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My Issues With Romans One

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
One of Roman ones unsubstantiated claims is that gods truth is obvious, so they are with no fault. I've only quoted straight from the chapter, no twisting.

No worries, I know your not twisting the word which why I edited the post.

God's truth can be too simple at times. People tend to overthink it, more than not. But there are still some mysteries yet, that I have not uncovered. So it easy to understand how some people struggle to understand it.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
No worries, I know your not twisting the word which why I edited the post.

God's truth can be too simple at times. People tend to overthink it, more than not. But there are still some mysteries yet, that I have not uncovered. So it easy to understand how some people struggle to understand it.
All this about this chapter is probably pretty straightforward but it's some heavy stuff, and covers a lot of issues quickly. You know if you think about it, the Bible saying people sometimes don't have a choice is sort of what science says but goes into another pretty hot topic which is nurture vs nature.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
All this about this chapter is probably pretty straightforward but it's some heavy stuff, and covers a lot of issues quickly. You know if you think about it, the Bible saying people sometimes don't have a choice is sort of what science says but goes into another pretty hot topic which is nurture vs nature.

It's a lot to take in. I've had to re-read it top to bottom a few times just to keep it fresh in my head. Maybe its just my exhaustion, coming up on 90 hours at work this week, but I get off for 7 days in a few hours so, maybe after some rest I can debate a bit better.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The OP mentions the other scriptural support going on to question Romans 1:28-29. That god takes these "godless" and turns them into evil wicked greedy depravities.
It really says a lot when some "god fearing" priests have taken advantage of their positions and have done great evils and doing great harm to children, while "god ridiculing" non-theists like me work to help children and families. It would seem that verse, along with Psalm 14:1, is wrong.
the Bible saying people sometimes don't have a choice is sort of what science says but goes into another pretty hot topic which is nurture vs nature.
The Bible does give some examples that suggests free will does not exist, such as the verses mentioned how god hardened hearts and gave them to wickedness. Science also is starting to suggest there is no free will. But the concept of non-determinist/Calvinist salvation rests upon free will. Without it, there is no choice to accept Jesus as savior. And if Salvation isn't chosen, but pre-determined, it makes god look even more of a sadist who creates people just to throw them in Hell, destroy them, kill them off, or whatever belief is stated.

I also found this article, supporting the position of arrogance that Paul seems to have had.
https://www.crossway.org/articles/why-theres-no-such-thing-as-an-atheist/
If what Paul says in Romans 1 is true, there is ultimately no such thing as an atheist. Anyone who calls himself one is wrong on at least three fronts.
First, someone who claims to be an atheist is suppressing the truth he knows.
Second, anyone who claims to be an atheist is contradicting the God of truth.
Third, anyone who claims to be an atheist is ignoring his greatest need, and his only hope for its fulfillment. Man’s greatest and ultimate need is God.
...
1. People Know There Is a God
6. People Know They Need a Savior


And it's not just the arrogance of Paul, but the arrogance that many Christians develop believing themselves superior due to their beliefs.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Romans 1;1-13 is just Paul saying how he prayed to God very often the the Romans would share his faith as other Gentiles have. I.e. Paul saying he prayed to God often he would have some converts, some "fruit" in Rome.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have a quite a few issues with Romans chapter One of the Bible. Many of you may have heard of few of my gripes. As I don't want to focus on any sort of appeal to authority this is about who wrote it.

Here is a link for anyone who wants to read any of he verses.

Romans 1:1-13 is pure hubris IMO but we can discuss that further if you like. Who is claiming Paul an apostle and why is it assumed Paul would be the greatest thing to hit Rome, because he has followers?


I don't have much issue with 14-17. Faith is for everyone etc.

In Romans 1:18 however it quickly becomes about god showing its wrath on the wicked. This claim in this verse however says more than evil wickedness, it claims that god shows wrath because of "godlessness and wickedness" and that "truth is suppressed by wickedness". All this is an interesting claim regarding. The part that really gets interesting is in Romans 1:24 where it says, "therefore god gave them to sinful desires". This IMO seems problematic for many reasons. First off it makes god the one creating evil for being rejected. That actually supports other scripture that god hardens hearts.

Continuing in its rejection of "godlessness" Romans 1:28-29 says that god turns those depraved people to "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity"

All this doesn't sound like a god that gives people choices but gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people. Why would God release these evil people on the world allowing such "evil wickedness"? Also why would God turn women and men to lesbian and homosexuals if it's so incorrect Romans 1:26-27? That really sounds like the writers obsession with what Romans were doing.

Sorry if it's a little long. Thoughts? Objections?

No problem... and perhaps, even, good questions.

I always like to look at the complete picture for context and for application... how do you think this verse applies to the following?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Does is specifically talk about what people he is addressing the verses that follows?
 
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David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I have a quite a few issues with Romans chapter One of the Bible. Many of you may have heard of few of my gripes. As I don't want to focus on any sort of appeal to authority this is about who wrote it.

Here is a link for anyone who wants to read any of he verses.

Romans 1:1-13 is pure hubris IMO but we can discuss that further if you like. Who is claiming Paul an apostle and why is it assumed Paul would be the greatest thing to hit Rome, because he has followers?


I don't have much issue with 14-17. Faith is for everyone etc.

In Romans 1:18 however it quickly becomes about god showing its wrath on the wicked. This claim in this verse however says more than evil wickedness, it claims that god shows wrath because of "godlessness and wickedness" and that "truth is suppressed by wickedness". All this is an interesting claim regarding. The part that really gets interesting is in Romans 1:24 where it says, "therefore god gave them to sinful desires". This IMO seems problematic for many reasons. First off it makes god the one creating evil for being rejected. That actually supports other scripture that god hardens hearts.

Continuing in its rejection of "godlessness" Romans 1:28-29 says that god turns those depraved people to "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity"

All this doesn't sound like a god that gives people choices but gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people. Why would God release these evil people on the world allowing such "evil wickedness"? Also why would God turn women and men to lesbian and homosexuals if it's so incorrect Romans 1:26-27? That really sounds like the writers obsession with what Romans were doing.

Sorry if it's a little long. Thoughts? Objections?
idav try something that most people don't do. Go out into the uncivilized savage uncultured world. Look closely at it this uncivilized, savage, place that has but one desire but to kill you and ask is it? It's my home, and it's yours too. Take the bible build a camp fire burn it. Take a math book burn it takes a dictionary art burn it. Watch the smoke rise up and ask yourself " how did books manifest this place, this despicable untamed evil place we call nature" learn to listen. Listen to nature ignore the books. Spend time away. This place I call home is not home for most, it's a dead, resourcing factory filled with defects. Look for defects, I have never seen one.

The reason I say this that due to morphology of language the text is impossible to approach from our time. Trust nature maybe it emerges maybe it doesnt emerge. If you want a book read John Muir. Take a guitar.

Are all religious folks crazy? No and yes!!!! Hildegard Debingen said "we cannot live in an interpreted world. An interpreted world is not home." I say get home, and just be there. It is remarkable the things discovered when we learn to listen to that. The trees begin to be alive, the air becomes alive the sun becomes alive, the separation ceases at some point. Muir said" off to the forest I go to lose my mind and save my soul"good advice if taken seriously.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I have a quite a few issues with Romans chapter One of the Bible. Many of you may have heard of few of my gripes. As I don't want to focus on any sort of appeal to authority this is about who wrote it.

Here is a link for anyone who wants to read any of he verses.

Romans 1:1-13 is pure hubris IMO but we can discuss that further if you like. Who is claiming Paul an apostle and why is it assumed Paul would be the greatest thing to hit Rome, because he has followers?


I don't have much issue with 14-17. Faith is for everyone etc.

In Romans 1:18 however it quickly becomes about god showing its wrath on the wicked. This claim in this verse however says more than evil wickedness, it claims that god shows wrath because of "godlessness and wickedness" and that "truth is suppressed by wickedness". All this is an interesting claim regarding. The part that really gets interesting is in Romans 1:24 where it says, "therefore god gave them to sinful desires". This IMO seems problematic for many reasons. First off it makes god the one creating evil for being rejected. That actually supports other scripture that god hardens hearts.

Continuing in its rejection of "godlessness" Romans 1:28-29 says that god turns those depraved people to "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity"

All this doesn't sound like a god that gives people choices but gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people. Why would God release these evil people on the world allowing such "evil wickedness"? Also why would God turn women and men to lesbian and homosexuals if it's so incorrect Romans 1:26-27? That really sounds like the writers obsession with what Romans were doing.

Sorry if it's a little long. Thoughts? Objections?

You forgot the "because". Because people degenerated from knowledge and worship of the true God to worshiping their bodies and other creative things, it was just for people to do self-destructive things without (constant) correction from above.

However, 1:18 is predicated (as is the whole book) on 1:16 - Paul is unashamed of the saving gospel. Why obsess on the evil that men do when the gospel is the ticket out and home? Why worry about God letting people with free will sin when the absolution for sin is ready and waiting?
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@idav and @Shadow Wolf : in order to engage in an informed exegesis of the introductory chapter from the Epistle to the Romans, it is essential for you both to have some familiarity with the source of Paul's thinking in these passages.

The relevant material can be found in the deuterocanonical Wisdom of Solomon, a Hellenistic Jewish text composed circa 150 BCE - early 1st century BCE that is considered to be sacred scripture by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians, whilst being included in the apocrypha section of most Anglican and Lutheran bibles. Martin Luther translated Wisdom in 1529 for inclusion in his German Bible, penning a lengthy preface to the book. Luther rejected the canonicity of Wisdom but placed a very high value on the book itself for Christian growth. Here is a selection from his much more extensive preface:


[T]here are many good things in this book, and it is well worth reading . . . It pleases me beyond measure that the author here extols the Word of God so highly, and ascribes to the Word all the wonders God has performed, both on enemies and in his saints.

This is the foremost reason why it is well to read this book: one may learn to fear and trust God. To that end may he graciously help us. Amen
.” (Luther’s Works, vol. 35, pp. 343-345).

Accordingly, I would strongly urge you to read a translation of this text from the NRSV Bible, here:


Bible Gateway passage: Wisdom 1 - New Revised Standard Version


Now, as to its influence upon Paul's theology in Romans, here are some snippets from the extensive scholarly literature:


Stephen Barton., Where Shall Wisdom Be Found? Wisdom in the Bible (2005) p. 112:

"Wisdom of Solomon is an important background source for Paul's thought in Romans, especially in his condemnation of human sin and idolatry in Rom 1.18-32. Likewise, his account of the ruler's authority as God-given in Romans 13 owes much to Wisdom 6.1-11"

Linebaugh, A.J. God,. Grace, and Righteousness: Wisdom of Solomon and Paul's Letter to the Romans in Conversation (2011)


"The lexical and thematic parallels between Wisdom 13-15 and Romans 1.18-2.5, and to a lesser extent Wisdom 10-12 (or 10-19) and Romans 9-11, have often been noted"

Watson, F., Paul and the Hermeneutics Of Faith (2004):

"Romans 1:18-32 follows Wisdom 13-14 not just at individual points but in the whole construction of the argument. Both writers argue that the true God might have been known by way of the created order, but that the opportunity has been wasted; that the most fundamental error is the manufacture and worship of idols; that idolatry is the root of all other evils; and that those who commit such sins are subject to divine punishment. While the differences are real and important, there appears to be little or nothing in either text with which the other of the other would have disagreed." (408)

There are many studies by biblical scholars - of all theological persuasions, or lack thereof - which have argued for a close relationship (literary dependence, or at the very least significant allusion and familiarity), between Pauline epistles like Romans, 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians on one hand and the Wisdom of Solomon on the other.

St. Paul must have been very familiar with Wisdom of Solomon and obviously valued it as a reference point, or source of inspiration, for his theology - especially in his condemnation of sin. This is such that in his chapter on "Natural Theology in the Jewish Tradition" in the book Biblical Faith And Natural Theology (1994), the Scottish Old Testament scholar James Barr averred that he would "give pride of place to one particular document, the Wisdom of Solomon; for it shows an unusually high similarity to aspects of Paul's language and thought", stating moreover:


https://www.giffordlectures.org/boo...-theology/4-natural-theology-jewish-tradition


Since he came so close to its diction at a number of points, the probability is that that he knew the book [Wisdom of Solomon], and, if he knew the book, that it did count for him as an authoritative religious text. If not, it does not matter much for our immediate purpose, because it means only that Paul belonged, though independently, to a very similar tradition of thought. That this was so can be demonstrated from another aspect shared by Wisdom and by Paul, an aspect which by common consent should belong very definitely to revealed theology: namely the understanding of the first man, Adam, in relation to death and immortality. To this therefore we have to devote some attention....But all these things, which are lacking in the Genesis text itself, and which are found in Paul and are essential to his argument, are found first in the Wisdom of Solomon and found there together.


Indeed, Paul appears to make allusions to this intertestamental text throughout his letters - even to the extent of basing his introductory argument in Romans upon it. Both texts progress by means of the exact same movement of thought: i.e. the idolaters should have been capable of perceiving God through knowledge from created things, rather than worshipping the creature and so are "without excuse" (Wisdom 13.1-9; Romans 1.19-20); the Gentiles rather turned to the idolatrous worship of created things as gods (Wisdom 13.2,7; Rom. 1.22-23, 25). Their ignorance of God (Wisdom 14.22; Rom. 1.21) in turn resulted in them going on to perpetrate all manner of sinfulness, including murder, theft, deceit and sexual promiscuity (Wisdom 14.22-27; Rom. 1.24, 26-31). God's righteous judgement therefore remains on those who practice such abominable deeds (Wisdom 14.30-31; Romans 1.32).

Dr. Richard Goode of the Newman Research Centre for the Bible has calculated using a "wordcloud" derived from Appendix IV in Novum Testamentum Graece 27th edn that Paul alludes to Wisdom of Solomon throughout his epistles far more than to any other apochryphal/intertestamental text:


Which book of the Apocrypha did Paul use most?


Which book of the Apocrypha did Paul use most?

Bearing in mind Paul’s theology and his mission, as with his use of the Tanakh, it is not particularly surprising to find that he makes the most allusions (by a very long margin) to the Wisdom of Solomon...

The Wisdom of Solomon shares with Paul an inclusive theology in which God is concerned with all human beings (including those outside the Jewish nation) and is universally active. It also explicitly develops the idea of immortality. Importantly, immortality is expressed here as being a gift from God to the righteous, rather than being an inherent quality of the human soul (as in Greek thought)...

Which of Paul’s letters contain most allusions?

By far, the most allusions are found in Paul’s letter to the Romans with a total of 76 instances. The Wisdom of Solomon is particularly prominent, especially within the first few chapters – perhaps reflecting their shared belief that wisdom (and the divine) can be learnt through an observation of creation. In the first chapter it has been claimed that there are ten intertestamental allusions...

It is probably not unexpected that the only letter to contain no allusions is Philemon. It might also be significant that the disputed and Pastoral letters tend to have far fewer instances, perhaps indicating a greater distance between Christian thought and language, and non-canonical Jewish literature.

In other words: should you aspire to properly interpret "Romans" in its first century intellectual context, then you need to read and understand Wisdom of Solomon as a pretext for this exercise, since it is the base text around, or rather upon which, the Apostle Paul frames his argument.

In my next post, I'm going to explain what a contextualized reading of Wisdom and Romans in parallel tells us about how to understand what is being communicated.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
Romans 1;1-13 is just Paul saying how he prayed to God very often the the Romans would share his faith as other Gentiles have. I.e. Paul saying he prayed to God often he would have some converts, some "fruit" in Rome.
All that is hubris including the self appointing of Paul as an apostle of Christ, in verse one I believe. What does that mean when it says he is "set apart from the gospel of god". Pure hubris.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Read the story and deduce the answer yourself. :)
I read it many times, and let me just mention that it is the one narrative that has had more Jewish commentary on it than any other narrative because it simply doesn't make any sense if taken literally as it puts God as being a genocidal maniac.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
@idav as promised above, here is my contextualized reading of Romans understood in parallel to its base text in Wisdom. I hope you find it useful. I've had to split it into two posts.

(1)

Wisdom of Solomon, the text which Paul uses as the cornerstone of his argument in the Epistle to the Romans, has been described in a recent scholarly article by Drew J. Strait as an "explicit critique of the Roman imperial cults...[intended to] censure the origins and material representation of deified political authority (Wis 14:16–21)" [Strait, D.J. 'The Wisdom of Solomon, Ruler Cults, and Paul’s Polemic against Idols in the Areopagus Speech,' published in Journal of Biblical Literature, Volume 136, Number 3, (2017), pp. 609-632]. He continues:


The Wisdom of Solomon is traditionally divided into three sections: 1:1–6:21 (Book of Eschatology); 6:22–10:21 (Book of Wisdom); and chapters 11–19 (Book of History).35 A recurring motif in all three sections is a negative portrayal of gentile rulers, including a criticism of Roman hegemony through a mini-apocalyptic scenario (Wis 5:17–23); a censure of rulers’ embellished ontological status through the example of Solomon (7:1–10);36 and a polemic against rulers’ cultic media (14:16–21).

That Ps.-Solomon directs his criticism toward the Roman imperial cults becomes acute in the Book of History’s digressio on pagan idolatry (13:1– 15:19).

The aesthetic quality of the imperial image blurs the distinction between human and divine, thus leading the multitudes to deify their ruler, who “a little before had been honored as a human being [τιμηθέντα ἄνθρωπον]” (v. 20). To resist divine honors, Ps.-Solomon recontextualizes Isaiah’s polemic against idols for a new imperial context in Roman Egypt....


Likewise, scholars have interpreted the letter to the Romans within the very same paradigm. This is quite a long quote but please read it:


Paul and Caesar: A New Reading of Romans


Paul and Caesar: A New Reading of Romans

(Originally published in A Royal Priesthood: The Use of the Bible Ethically and Politically, ed. C. Bartholemew, 2002, Carlisle: Paternoster, 173–193. Reproduced by permission of the author.)​

In the Mediterranean world where Paul exercised his vocation as the apostle to the Gentiles, the pagans, the fastest growing religion was the Imperial cult, the worship of Caesar...Paul’s anti-imperial stance is part of a wider strain in his thinking...the confrontation between the gospel and the powers of the world...

Romans is by no means unique in having this apparent covert reference to, and subversion of, Caesar.[13] I have written elsewhere of how Philippians 2:5-11 and 3:19-21 can be seen to have explicit reference to the imperial cult and theme, with, once more, the main thrust that Jesus Christ is the true kyrios of the world, so that of course Caesar is not...Here not for the last time we find fascinating parallels between Paul and the roughly contemporary Wisdom of Solomon, which addresses the rulers of the world with the news that Israel’s God is the true God who not only gives wisdom to rulers, but who will vindicate his people against pagan oppression...

The accession of the emperor, and also his birthday, could therefore be hailed as euaggelion, good news. The emperor was the kyrios, the lord of the world, the one who claimed the allegiance and loyalty of subjects throughout his wide empire. When he came in person to pay a state visit to a colony or province, the word for his royal presence was parousia.

With all this in mind, we open the first page of Paul’s letters as they stand in the New Testament, and what do we find?[10] We find Paul, writing a letter to the church in Rome itself, introducing himself as the accredited messenger of the one true God. He brings the gospel, the euaggelion, of the son of God, the Davidic Messiah, whose messiahship and divine sonship are validated by his resurrection, and who, as the Psalms insist, is the Lord, the kyrios, of the whole world. Paul’s task is to bring the world, all the nations, into loyal allegiance —hypakoē pisteos, the obedience of faith — to this universal Lord. He is eager to announce this euaggelion in Rome, without shame, because this message is the power of God which creates salvation for all who are loyal to it, Jew and Greek alike. Why is this? Because in this message (this ‘gospel of the son of God’), the justice of God, the dikaiosynē theou, is unveiled...

The Wisdom of Solomon offers an instructive parallel. Paul, drawing upon these sources and rereading them around Jesus Christ and the Spirit, has given them new focus and application...Paul has framed this great letter with an introduction and a theological conclusion which seem so clearly to echo, and thus to challenge, the rule of Caesar with the rule of Jesus Christ...


(continued....)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Here is an important quotation from Wisdom 14:12–21 pertaining to this:


For the idea of making idols was the beginning of fornication, and the invention of them was the corruption of life...

15 For a father, consumed with grief at an untimely bereavement, made an image of his child, who had been suddenly taken from him; he now honored as a god what was once a dead human being, and handed on to his dependents secret rites and initiations. 16 Then the ungodly custom, grown strong with time, was kept as a law, and at the command of monarchs carved images were worshiped. 17 When people could not honor monarchs in their presence, since they lived at a distance, they imagined their appearance far away, and made a visible image of the king whom they honored, so that by their zeal they might flatter the absent one as though present.

18 Then the ambition of the artisan impelled even those who did not know the king to intensify their worship. 19 For he, perhaps wishing to please his ruler, skillfully forced the likeness to take more beautiful form, 20 and the multitude, attracted by the charm of his work, now regarded as an object of worship the one whom shortly before they had honored as a human being. 21 And this became a hidden trap for humankind, because people, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared...

23 For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs...

Understood in context, Romans is not arguing in favour of a "God who gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people", nor is Paul even referring specifically to atheists or even all idol-worshipping pagans, even less declaring that divine judgement is coming to condemn them all. Indeed, if you read just a little later into the epistle, you will find that Paul explicitly praises non-believing Gentiles who adhere to their God-given conscience as earnestly as possible (comparing them positively with Jews, and presumably Christians, who know the revealed law of God yet do not live in accordance with it) and opines that their sincerity may lead God to excuse their idolatry/rejection of the Judaeo-Christian God on Judgement Day:


"When Gentiles who have not the [revealed] law [of God] do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my Gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." (Rom 2:14-16)

In Wisdom we likewise find that the learned Jewish author accounted "nature-worship" as being the least culpable variety of idolatry. Human beings, misled by the beauty and power of created things, considered them to be gods (Wisdom 6-7). The author, therefore, partly excuses such idolatry as arising from a sincere, if ultimately misplaced, search for the true Creator of the cosmos:


Wisdom 13

13 For all people who were ignorant of God...were unable from the good things that are seen to know the one who exists, nor did they recognize the artisan while paying heed to his works; 2 but they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air, or the circle of the stars, or turbulent water, or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world. 3 If through delight in the beauty of these things people assumed them to be gods, let them know how much better than these is their Lord, for the author of beauty created them.

5 For from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator. 6 Yet these people are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray while seeking God and desiring to find him.

This concession is explicitly tied in both Wisdom and Romans to the all-embracing nature of the divine love, which extends - in an inclusive fashion and without deference - to all living beings:


Wisdom of Solomon 11:21-26; 12:1-2

23 But you are merciful to all, for you can do all things, and you overlook people’s sins, so that they may repent. 24 For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. 25 How would anything have endured if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? 26 You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.

12 For your immortal spirit is in all things. 2 Therefore you correct little by little those who trespass, and you remind and warn them of the things through which they sin, so that they may be freed from wickedness and put their trust in you, O Lord.

No, rather the passages you refer to @idav in your discussion with @Shadow Wolf and the entire letter itself is written as a subversive treatise designed to undermine, subtly and without incurring the punitive action of the Roman state, the intellectual foundations of the Roman "imperial cult" which elevated a mere human being to divine status (a priest-king) and mandated his worship as a living god.

The author of Wisdom argues that this cult, justifying absolutist rule in the form of a supremely all-powerful God-Emperor, arose from imperial misappropriation of "mystery cults" where practitioners engaged in all manner of sordid and debased behaviour that originally arose from human beings becoming inconsolable at the untimely death of their children and then fashioning idols of stone, which they then worshipped and passed on to others in the form of secretive rites.

He explains how the monarchs who “lived far off ” and the subjects who “flatter the absent one as though present” (14:17), recognised the efficacy for bolstering royal power offered by these popularly revered idols, and the way in which re-fashioning them in the form of the imperial image would induce awe and, consequently, honor from the imperial subjects - solidifying Roman control.

By contrast to this, the religion proclaimed by Paul taught that God had become incarnated solely and uniquely in the son of a Jewish carpenter who had been executed as a condemned criminal - a man at the lowest level of the social ladder; a pauper riding about on a donkey without any political power. He alone was the true "Caesar", the "Lord", "the King of Kings". And Paul understood himself to be the messenger of this "kingdom" to the Gentile, Roman world.

This belief made it impossible to "deify" political rulers and the state in the way that ancient polytheistic peoples had with their priest-kings. The real and only Son of God, in the Christian mindset, hadn't had any earthly power at all. Ideologically, the political order was to be stripped of religious trappings or sacral underpinnings.

As the scholar in the aforementioned study notes:

In one of the most powerful moves within the fresh perspective I am proposing, Paul’s treatment of the cross [is described] as the means of the defeat of the powers. As everyone in the Roman world knew well, the cross already had a clear symbolic meaning; it meant that Caesar ruled the world, with cruel death as his ultimate, and regular, weapon.[22] For Paul, throughout his writings, the cross is far more than simply the means whereby individual sins are forgiven, though of course it is that as well. It is the means whereby the powers are defeated and overthrown (1 Cor. 2:6-8; Col. 2:13-15). The resurrection demonstrates that the true God has a power utterly superior to that of Caesar. The cross is thus to be seen, with deep and rich paradox, as the secret power of this true God, the power of self-giving love which (as Jesus said it would) subverts the power of the tyrant (Mk. 10:35-45).
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I have a quite a few issues with Romans chapter One of the Bible. Many of you may have heard of few of my gripes. As I don't want to focus on any sort of appeal to authority this is about who wrote it.

Here is a link for anyone who wants to read any of he verses.

Romans 1:1-13 is pure hubris IMO but we can discuss that further if you like. Who is claiming Paul an apostle and why is it assumed Paul would be the greatest thing to hit Rome, because he has followers?


I don't have much issue with 14-17. Faith is for everyone etc.

In Romans 1:18 however it quickly becomes about god showing its wrath on the wicked. This claim in this verse however says more than evil wickedness, it claims that god shows wrath because of "godlessness and wickedness" and that "truth is suppressed by wickedness". All this is an interesting claim regarding. The part that really gets interesting is in Romans 1:24 where it says, "therefore god gave them to sinful desires". This IMO seems problematic for many reasons. First off it makes god the one creating evil for being rejected. That actually supports other scripture that god hardens hearts.

Continuing in its rejection of "godlessness" Romans 1:28-29 says that god turns those depraved people to "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity"

All this doesn't sound like a god that gives people choices but gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people. Why would God release these evil people on the world allowing such "evil wickedness"? Also why would God turn women and men to lesbian and homosexuals if it's so incorrect Romans 1:26-27? That really sounds like the writers obsession with what Romans were doing.

Sorry if it's a little long. Thoughts? Objections?


First of all God doesn't give anyone over to sinful desire, people chooses sinful desire.
Just because a person chooses to do sinful desires is no fault of God's.

God doesn't turn men or women to Lesbian and homosexualit. They chose the desire to do those things. It's their free will, to do what is right or to do what is wrong. It's their choice.
There are two paths in Life that a person can choose to go down.
One path leads to God and eternal life.
One path leads to Satan and eternal damnation.
It depends on what path a person wants to chose for themselves in their Life.
No one's forcing them on which path to go down, That's their free will. They make their own choices in Life.

No more than a person hears a train coming and goes right ahead and walks out in front of it. So is it the trains fault or the person fault?

As for who's claiming Paul as Apostle Christ Jesus himself and the other Apostles that's who.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
First of all God doesn't give anyone over to sinful desire
We've already cited Bible verses that state otherwise.
God doesn't turn men or women to Lesbian and homosexualit. They chose the desire to do those things.
People do not choose their sexual orientation. Homosexuals choose to be homosexual no more or less than a heterosexual chooses to be heterosexual.
It's their free will, to do what is right or to do what is wrong. It's their choice.
It has not been established that this "free will" exists. Even some Christian denominations reject it.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I read it many times, and let me just mention that it is the one narrative that has had more Jewish commentary on it than any other narrative because it simply doesn't make any sense if taken literally as it puts God as being a genocidal maniac.

Ok so why do you take it as literal?
 
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