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Did God lie (or mislead) or did He not?

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I'm actually quite surprised that, in another thread, I posted something that I was certain would raise some serious discussion -- and yet, for over a week, it has remained the last post in the thread -- silence!

I said:
To add one more comment to my thoughts on a "New Covenant," I just need to point out that God, being outside of time and therefore omniscient about past, present and future, knew of a certainty when he made the Old Covenant, that he was lying through his metaphorical teeth, since he knew he was planning to replace it.

How does that square with your exegesis?
There are different sorts of covenants in the Bible, but I think the important ones are:
  1. Noah -- never to destroy the earth again, that one's just a promise by God, not a two-sided agreement
  2. Abrahamic -- God promises that Abraham's descendants will always be God's chosen people, and that He will always be their God.
  3. The "New Covenant" through Christ, which Christians believe replaces the "Old Covenant" (the Abrahamic one).
Ignoring the first, then, it really does seem to me that if God is what all Christians and Jews (and Muslims, for that matter) claim Him to be -- omniscient through existing outside of time, and thus able to see all of it -- then God knew at the (human) time of the Abrahamic Covenant that it would be replaced.

Is this a lie? Is it misleading? Or is it just that humans didn't have the heart to delete the old words when thy decided on some new ones?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
LoL Moses couldn't even step off the mountain and folks were breaking the first commandment, Lol. Who are you saying broke the covenants, God?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
omniscient through existing outside of time, and thus able to see all of it
God has plans for the future that shall be implemented no matter what, as to God being omniscient, i.e. seeing all future, that is just not true. The future is not set in diamond cement. If God wants anything to happen, it must be done by planning and power. This is possible to demonstrate by scripture.

Abraham's covenant:
Genesis 13: 14 And Jehovah said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art, northward and southward and eastward and westward: 15 for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then may thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for unto thee will I give it.
Genesis 22:18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.​

The hard explanation, but the inspired one
Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman. 23 Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise. 24 Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 Howbeit what saith the scripture? Cast out the handmaid and her son: for the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. 31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman.
In this explanation by Paul, those of fleshly Israel are not Israel, and a fleshly Jew is not a Jew, but those born of spirit are Israel and Jew though they might be born in the flesh as Gentile.

Romans 9: 6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
Romans 2:
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.​
While all scripture was inspired and only fleshly Jews were used for this, we are here told that those who are of Israel, and Jews, are the ones who are so after spirit, be they Gentile or Jew -- these are the children of Abraham, the ones of promise.

The subject is obviously difficult. However, when you read the prophecies of the OT, not the historical accounts, you have to remember that these now apply to spiritual Israel, not to fleshly Israel.
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Is there any verse in the Bible that says the old covenant was replaced? The old covenant contains the Ten Commandments and Jesus told peuple to "keep the commandments". The old covenant makes certain promises to the Hebrew people and the new covenant extends those promises to non-Hebrew people. Why can't both still be in force?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
  • Noah -- never to destroy the earth again, that one's just a promise by God, not a two-sided agreement
  • Abrahamic -- God promises that Abraham's descendants will always be God's chosen people, and that He will always be their God.
  • The "New Covenant" through Christ, which Christians believe replaces the "Old Covenant" (the Abrahamic one).

You misunderstand basic principles so it looks misleading, but it's not.

1. God promised not to flood the earth again. He did not say he would not destroy the earth again. Genesis 9:11 backs this up.

Genesis 9:11

11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

2. So your saying that God has abandoned the Jewish people? I assure you he has not. They are still his chosen people, and always will be.

3. The New Covenant does not replace the Old. God's covenant with the Jews is still in place, as it is for the Jews. The New Covenant is for anyone who is not Christian so that they can become Christian. While that could apply to a Jewish person who wishes to convert to Christianianity. All Jewish people are not required to convert, because the old covenant is a "grandfather clause", more or less.

So you see because you misunderstand basic principles of Christianity/Judaism. You have been led astray and arrive at whacky deductions that are pure nonesense.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Is there any verse in the Bible that says the old covenant was replaced? The old covenant contains the Ten Commandments and Jesus told peuple to "keep the commandments". The old covenant makes certain promises to the Hebrew people and the new covenant extends those promises to non-Hebrew people. Why can't both still be in force?
The Commandments are more than just the ten.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I'm actually quite surprised that, in another thread, I posted something that I was certain would raise some serious discussion -- and yet, for over a week, it has remained the last post in the thread -- silence!

I said:

There are different sorts of covenants in the Bible, but I think the important ones are:
  1. Noah -- never to destroy the earth again, that one's just a promise by God, not a two-sided agreement
  2. Abrahamic -- God promises that Abraham's descendants will always be God's chosen people, and that He will always be their God.
  3. The "New Covenant" through Christ, which Christians believe replaces the "Old Covenant" (the Abrahamic one).
Ignoring the first, then, it really does seem to me that if God is what all Christians and Jews (and Muslims, for that matter) claim Him to be -- omniscient through existing outside of time, and thus able to see all of it -- then God knew at the (human) time of the Abrahamic Covenant that it would be replaced.

Is this a lie? Is it misleading? Or is it just that humans didn't have the heart to delete the old words when thy decided on some new ones?

I think that Christian ideas are consistent with the Old Testament covenants.

Christians see Jesus as a blood sacrifice. Without the old testiment to back up the claim that blood sacrifices are effective ways of absolving sin, then Jesus was just some dude who got executed, and not the sacrifice that absolves the OT law's punishments for sin.

It's not replacing anything, it's just being consistent.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm actually quite surprised that, in another thread, I posted something that I was certain would raise some serious discussion -- and yet, for over a week, it has remained the last post in the thread -- silence!

I said:

There are different sorts of covenants in the Bible, but I think the important ones are:
  1. Noah -- never to destroy the earth again, that one's just a promise by God, not a two-sided agreement
  2. Abrahamic -- God promises that Abraham's descendants will always be God's chosen people, and that He will always be their God.
  3. The "New Covenant" through Christ, which Christians believe replaces the "Old Covenant" (the Abrahamic one).
Ignoring the first, then, it really does seem to me that if God is what all Christians and Jews (and Muslims, for that matter) claim Him to be -- omniscient through existing outside of time, and thus able to see all of it -- then God knew at the (human) time of the Abrahamic Covenant that it would be replaced.

Is this a lie? Is it misleading? Or is it just that humans didn't have the heart to delete the old words when thy decided on some new ones?

I think it is more of an interpretive issue here and thus not a lie. I plan on changing my will to a better one, but it doesn't make my first Will and Testament a lie.

As I understand it, #3 is incorrect. IMV, the Old Covenant is not "the Abrahamic one" but rather the one that was through Moses. The New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant included all nations and not just the Jewish nation.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
I'm actually quite surprised that, in another thread, I posted something that I was certain would raise some serious discussion -- and yet, for over a week, it has remained the last post in the thread -- silence!

I said:

There are different sorts of covenants in the Bible, but I think the important ones are:
  1. Noah -- never to destroy the earth again, that one's just a promise by God, not a two-sided agreement
  2. Abrahamic -- God promises that Abraham's descendants will always be God's chosen people, and that He will always be their God.
  3. The "New Covenant" through Christ, which Christians believe replaces the "Old Covenant" (the Abrahamic one).
Ignoring the first, then, it really does seem to me that if God is what all Christians and Jews (and Muslims, for that matter) claim Him to be -- omniscient through existing outside of time, and thus able to see all of it -- then God knew at the (human) time of the Abrahamic Covenant that it would be replaced.

Is this a lie? Is it misleading? Or is it just that humans didn't have the heart to delete the old words when thy decided on some new ones?
'outside' of time?

I do not believe in time as a force or a substance
so God cannot be outside of it

but to say He is not moving in a linear fashion.....forward only.....
does not indicate He forgets the past
nor is He in the future any more than we are
He is likely moving with us

so....like us.....
He might promise, never again an action
but not because He can see the future

but rather the immediate result of the action may have played to a lesser desired effect

would He not know the result before hand?
not if He gave us free will
(hence the forbidden fruit test in the garden)
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
God has plans for the future that shall be implemented no matter what, as to God being omniscient, i.e. seeing all future, that is just not true. The future is not set in diamond cement. If God wants anything to happen, it must be done by planning and power. This is possible to demonstrate by scripture.
Can you not read the complete inconsistencies in your own sentences?
  • "God has plans for the future that shall be implemented no matter what"
  • "Bod being omniscient, i.e. seeing all the future, that is just not true."
Those two statements contradict one another completely.
  • "If God wants anything to happen, it must be done by planning and power."
This one contradicts itself. Power doesn't require planning -- power enables. Planned or not, power can make it so.

I ignored the scripture you quoted, because they only serve to muddy the waters. Either God has complete power to make things happen (in which case He knows the future because He has complete power to dictate the future) or He does not. If He does, making a covenant that he plans to abandon is disingenuous (to say the least). If He does not, then you have no reason to suppose that whatever He wants to happen must happen.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
if God knows all of the future
then His existence and His life are stagnant

nothing to gain

like a photograph taken nothing about Him is moving
He has no influence
the future is fixed
 
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