with a JW and picked his brain about his beliefs the entire time, so I am somewhat familiar with what you are saying and I guess the cleansed Earth is what I was referring to as "The Kingdom of God."

Do you have any insight into the reconstitution process? Are the actual bodies reused or are those who are brought back to life or are they given new bodies? I could never get a clear answer on that.

Sadly, that explains a lot. I assume that you have Catholic relatives then?

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My mother and brother (and his family) are Catholic. My daughter identifies as Christian.

I understand. But I have found it to be an invaluable guide to my life in so many ways...particularly the teachings of Jesus Christ.

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For many it is, and I respect that. It, however, has no relevance in my beliefs.

Can you give me a link? I would like to understand your perspective.

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My experiences are scattered about the forum. If you want a specific experience, I'd be glad to PM you the link to one and discuss it in a non-debate venue.

SalixIncendium said:

A member posted a thread here with a link to the following article which suggests that consciousness may not be what drives the human mind; that our actions are driven by a mechanism in our subconscious which creates the personal narrative.

What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

I found reading this article left me pondering about what part of us survives temporal death. Many call the immortal part of us the soul, the spirit, consciousness, etc. But what part of us here on earth carries on after the body and brain dies?

Regardless of what you believe, that if your soul is judged for life's actions and you go to Heaven, or if your consciousness experiences a cycle of rebirths to achieve liberation and release from this cycle, considering the above scientific hypothesis, and knowing that we, as a whole, do not survive temporal death, what part of us continues on?

For those of you that believe that one's soul continues on after temporal death, what part of one's consciousness continues on to the afterlife? Does one remember all that was experienced and one's mind continues into the afterlife completely intact, or is the part of us that is responsible for one's actions, vis-a-vis one's personal narrative, lost and one only retains what is learned in one's experience on earth?

Those of you that believe in a cycle of rebirths, what is the reason one doesn't remember details from last incarnations even though a part of one (I'll call this 'consciousness' for the purpose of this thread) has experienced them? After reading the linked article, I am considering the possibility that the mechanism contained in the subconsciousness, the one which is the personal narrative contained in the brain and that part of us is lost in temporal death, but the experiences themselves are retained in the consciousness, which survives temporal death, but are not remembered in specifics, but in general wisdom and/or knowledge. If you believe in the cycle of rebirth, what are your thoughts on this?

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I'm going to take a somewhat contrarian view here.

What survives our death is the atoms from which we are made.

Those atoms of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, etc, have been around long before us and will be around long after us. The atoms were formed in the interior of stars are when a star died through a supernova. Chemistry will change how they are bonding together, but the atoms themselves endure. The only times they change is when they are radioactive and most of the atoms in our bodies are not. While not precisely eternal, they maintain their form for billions of years, which is doing pretty well.

I see no evidence that anything related to our personal identities survives death, though.

The article distinguishes between a "personal awareness" and the "contents of our consciousness". Consider that our thoughts and emotions (which are a part of the "contents") are subject to change. They do not define who we are. In fact, thoughts have a physical expression in our brains. Machines have been developed that can read thoughts occurring in our brains. Our experiences (which are also part of the "contents") are stored as memories.

This is nothing new. People have long made a distinction between the part of us that observes our mental activity and the mental activity itself. This is a fundamental observation that people figured out long ago and can even be said to be the basis for many forms of meditation.

This notion of who we are is not defined solely by our physical bodies, thought, emotions, or experiences. The idea that these things define us has to do with our ability to identify ourselves with particular mental, emotional, physical, karmic, or whatever forms. We claim them as if they were us by claiming ownership over them: my thoughts, my emotions, my experiences. But it's all temporary, thoughts come and go. The house is not the furniture in it and yet, we might not think of it as home if we replaced the furniture... or would we?

So we are actually always dying and always being reborn every time we let go of old forms and take on new forms. Death in that sense is just change. It doesn't matter if you think everything "ends" when your "life" ends. The notion of the "personal awareness" is self-evident to anyone who takes the time to examine their own consciousness. The existence of the soul is not something up for debate. If you don't believe in the soul, then it just means you haven't really examined who or what you really are. It may be that you regard your identity as inextricably connected to particular thoughts and experiences... revelation: it's not.

The only real question revolves around whether or not the soul survives death. That's the question. That's where the people who think everything ends at the end of your life diverge from the people who believe the soul continues.

SalixIncendium said:

I worked for years with a JW and picked his brain about his beliefs the entire time, so I am somewhat familiar with what you are saying and I guess the cleansed Earth is what I was referring to as "The Kingdom of God."

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Yes....most "Christians" are hard pressed to actually tell you what 'the Kingdom of God' actually is. I prayed the Lord's prayer like a parrot every week in church without a modicum of understanding as to what it was that I was praying for. I discovered after studying the Bible, that the kingdom was "coming" to us...we were not going to it. That was a rather big bombshell in my understanding. The Kingdom is a heavenly government made up of specially chosen former humans who will rule over earthly subjects....most of whom will return to life in a resurrection.

Do you have any insight into the reconstitution process? Are the actual bodies reused or are those who are brought back to life or are they given new bodies? I could never get a clear answer on that.

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Well, scripturally, there is Jesus' reference to "the re-creation", so in the new world, (Matthew 19:28-29; 2 Peter 3:13) if we understand that the actual remains of a person return to the earth in some way and become part of the molecular composition of creation, (decomposed in the ground....burned to ashes in a fire...eaten by sharks or wild animals etc) God will 'recreate' the entire person. i.e. he will reconstruct their body from the existing elements (as he did with Adam) and re-implant their personality and memories, energizing their bodies with the same spirit (breath) that he gave Adam......so they will recognize themselves and their loved ones will too. Because it was never God's intention for loved ones to ever be separated, a reunion of all family members is promised.
It will be an awesome time of great joy! All the resurrections performed in the Bible resulted in such a reunion.

The other aspect of 're-creation' is in the transformation of the "chosen ones" from material creatures to spirit beings in order to exist in the heavenly realm with Jesus. This is what is referred to as being "born again". They experience a new "birth" as spirit creatures. (from water and spirit....baptism in both)
They are seen bringing the benefits of the Kingdom (New Jerusalem) to mankind, resulting in many blessings. (Revelation 21:2-4)

My mother and brother (and his family) are Catholic. My daughter identifies as Christian.

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I see. In Australia there is not a great deal of spirituality left in the population. So those who identify as "Christian" could be anything from spiritually barely alive (suffering from spiritual malnutrition) to those who are described as "fundies". These are the ones who usually tell everyone that they are going to burn in hell.

I have no idea how they could worship such a fiendish god.

My experiences are scattered about the forum. If you want a specific experience, I'd be glad to PM you the link to one and discuss it in a non-debate venue.

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Sure. I like to learn about the beliefs of others and especially what led them to leave one belief system for another.

hey Ponder,
"The only real question revolves around whether or not the soul survives death. That's the question. That's where the people who think everything ends at the end of your life diverge from the people who believe the soul continues."

........Profound........

Stevicus said:

I'm not betting on anything.

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Well if you had to, hypothetically...

let's say you are given a million $, to bet on black (unguided/naturalistic mechanism) or red (intelligent agent)

anything you don't bet on either of these is burned, anything you win goes to your favorite charity-

you can split your bet any way you choose- is it 100% on black? or do you reserve some doubt?





Yeah, I wonder about what happens to those who die on a sinking ship. Their remains end up at the bottom of the ocean, where there's no possibility of going through the standard preparation and funeral rites of whatever religion they're part of. Do their souls remain trapped in Davy Jones' Locker?[/QUOTE]

Yarr, now ye be talking my language! Davy Jones' locker it is.. if they's be unrepentant buccaneers