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Are we born sinful?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
croak
Trickster
We are all born pure. There is no such thing as Original Sin. How can we be blamed for someone else's mistake? It's like saying: "Your father killed many people without mercy, so you must have inherited his bloodthirsty nature. You must be killed."
And sin isn't always killing, it can be something as simple as cursing someone. So, if one of your great-grandparents cursed the teacher in class, you can't be allowed to speak in class? Same concept as Original Sin. It is something you inherit. And it's obvious that babies are not going to disobey you (e.g. don't go near the fire)because of some inherited thing. They'll disobey you because they don't know any better.
And sin isn't always killing, it can be something as simple as cursing someone. So, if one of your great-grandparents cursed the teacher in class, you can't be allowed to speak in class? Same concept as Original Sin. It is something you inherit. And it's obvious that babies are not going to disobey you (e.g. don't go near the fire)because of some inherited thing. They'll disobey you because they don't know any better.
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
i agree. but we are also in debt to our previous karma and what we did in our previous lives, good or bad. they affect our position in this life, but we arent born sinful. we are born according to what we made ourselves.
martha
Active Member
It's a funny thing but I thought I had the answer, as I posted. Upon reflection some thoughts came to mind. A quote from the Bible haunts me. It is a long quote so please bear with me. Romans 7:13;15 17, 18 thru 23
" I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate. So then it is no longer that I do it, but sin which dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but the sin which dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members." Well I don't know what to think now.
Are we born with a propensity towards following the sins of the flesh (I don't mean sex only)?
Is it the gift of reason that guides us away from sin? If we left a child alone all of it's life, and then introduced it to others, would it kill arbitrarily, would it inflict pain without thought or remorse? Is it man who puts the definition to the word sin. Would God create his children with a desire to sin or is it taught by man. :help:
Boy this is a good thread. I think I am going with the "taught by man" theory.
Joyfully in Jesus,
Martha
" I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate. So then it is no longer that I do it, but sin which dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but the sin which dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members." Well I don't know what to think now.
Are we born with a propensity towards following the sins of the flesh (I don't mean sex only)?
Is it the gift of reason that guides us away from sin? If we left a child alone all of it's life, and then introduced it to others, would it kill arbitrarily, would it inflict pain without thought or remorse? Is it man who puts the definition to the word sin. Would God create his children with a desire to sin or is it taught by man. :help:
Boy this is a good thread. I think I am going with the "taught by man" theory.
Joyfully in Jesus,
Martha
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Not Catholic teaching martha. We are born into original sin and live in a state of concupisense (a proclivity towards sin)... only by the grace of God can we live a moral life.martha said:
No baby left alone would grow up without sin.... it would have happend by now.... odds are!
Mary was the only human born without sin.
Blessings in your continuing education,
Scott
martha
Active Member
Your blessings and guidence are greatly appreciated. I had a feeling that some day someone would bring me to task on claiming Catholic as my religion, when I have certain issues with our teachings.
Are we born with original sin for the sole purpose of having God (Jesus) redeem us? Was it God's intention to make us sinful? If God is incapable of sin,which we are taught, how could He create us sinful? To what end beloved? Perhaps you might say to show His great mercy, or to the Glory of His name. He does not need we children to justify Him. I think sin and evil are seperate entities. They have seen God and have chosen to withdraw from the light of His unconditional love. They choose to sin and go against all the good He has created. I believe He instilled the knowledge of good and evil within our souls and it is we who make the choice. God does not force us to love or follow Him.
Sometimes I think I contradict myself and that I am actually debating myself, not others.
Still seeking wisdom, I remain;
Joyfully in Jesus,
Martha
Are we born with original sin for the sole purpose of having God (Jesus) redeem us? Was it God's intention to make us sinful? If God is incapable of sin,which we are taught, how could He create us sinful? To what end beloved? Perhaps you might say to show His great mercy, or to the Glory of His name. He does not need we children to justify Him. I think sin and evil are seperate entities. They have seen God and have chosen to withdraw from the light of His unconditional love. They choose to sin and go against all the good He has created. I believe He instilled the knowledge of good and evil within our souls and it is we who make the choice. God does not force us to love or follow Him.
Sometimes I think I contradict myself and that I am actually debating myself, not others.
Still seeking wisdom, I remain;
Joyfully in Jesus,
Martha
martha
Active Member
Would you please define for all who come to this place, what the catholic definition of original sin is? I think it would be helpful to all, in regards to continuing this discussion. Give a little more detail and keep it simple, please. In plain english so to speak. It would be beneficial to me personally, Scott to hear it explained again.
Thanking you in advance I remain,
Joyfully in Jesus,
Martha
Thanking you in advance I remain,
Joyfully in Jesus,
Martha
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
This is maybe a tad off-topic, but I think it relates well enough.
Anyhow, it's always bugged me that there is nothing in the bible which speaks of mary being born without sin. Like purgatory, limbo, etc., the Immaculate Conception seems to be a purely Catholic invention.
skills101
Vicar of Christ
Exactly. I don't know about you, but my mother ran a daycare at our home, so I constantly experienced child behavior. When one kid had the ball, you could assure yourself that another would come and hit the baby, then steal the ball.Sunstone said:
I disagree. My definition of sin is a breach of moral values. I definitely see a child hitting another child as a qualification for sin.Lightkeeper said:
martha said:
Yes, I do believe that people decide at some point whether it is right or wrong for them to kill (although I'm not so sure what people think when it's reflex, self-defense, instantaneous urge out of nowhere). I guess the reason I believe this way is that there are people who are mentally ill or mentally handicapped that do not understand that they've done something wrong in killing someone. I do not think that they have sinned, because they did not understand the gravity of their actions. I'm not sure what to call it though...they have definitely done something wrong, but not necessarily through their own moral lapse.
Runt
Well-Known Member
A newborn child does not know the difference between good and evil. Furthermore, a newborn child can't unknowingly commit evil; it has neither the mental nor the physical capacity to do so. As it grows older it begins doing actions that its parents may consider good or evil, but it does not understand the difference between the two. Instead, it only sees that one action angers or worries its parents, and another pleases its parents. It appear to be "choosing between good and evil", but it is really only choosing between actions that anger or please its parents. Later it begins to learn WHY some of its actions are believed to be good or evil by its parents, and begins to choose between what it understands to be "right" and what it understands to be "wrong". Later in its life it begins to decide for itself what actions are "right" and what actions are "wrong".
A child, therefore, is not born "sinful". Rather, it begins to unknownly and later knowningly display behavior considered evil by its parents, then knowingly choose between behavior it understands to be right or wrong, and yet later knowingly choose between behavior it has determined to be right or wrong.
A child, therefore, is not born "sinful". Rather, it begins to unknownly and later knowningly display behavior considered evil by its parents, then knowingly choose between behavior it understands to be right or wrong, and yet later knowingly choose between behavior it has determined to be right or wrong.
martha
Active Member
Yes Lintu, what should we call this, perhaps sins with qualifications. How does one address these actions? Compassion, forgiveness and understanding is the key. " Let those among you who are without sin, cast the first stone." Whenever I start to point a finger at someone else's actions, I stop and reflect upon my own behavior at certain times in my life. Then I put that finger down. Another quote is brought to mind. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."Lintu said:
Unconditional love is a difficult lesson to learn, but I think in most instances it is worth the effort.
Perhaps sin is in the eye of the beholder.
Oh boy I know I will be called to task on that last line.
Mind you now folks, I said perhaps.Joyfully,
Martha
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't want to post the entire teaching, but I will post some important points and I suggest that you educate yourself by reading the Catechism.martha said:
389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the "reverse side" of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.
413 "God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. . . It was through the devil's envy that death entered the world" (Wis 1:13; 2:24).
414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.
415 "Although set by God in a state of rectitude man, enticed by the evil one, abused his freedom at the very start of history. He lifted himself up against God, and sought to attain his goal apart from him" (GS 13 § 1).
416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.
417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".
418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").
419 "We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, "by propagation, not by imitation" and that it is. . . 'proper to each'" (Paul VI, CPG § 16).
420 The victory that Christ won over sin has given us greater blessings than those which sin had taken from us: "where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Rom 5:20).
421 Christians believe that "the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator's love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . ." (GS 2 § 2).
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Come on C.... we've covered this before..... the Bible is not the only source for truth in our faith.Ceridwen018 said:
The Apostles and followers of Christ were teaching the faith well before the Gospels were written and it was the Catholic Church that decided what books to put in and which to keep out.
Purely Catholic invention? You betcha. We can do that, Christ said so.
Scott
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Yeah I know that, but why don't other protestant denominations come up with their own little ideas? In fact, that's why most of them left the Catholic church, is it not? Because they diasagreed with all of this non-biblical stuff?
Basically, I don't see why all of the extra stuff is necessary. Why is it necessary for people to believe that Mary was immacualtely conceived? Why is it necessary for people to believe in purgatory? If these things were so important, wouldn't god have put them in the bible?
Oy veh.Purely Catholic invention? You betcha. We can do that, Christ said so.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
The entire Protestant faith for the most part has come up with their own "little ideas".... sola scriptura, sola fide..... all inventions of man..... and there is a new Protestant off shoot being born every 23 seconds it seems all claiming to know the truth!Ceridwen018 said:
Our claim, in my opinion, is a bit different: Christ tought the Apostles and the Apostles chose the men to follow them, and so on and so on.... in an unbroken line from St Peter to John Paul II. No other organization in WORLD HISTORY can say that, religious or otherwise.
... and there are many reasons why Protestants left the Church.... many of them quite justified in doing so.
Again C, you are going by the mistaken assumption that all truth comes from the Bible.... Scripture and Tradition are of equal importance.
It is necessary for people to believe in the IC because the Church said so... and the Church is the pillar and bullwark of the truth.........
.... however, it is not necessary for ones salvation to believe.... meaning that ignorance of the dogma will not send you to hell.
Oy vey yourself beautiful!
Scott
t3gah
Well-Known Member
When I took care of my nephews they seemed to like testing me by doing things they knew were wrong. I've heard from parents that their children also did the same thing. I used to care for my friends children when she was at work, since I worked nights, when I lived in Austin, TX. Her children were like little angels when I took care of them, but when they were home in their own little environment that was another story. Not to say that she couldn't take care of her own kids, but man, those kids did all kinds of things that got them a spanking. It might have been because I was there, which is what we both thought it might have been.
But this sinning tendency. Can it be observed?? Are some people prone to sin? Is the majority immune from sinning?
Well, the jails and prisons seem to be bursting at the seams. People have domestic desputes all over the globe. And I could go on and on, but the answer has to be yes and no, I think.
But this sinning tendency. Can it be observed?? Are some people prone to sin? Is the majority immune from sinning?
Well, the jails and prisons seem to be bursting at the seams. People have domestic desputes all over the globe. And I could go on and on, but the answer has to be yes and no, I think.
No*s
Captain Obvious
I checked both "We are born sinful" and "we are born innocent."
"Sin" means falling short of a goal, missing. It doesn't, inherantly, denote guilt. My Church doesn't teach that guilt is inherited, but only a condition in which our bodies are imperfect and subject to corruption and death. I think my proof of that is, well, life. We are all born imperfect, and we will all die.
The only dispute here concerns whether we can escape that, but that's another question.
"Sin" means falling short of a goal, missing. It doesn't, inherantly, denote guilt. My Church doesn't teach that guilt is inherited, but only a condition in which our bodies are imperfect and subject to corruption and death. I think my proof of that is, well, life. We are all born imperfect, and we will all die.
The only dispute here concerns whether we can escape that, but that's another question.